Tithes .. the systems way to wrangle money out of your pocket by emotional manipulations

Tull · Oct 13, 2016

Your money is the only aspect of your existence that people will be consistently interested in throughout your life,how much you have,how much of it they can get and what you are doing with it.

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

Jim Langston said:
I have thought on this well. There was the man who asked Jesus how to get eternal life and Jesus replied you know the commandments and listed the ones dealing with loving your neighbor when pressed. The man replied that he followed them from his youth. There are three accounts of this and they differ in their wording, it seems the man asked what do I lack and Jesus replied if you would be perfect sell all that you have and give to the poor and you'll have riches in heaven. The man went away mumbling because he had many riches.

I do not think tithing is required for salvation, especially in light of Jesus saying you know the commandments and tithing isn't part of them. In another account Jesus agreed that loving God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and loving your neighbor as yourself would also works, although we know if you do that you have no choice but to follow the commandments because lying to your neighbor is not loving them.

Tithing and giving to the poor goes beyond meer salvation. Although works are not required to be saved, tithing, giving to the poor and going to church are works, we are blessed if we do them, especially giving to the poor. As Jesus said, then we'll have riches in heaven.

Under our new covenant works are not a part of our salvation, not sinning is a part. Works, however, is what the christian life should all be about. All of us should strive to be perfect not only for the greater rewards but to be better people.

If you would be perfect sell all that you have and give it to the poor. Okay, you won't be perfect, what percentage of perfect will you settle for? Job, much beloved by God, gave 10% to church and gave 10% to the poor three out of four years. He was close to 20% perfect by these standards and God loved him very much. That's not the only reason God loved him, but it helped. God blessed Job with riches, he was the richest man in the East. God blessed Job because Job had a willing heart.

How much do you love God? How much do you love your neighbors? Even though we are not required to give anything to be saved I feel 10% is the minimum anyone should feel comfortable giving.

I dont disagree with giving any amount.but people only even "think"of 10% because nan imposes it with teaching the law of the tithe .so the teaching gives an illysion..do this much and youll be ok. But as jesus said..if you would be perfect..,basicly ,go all out dont hold any part of your life back..crucify it for Jesus .so we might consider..teaching the law of the tithe .in fact, encouragous people to maintain an imperfect state.
Interesting huh.

Excuse terrible typos.on tiny ph screen at present.

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

pdudgeon said:
it's in the NT.

no, it' not a Sunday club but there are far too many people who treat the church just like a club. that's why you can't tell their churches from the women's club or their lodges.
it's God's house and it should remain God's house, and we should treat it as such.
It's a priviledge and an honor to go into the presence of God. we are enjoined to do so on a regular basis, and not to skip out to go socializing or to a ball game instead.
Worship and teaching come first and foremost as they should.
We gather together as a church and in the church to support one another and also to learn as well.
those are the two arms of the cross; one reaches up to God in heaven a He reaches down to us, while the other arms reach out to men in fellowship and mutual support.
and that is the function of the church.

I'm sure that you've heard the story about what happened to the coal that was separated out from the burning fire?
Left to itself, it's glowing ember grew dimmer and dimmer. the light flickered and then went out. no more glowing ember.
but put it back in the fire and it will catch again and glow just as it did before.

that is the difference between a Christian who goes it alone and a Christian who has the support of his church.

see paragraph #1 above.

as for the its my money crowd -i dealt with that in the OP ..our life belongs to god we are purchased at great price "EVERYTHING we have is already Gods and all he has is already ours in Christ Jesus .

not quite.
what you've forgotton is that when you give something to someone you do NOT retain ownership of it.
good example:
the bags of groceries that you carry out of the grocery store---are they your groceries or do they still belong to the store?
the clothes you are wearing--are they your clothes or do they belong to the clothing store?

in your example above if everything we have from God belongs to God, then either:
1. it's ours on loan
2. we stole it
3. He never intended to give it to us, and still retains complete control.

so which is it?[/QUOTE]
Both. For we are to be wed to him.

We are made co hiers with Christ.alk he inherited we inherited.
All we have is Gods..alk hd has is ours.tge two become one ..the bride and the lamb.

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

pdudgeon said:
most likely the only ones to get a 'pass' in the 'no works' department would be those who die after having been converted, and thus have no opportunity/ability to do any works.
even the thief on the cross had the time to testify to the other thief before he died, and he took advantage of the opportunity to do so.

I agree..but its deeper than that.
God ha prepared works for us to do... so if we wont go and do them we are liviing in disobedient rebellion and shall not enter.there is no "well done goid and faithfull servant" for those who refused to get done what God told them to do.

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
The point was to agree with you and tell Alithis the point was irrelevant to our original subject of terminology.

And the point is..in no way was he imposing monetary tithe or establishing it as doctrine just because he mentioned the word.So it remains .in the new testement,under the new covenant you cannog find the tithe taught.established imposed or ever asked for.
So why is it today?
Because man built himself a shrine ,generated an ongoing debt ,found he could also profit from it and so began to teach a falshood for money.
And please dont anyone ever tell me any building made by men is the house of God.a cocept that utterly opposes the scriptures.

Kenny'sID · Oct 13, 2016

Jim Langston said:
If you feel like disagreeing with me that is your perogative but *you* are the one that pointed to my post and said it didn't matter.

Not sure what that is but if there was some misunderstanding that lead you to believe I feel any differently about things than I just said, it was just that...a misunderstanding.

As far as disagreeing...I quoited scripture to back what I claimed, so aside from saying the Sabbath *is* one of the a commandments you say we are to follow, I've no reason to add anything or argue it..

Not one jot or tittle from the law.

Kenny'sID · Oct 13, 2016

Alithis said:
And the point is..in no way was he imposing monetary tithe or establishing it as doctrine just because he mentioned the word.So it remains

You mean because he mentioned a word that means tithe, he didn't mean tithe?

Aside from what sounds a bit silly when you look at it that way, all you are doing is saying it isn't so, because you say it isn't so...nothing there to backup that is not what he meant.

Either way, I don't necessarily disagree...still trying to figure it out but just saying I'm wrong and leaving it at that would never fly for you if things were reversed, so it's not really helping here....

RDKirk · Oct 13, 2016

All of this nattering about tithing would be relevant if the New Testament did not actually contain explicit instructions about how finances in the Body of Christ were to be handled.

Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. -- Acts 4:32-37

For if the eagerness is there, it is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have. It is not that there may be relief for others and hardship for you, but it is a question of equality. At the present time your surplus is available for their need, so their abundance may also become available for our need, so there may be equality. As it has been written:

The person who gathered much
did not have too much,
and the person who gathered little
did not have too little. -- 2 Corinthians 8:12-20

Paul here makes the only reference in the New Testament to the Old Testament in explicit instruction for distribution of resources in the Body of Christ. He references Exodus 16:18, the story of the manna in the wilderness. The point to that story was that God instructed each person to get exactly an equal amount of manna per day. Some collected much, some collected little, but when they measured the total out equally to each person--one omer per day--a specific measure given by God--there was always just enough...nobody had more than an omer, nobody had less.

This is no "type," this is no extrapolation, this is explicit, specific instruction on how to give.

The real problem is that nobody wants to follow instructions, especially nobody in America.

If a pastor preached what the New Testament really instructs, Americans would be leaping over pews to get out the door. Heck, the FBI would investigate and probably launch an attack on that church.

Tull · Oct 13, 2016

Are you doing it ?

RDKirk · Oct 13, 2016

Tull said:
Are you doing it ?

A little. I'm doubling the annual budget of a church in India, in addition to giving in my own church.

However, if you understood the principle, you would realize it's not a question you can ask an individual. It must be asked of at least a congregation--it takes a congregation to realize "It is not that there may be relief for others and hardship for you, but it is a question of equality. At the present time your surplus is available for their need, so their abundance may also become available for our need, so there may be equality."

I have seen such congregations...just not in America.

Kenny'sID · Oct 13, 2016

RDKirk said:
All of this nattering about tithing would be relevant if the New Testament did not actually contain explicit instructions about how finances in the Body of Christ were to be handled.

Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. -- Acts 4:32-37

For if the eagerness is there, it is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have. It is not that there may be relief for others and hardship for you, but it is a question of equality. At the present time your surplus is available for their need, so their abundance may also become available for our need, so there may be equality. As it has been written:

The person who gathered much
did not have too much,
and the person who gathered little
did not have too little. -- 2 Corinthians 8:12-20

Paul here makes the only reference in the New Testament to the Old Testament in explicit instruction for distribution of resources in the Body of Christ. He references Exodus 16:18, the story of the manna in the wilderness. The point to that story was that God instructed each person to get exactly an equal amount of manna per day. Some collected much, some collected little, but when they measured the total out equally to each person--one omer per day--a specific measure given by God--there was always just enough...nobody had more than an omer, nobody had less.

This is no "type," this is no extrapolation, this is explicit, specific instruction on how to give.

The real problem is that nobody wants to follow instructions, especially nobody in America.

If a pastor preached what the New Testament really instructs, Americans would be leaping over pews to get out the door. Heck, the FBI would investigate and probably launch an attack on that church.

In a perfect world.

What about those who don't attend a church, and can you recommend a church that does this? What if one cannot find a church that does this, even if they could attend and even if you could recommend a church?

You speak as though it is so simple and if we don't do what may be the impossible, we don't want to follow instructions. Not realistic. I feel I do follow instructions, and give to those in need it as I can, as do others.

And that's not to say all that doesn't sound good or is not even what should be done, but there is no command to do some of that stuff. There is rewards I'm sure. And if one wants to be perfect, they can sell it all, and spread the money around to those in need, at least that is what Christ said, but again, no command.

Remember, Christ made it clear to the rich man, you can get to heaven by doing one thing, then you can take if further and be perfect.

Kenny'sID · Oct 13, 2016

RDKirk said:
A little. I'm doubling the annual budget of a church in India, in addition to giving in my own church.

Great start, and even by itself, that means a lot. Probably a lot more than many do, but then again, if we compare our actions to the many, we will likely fall short every time.

RDKirk · Oct 13, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
In a perfect world.

What about those who don't attend a church, and can you recommend a church that does this? What if one cannot find a church that does this, even if they could attend and even if you could recommend a church?

You speak as though it is so simple and if we don't do what may be the impossible, we don't want to follow instructions. Not realistic. I feel I do follow instructions, and give to those in need it as I can, as do others.

And that's not to say all that doesn't sound good or is not even what should be done, but there is no command to do some of that stuff. There is rewards I'm sure. And if one wants to be perfect, they can sell it all, and spread the money around to those in need, at least that is what Christ said, but again, no command.

Remember, Christ made it clear to the rich man, you can get to heaven by doing one thing, then you can take if further and be perfect.

I have seen such congregations...just not in America.

Soyeong · Oct 13, 2016

Alithis said:
now lets make one thing clear
give -give and give as you feel to in your heart moved by a need seen, a compassion felt ,the speaking of the holy Spirit to your heart .. give and give and don't stop giving as you are able . we are not our own we are purchased with great price we belong to god, everything we have is his and everything he has -is ours in Christ .

but the law of tithe ..is just that .law under a covenant we are not under .

what few realize is that under the new testament .. not one place do we see the "law of the tithe " mentioned ,taught ,imposed .. except for ... oh wait , nope, still NO WHERE .

so why is it taught? and why is it imposed? and where it is not imposed why is it strongly emotionally suggested ?
for one reason - man made need to fund man made programs that further increase costs further fueling the need to promote this "law" and impose it on people.
we know the church is not a building ,we know the temple is not a building we know we are the living temple ..so why do we insist on ignoring the living temple and building ourselves -at HUGE cost $$-,shrines of worship .the lord JESUS never told us to do it . so who did .. is there another lord at work? -not in my life .

free yourselves from this false hood .. instead of tithing . start praying lord what would you like me to give where do YOU desire me to give it ,to whom ..
stop pouring it into some man made mortgage payment -let the building of brick and concrete and glass fall and the living temple of God rise to the work of the Gospel . .

Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), so we do not need the NT to record every individual law that Jesus followed in order to know that we should be following it. God's law is his revealed standard for righteous living as citizens of His Kingdom, the tithe is revealed way to act in line with His righteousness, and we are instructed to practice or train in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). While there are no Levites without an inheritance for us to support, we can still follow the principles of the tithe by supporting those who devote their time to ministry and helping the poor. If you benefit from having a functioning place of meeting, then it is appropriate to help cover the costs.

Kenny'sID · Oct 13, 2016

RDKirk said:
I have seen such congregations...just not in America.

I have little doubt.

Not always, but these days with some Churches, we can sell all and give it, but when your needs need to be met one might find no one at home.

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

Soyeong said:
Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), so we do not need the NT to record every individual law that Jesus followed in order to know that we should be following it. God's law is his revealed standard for righteous living as citizens of His Kingdom, the tithe is revealed way to act in line with His righteousness, and we are instructed to practice or train in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). While there are no Levites without an inheritance for us to support, we can still follow the principles of the tithe by supporting those who devote their time to ministry and helping the poor. If you benefit from having a functioning place of meeting, then it is appropriate to help cover the costs.

not under that covenant sorry . start a new thread

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
You mean because he mentioned a word that means tithe, he didn't mean tithe?

Aside from what sounds a bit silly when you look at it that way, all you are doing is saying it isn't so, because you say it isn't so...nothing there to backup that is not what he meant.

Either way, I don't necessarily disagree...still trying to figure it out but just saying I'm wrong and leaving it at that would never fly for you if things were reversed, so it's not really helping here....

umm no i clearly mean just because he used the word tithe .. does not mean he was instigating it as a rule under the new covenant .. which of course he wasn't .
that is one of the largest of the contradictions in the western establishments . at the start of a service they will tell you your not under the law ..
then , after 3 fast songs 3 slow songs ,and your emotions are softened ,they will insinuate and imposition of the law upon you using Malachi.. which is written to the people it is clearly addressed to . Not those under the new covenant.

Kenny'sID · Oct 13, 2016

Alithis said:
umm no i clearly mean just because he used the word tithe .. does not mean he was instigating it as a rule under the new covenant .. which of course he wasn't .

I knew what you meant, I was only making a point.

Alithis · Oct 13, 2016

RDKirk said:
All of this nattering about tithing would be relevant if the New Testament did not actually contain explicit instructions about how finances in the Body of Christ were to be handled.

Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. -- Acts 4:32-37

For if the eagerness is there, it is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have. It is not that there may be relief for others and hardship for you, but it is a question of equality. At the present time your surplus is available for their need, so their abundance may also become available for our need, so there may be equality. As it has been written:

The person who gathered much
did not have too much,
and the person who gathered little
did not have too little. -- 2 Corinthians 8:12-20

Paul here makes the only reference in the New Testament to the Old Testament in explicit instruction for distribution of resources in the Body of Christ. He references Exodus 16:18, the story of the manna in the wilderness. The point to that story was that God instructed each person to get exactly an equal amount of manna per day. Some collected much, some collected little, but when they measured the total out equally to each person--one omer per day--a specific measure given by God--there was always just enough...nobody had more than an omer, nobody had less.

This is no "type," this is no extrapolation, this is explicit, specific instruction on how to give.

The real problem is that nobody wants to follow instructions, especially nobody in America.

If a pastor preached what the New Testament really instructs, Americans would be leaping over pews to get out the door. Heck, the FBI would investigate and probably launch an attack on that church.

well yeah lol. -though the account in acts is not instructional , but it displays how , ..when the love of god is "shed abroad in our hearts ", it is supposed to look .
and it doesn't look ANYTHING like that .
not when its all sucked up into the banks by mortgage interest to pay for a man mad shrine god never tells us to build .

i could soapbox on haha but i agree with what your pointing out here and how your using Scripture from across the scope to do it .

Soyeong · Oct 13, 2016

Alithis said:
not under that covenant sorry . start a new thread

I agree that we aren't under that covenant, but we are still under the same God and we are still to follow Christ's example.

Tithes .. the systems way to wrangle money out of your pocket by emotional manipulations

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