Any Christian philosophers in the group? Question about Trinity explanation -

daveleau

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Hi everybody!

It's been a while, but I'm glad to see that while the forums' look has been updated, it appears the same layout and rules are in place.

I have a question about something I've been thinking of, and want to run it by someone who is steeped in philosophy.

Regarding the Trinity, we as Christians often really fall down in trying to explain It. We use a lot of analogies that always break down, and most often fall into modalism, which is un-good. In describing the Trinity, what do you think about linking the perfection of God into the description? I've heard it said that perfection is indivisible. God's nature is perfect. God, Jesus and Holy Spirit share the same perfect nature. Therefore, it is indivisible. Before you think I'm going all Unitarian, as I'm not...or at least I don't think I am, the perfect nature CAN be expressed differently.

As I was out riding my bike today, I thought about a perfect gem - imagine such a thing exists. A perfect gemstone is perfect whether it is mounted in a setting, displayed in a glass case or protected in a vault. Each of these is a different expression, of sorts, of the same perfect gem. What if we were to suggest God's perfect nature was expressed in three different ways - The Father, The Parakletos - Jesus, The Other Parakletos - Holy Spirit. God's nature is not defined by location or what physically houses It. But, the roles of the Three are different. They are separate expressions of the same perfect nature. This is how I imagine the Triune nature of God.

Muslims and Jews claim we are polytheists. But, I think this is a lack of understanding God's attributes and what perfection means (it's indivisible).

What do you think?

Thanks for any discussion-
Dave
 
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tdidymas

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Your analogy borders on modalism. I suggest you think about the nature of God being all His attributes simultaneously, as opposed to perfection only. God is just as much just as He is merciful, just as much love as righteous, just as much transcending as perfect, etc. If you say "expressed in 3 different ways" you are more modalistic here than trinitarian in this statement. Trins declare that God is 3 persons yet is one God. In order for the Father to love the Son there must be relationship between them. I try to include the fact that since the universe is multidimensional by nature, then God must be multidimensional in His nature, even moreso, since He transcends the universe. And since God transcends the universe, it may be pointless to try to explain His triune nature by using parts of creation as analogies. Just about anything done this way is going to be inadequate. Trinitarian belief is summed up in these 3 statements:
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Divine Persons
Each Divine Person is fully God
There is only one God
TD:)
 
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Catherineanne

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Hi everybody!

It's been a while, but I'm glad to see that while the forums' look has been updated, it appears the same layout and rules are in place.

I have a question about something I've been thinking of, and want to run it by someone who is steeped in philosophy.

Regarding the Trinity, we as Christians often really fall down in trying to explain It. We use a lot of analogies that always break down, and most often fall into modalism, which is un-good. In describing the Trinity, what do you think about linking the perfection of God into the description? I've heard it said that perfection is indivisible. God's nature is perfect. God, Jesus and Holy Spirit share the same perfect nature. Therefore, it is indivisible. Before you think I'm going all Unitarian, as I'm not...or at least I don't think I am, the perfect nature CAN be expressed differently.

As I was out riding my bike today, I thought about a perfect gem - imagine such a thing exists. A perfect gemstone is perfect whether it is mounted in a setting, displayed in a glass case or protected in a vault. Each of these is a different expression, of sorts, of the same perfect gem. What if we were to suggest God's perfect nature was expressed in three different ways - The Father, The Parakletos - Jesus, The Other Parakletos - Holy Spirit. God's nature is not defined by location or what physically houses It. But, the roles of the Three are different. They are separate expressions of the same perfect nature. This is how I imagine the Triune nature of God.

Muslims and Jews claim we are polytheists. But, I think this is a lack of understanding God's attributes and what perfection means (it's indivisible).

What do you think?

Thanks for any discussion-
Dave

I agree that your description sounds like modalism.

If asked about the Trinity I offer this very ancient diagram, but I don't attempt to explain it any further; some things are best left as mysteries.

trinity1.jpg
 
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daveleau

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Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. My understanding of Modalism is that God switches from one to the other. The analogy with the perfect jewel is not intended to relate the Trinity, but to discuss perfection's unchanging nature. During the Incarnation, God did not shift His mode of being into that of a human. Instead, the Three eternally manifest themselves in different ways, in different, complementary roles. As for attributes, thank you for highlighting an imprecision in my writing. Perfection should not be described as an attribute of God. Perfection is how God exhibits His attributes. Perfection is the characteristic of His attributes instead of an attribute in itself.

Ignore the analogy and tell me your thoughts on this part -
God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit have perfect natures, meaning their natures are identical. This is Platonic or Aristotelian, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I think the idea that there is no variation in a perfect divine nature makes sense. Thus, God's nature ties Jesus, God and Holy Spirit together as one Being. At the same time, They manifest Themselves differently with different roles. The different roles is the easy part to understand. The tougher part, the part we ignore, is the indivisibility of persistent perfection. God's perfect attributes and perfect nature cannot change. This is where I think we fall down in describing the Trinity to others. We forget the indivisibility of perfection and simply discuss the perfection of each Member. This makes others think we're polytheists because the idea of perfection's indivisibility is not understood.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dave
 
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Wordkeeper

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Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. My understanding of Modalism is that God switches from one to the other. The analogy with the perfect jewel is not intended to relate the Trinity, but to discuss perfection's unchanging nature. During the Incarnation, God did not shift His mode of being into that of a human. Instead, the Three eternally manifest themselves in different ways, in different, complementary roles. As for attributes, thank you for highlighting an imprecision in my writing. Perfection should not be described as an attribute of God. Perfection is how God exhibits His attributes. Perfection is the characteristic of His attributes instead of an attribute in itself.

Ignore the analogy and tell me your thoughts on this part -
God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit have perfect natures, meaning their natures are identical. This is Platonic or Aristotelian, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I think the idea that there is no variation in a perfect divine nature makes sense. Thus, God's nature ties Jesus, God and Holy Spirit together as one Being. At the same time, They manifest Themselves differently with different roles. The different roles is the easy part to understand. The tougher part, the part we ignore, is the indivisibility of persistent perfection. God's perfect attributes and perfect nature cannot change. This is where I think we fall down in describing the Trinity to others. We forget the indivisibility of perfection and simply discuss the perfection of each Member. This makes others think we're polytheists because the idea of perfection's indivisibility is not understood.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dave


Some people use the analogy of water, in its three states, gaseous, liquid and solid.

Steam=h2o

Water=h2o

Ice=h2o

But the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Son...

Quote
Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which to place the person of Jesus.

N.T. Wright observes in Who Was Jesus? [48-9] that Jewish monotheism "was never, in the Jewish literature of the crucial period, an analysis of the inner being of God, a kind of numerical statement about, so to speak, what God was like on the inside." Rather, it was "always a polemical statement directed outwards against the pagan nations." Rabbis of Jesus' time had no difficulty in personifying separate aspects of God's personality i.e., His Wisdom, His Law (Torah), His Presence (Shekinah) and His Word (Memra). This division had the philosophical purpose of "get(ting) around the problem of how to speak appropriately of the one true God who is both beyond the created world and active within it."

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php
 
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daveleau

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Thanks, how about the idea I posted above? I'm not asking for a defenses of Trinitarianism, but whether the specific defense I posted above makes sense. Does the idea of wrapping in the philosophical concept of perfection's indivisibility help explain the Triune Godhead?
 
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Catherineanne

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Thanks, how about the idea I posted above? I'm not asking for a defenses of Trinitarianism, but whether the specific defense I posted above makes sense. Does the idea of wrapping in the philosophical concept of perfection's indivisibility help explain the Triune Godhead?

Not really. There is a distinct person who is Christ, another who is the Father, and another who is the Spirit. These are three persons in one God, not just three facets of one person.

God is about relationship; each person of the Godhead constantly pours out himself into the others, in perfect love. This is not a narcissistic outpouring, but one of relationship. And the same love is poured out into creation. That love may be indivisible, but perfection is not.
 
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Received

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I don't know if this is modalism or not, but the only practical understanding of the trinity I've been able to ascertain is the idea that the father is the speaker, the son (Logos) is the spoken Word, and the spirit is the energy of this communication. Augustine characterized the holy spirit as the "kiss" between father and son. I don't see the trinity as three floating, distinct entities who have their own personalities, because personality is too, well, personal -- which is why Hans Kung at least slightly gets away from the problem of anthropomorphizing God by calling him "transpersonal".

What does the Word do? Like all other words, a word unlocks an action, and the task of the Word (Christ in incorporeal form) is to uphold the very being of things (Colossians 1:17), which includes our very selves, which Kierkegaard basis his entire philosophy on. Without the spirit there would be no energy by which the word acts, and the intended word of the father wouldn't come to pass. Therefore, where the father is there also is the son via the holy spirit.
 
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daveleau

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Yes, Muslims and Jews often do claim we are polytheistic. (Note, I am not speaking of ethnic Jews with whom you may or may not identify, because I said "Muslims and Jews" which pairs religions not "Arabs and Jews" which pairs ethnicity.)

Any theologians trained in philosophy around? I'd really like a hand with the OP. Thanks!
 
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toLiJC

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Hi everybody!

It's been a while, but I'm glad to see that while the forums' look has been updated, it appears the same layout and rules are in place.

I have a question about something I've been thinking of, and want to run it by someone who is steeped in philosophy.

Regarding the Trinity, we as Christians often really fall down in trying to explain It. We use a lot of analogies that always break down, and most often fall into modalism, which is un-good. In describing the Trinity, what do you think about linking the perfection of God into the description? I've heard it said that perfection is indivisible. God's nature is perfect. God, Jesus and Holy Spirit share the same perfect nature. Therefore, it is indivisible. Before you think I'm going all Unitarian, as I'm not...or at least I don't think I am, the perfect nature CAN be expressed differently.

As I was out riding my bike today, I thought about a perfect gem - imagine such a thing exists. A perfect gemstone is perfect whether it is mounted in a setting, displayed in a glass case or protected in a vault. Each of these is a different expression, of sorts, of the same perfect gem. What if we were to suggest God's perfect nature was expressed in three different ways - The Father, The Parakletos - Jesus, The Other Parakletos - Holy Spirit. God's nature is not defined by location or what physically houses It. But, the roles of the Three are different. They are separate expressions of the same perfect nature. This is how I imagine the Triune nature of God.

Muslims and Jews claim we are polytheists. But, I think this is a lack of understanding God's attributes and what perfection means (it's indivisible).

What do you think?

Thanks for any discussion-
Dave

God the Father is physically located high in the "heaven", at the same time He is kind of remotely omnipresent in the form of Holy Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit is His remote administration in the world, actually the Holy Spirit is the hands of God that He stretches out (in order) to work/operate (with them) in the world - from this perspective He is not (even) remote but very close, the Holy Spirit can manifest through many Holy Angels and Saints of God simultaneously; Jesus Christ is the Son of God Who was sent to the world in order to save it, He is described in the Scripture as being led by the Holy Spirit, He is also described as the Lord Himself that is the only fully authoritative intercessor for humans before God, and the second in the heavenly hierarchy after God the Father, which makes Him higher than any Angel, He says the Holy Spirit will take of His Own before giving to humans (John 16:14-15), He is also described as the secondary creator (Genesis 1:26, Hebrews 1:8-10), therefore He says He was born before the birth of Abraham (John 8:58) and even at the beginning of the eternity (John 17:5, John 17:24); God the Father is described as the invisible God that none of the (be)souled beings created by Him ever saw, as it was mentioned above, He is physically located high in the "heaven" and therefore can't come physically into this world, because He has to stay physically there, on the top of the divine organization i.e. the "throne" of the system Administrator of life; i also think that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, i.e. i don't think any of these three was ever, is or will one day be in a disagreement/disharmony/discord with any other of them - they are one whole divinity, but the important difference is in the Holy organization of God as a whole in regard to who, what, when, where, how, and why in the course of time...

Blessings
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. My understanding of Modalism is that God switches from one to the other.

Arguably the best way to understand the ancient heresy of Modalism is that it said, in effect, that God was a single actor who wore three different faces or masks, like an an actor in a Greek play putting on different masks to take on different roles for the audience.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1213

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What do you think?

I think important thing would be to remember also these:

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak

not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. …

John 14:10-14

But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ

Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:11

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore

said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he

spoke of the temple of his body.

John 2:19-21

Jesus is the temple of God. God dwells in Jesus as He dwells also in the disciples of Jesus. I think Bible should be understood with those scriptures also.
 
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daveleau

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Thanks, guys. Good descriptions of modalism and the traditional view of the Trinity, which I hold to, but that is often unsatisfying to many religious Jews and Mudlims. Does anyone have anything to say about my initial question? That question is in regard specifically to God's perfection being a means of conveying answers to those who call us polytheists???

We have to be able to convey the Truth in different ways like Paul did in Acts. My OP is an attempt to do this but I am running something new by you to get thoughts on it. I am not posting here to get the normal answers. Giving the old normal answers to new questions is why we are losing our youths. We've abdicated the intellectual field to the opponents. Let us think about God's truth in new ways to convey the old Truth in new ways to new questions to win new Christians to Christ. Read JP Moreland's Love Your God w All Your Mind for more.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Read JP Moreland's Love Your God w All Your Mind for more.
This is the basis ?

He's not apparently even a Christian himself. (from the content of his own sites)

He based a lot on this: (from one of his own 'teachings' online)
"
Learning how to see the world and how to think
worldviewishly is very important."
and
other things even worse, that ought not to even be discussed amongst brethren (it is not fit for conversation by believers in and followers of JESUS).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Before I looked up his site:
All of these have opposition to SCRIPTURE.
Just like his sites do.
Thank you , though, because it saved a lot of time by seeing his sites.
No need to get into these.

That question is in regard specifically to God's perfection being a means of conveying answers to those who call us polytheists???

Giving the old normal answers to new questions is why we are losing our youths.

We've abdicated the intellectual field to the opponents.

Let us think about God's truth in new ways to convey the old Truth in new ways to new questions to win new Christians to Christ.

Read JP Moreland's Love Your God w All Your Mind for more.
 
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Cis.jd

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My explanation/example of it is... US.

You yourself are trinity, you are comprised of Body, Soul, and Spirit. If you have an outer body experience and you (as spirit) see your flesh on the ground, they are still both you. If your soul (the one that enables your morality, your identity, and gives meaning to your emotions) gets separated from your body and spirit, which one is you?

Since we were made "in his likeness", then as to the Father, Son, and Spirit are the 3 essences that equal the one being of God; then the body, spirit, soul make 1 person.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Thanks, guys. Good descriptions of modalism and the traditional view of the Trinity, which I hold to, but that is often unsatisfying to many religious Jews and Mudlims. Does anyone have anything to say about my initial question? That question is in regard specifically to God's perfection being a means of conveying answers to those who call us polytheists???

We have to be able to convey the Truth in different ways like Paul did in Acts. My OP is an attempt to do this but I am running something new by you to get thoughts on it. I am not posting here to get the normal answers. Giving the old normal answers to new questions is why we are losing our youths. We've abdicated the intellectual field to the opponents. Let us think about God's truth in new ways to convey the old Truth in new ways to new questions to win new Christians to Christ. Read JP Moreland's Love Your God w All Your Mind for more.

Defending the faith against philosophers with a compelling description of the Trinity is probably a non starter, seeing philosophers agree only to provable views.

Kierkegaard based his theories on the fact that the proven, objective views were all nihilistic. The only option was to choose a subjective alternative view based on morality.
 
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daveleau

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Ok, this statement seems to be the basis of your argument, but who says? Where does this come from, and what is the basis of this idea?
TD:)
TD -
Thank you for responding to my actual question. :clap:

You're asking a similar question to what I am wondering. I've listened to a host of lectures on philosophy, philosophy of religion (both secular and Christian, but predominately Christian) and apologetics which is where I've heard the concept mentioned several times without reference to the source. I firmly believe all truth is God's truth. The Heavens declare the glory of God (Rom 1 and Psa 19). So, while this idea does not come from Scripture, I see no contradiction in Scripture and it makes sense. But, I would like to run it by other Christians who like to think deeply about God.

Secondly, is this, the baseline philosophy of perfection and what it means for God, what we lack an understanding in, explaining why our descriptions/defenses of the Trinity only satiate those who already believe?

Thanks!
Dave
 
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