Does Paul quote scripture out of context?

doubtingmerle · Oct 13, 2016

In another thread the question came up as to whether Paul quotes the OT honestly. I think he does not. Almost every time he quotes the Old Testament, if you look at the actual verses in context, you will find they are not saying what Paul claims they are saying. For instances, look at Romans 3:10-19:

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands, no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Rom 3:10-19)

Paul is here quoting a number of verses as though they apply to everybody. But the verses he quotes in the Old Testament do not say that.

The first 3 verses are a loose paraphrase of Psalms 14:1-3. Psalms 14 in context is not saying that all are bad. Rather, it is saying that there are bad people that say no to Elohim (God), and there are righteous people who follow God. It is contrasting two groups of people. It is not saying all are bad.

The next verse appears to be from Jeremiah 5:16 which condemns a nation that is attacking the Jews, and says their quiver is an open grave. Paul changes "quiver" to "throat" and uses it to mean all men. Clearly Jeremiah was not saying that everyone was part of that invading army.

The verse about poison of snakes comes from Psalms 140:3, where the psalmist complains about some evil men coming after him. The psalmist is not saying everybody is an evil man coming at him, only some.

Next we read about a mouth full of cursing and bitterness, quoting Psalms 10:7, but again, this verse is talking about particular evil men attacking the psalmist, not that all are evil.

So I see here a collection of verses in the Old Testament about particular people doing bad things. One could also find a collection of verses about particular people doing good things. But Paul chooses the verses that speak of bad people doing bad things, strings them together, and uses them to prove a point. But Paul's point is not the point the original OT writers were making.

It is hard to find the doctrine in the Old Testament that all are evil. Rather we find that some are evil and some are good. And the emphasis there is always to be good, because God rewards you on earth if you are good.

Winken · Oct 13, 2016

Paul's quotes refer to Jewish folk who reject the Grace found in the Abrahamic Covenant, and then reject Jesus Himself. Context is the key.

doubtingmerle · Oct 13, 2016

Winken said:
Paul's quotes refer to Jewish folk who reject the Grace found in the Abrahamic Covenant, and then reject Jesus Himself. Context is the key.

So when Paul says none is righteous and all have sinned, he is referring to Jewish folks, not everybody? I don't think so. It looks like Paul is say, "All have sinned", not "All Jews have sinned".

But again, look at the verses Paul is quoting. He is referring to invading armies and those who deny God, and says they are bad. How can Paul use a verse about a bad army attacking good Jews to prove Jews a bad?

Winken · Oct 13, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
So when Paul says none is righteous and all have sinned, he is referring to Jewish folks, not everybody? I don't think so. It looks like Paul is say, "All have sinned", not "All Jews have sinned".

But again, look at the verses Paul is quoting. He is referring to invading armies and those who deny God, and says they are bad. How can Paul use a verse about a bad army attacking good Jews to prove Jews a bad?

Again, Paul points out the straying of the Jews, and then their rejection of their Messiah. None is Righteous, according to Grace. He isn't talking non-Jews prior to the Cross. There is the concept of the depravity of the entire world being involved, from start to finish, but that is not what Paul is addressing. With regard to war, he is talking about National Israel, not the United Nations. What he wrote, contextually, refers to the existence of the Hebrew folk from the Abrahamic Covenant until Acts 9. Paul makes that clear later in Acts when he says that he will drop the Jews from his ministry and head out to the Gentiles.

doubtingmerle · Oct 13, 2016

Winken said:
Again, Paul points out the straying of the Jews, and then their rejection of their Messiah.

Again, that is exactly what I said you said, that Paul is pointing out straying of the Jews. Why repeat yourself, when I echo back that you are saying what you just repeated?

And again, the part you ignored, that Paul is quoting the Old Testament as his source and the Old Testament passages he is quoting do not say what Paul claims they say. Those verses in the OT do not say what most people think Paul is saying ("All have sinned") or even what you think Paul is saying ("All Jews have strayed").

RDKirk · Oct 13, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
It is hard to find the doctrine in the Old Testament that all are evil. Rather we find that some are evil and some are good. And the emphasis there is always to be good, because God rewards you on earth if you are good.

So has that caused you to become a God-fearer like the 1st century gentiles who believed in the God of Abraham but did not actually become a Jew?

If not, what is your point?

Winken · Oct 13, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
Again, that is exactly what I said you said, that Paul is pointing out straying of the Jews. Why repeat yourself, when I echo back that you are saying what you just repeated?

And again, the part you ignored, that Paul is quoting the Old Testament as his source and the Old Testament passages he is quoting do not say what Paul claims they say. Those verses in the OT do not say what most people think Paul is saying ("All have sinned") or even what you think Paul is saying ("All Jews have strayed").

Paul's quoting of the OT, the Hebrew Bible, underlines the context of his writings. Read Romans 10, Chapters 9 thru 11, Paul's lament for his countrymen, the Jews.

doubtingmerle · Oct 13, 2016

RDKirk said:
If not, what is your point?

My point is that Paul is quote mining, that he is finding verses in the Old Testament to make it look like they support his views when they do not.

danny ski · Oct 13, 2016

I've read Paul's letters and they're certainly interesting. But, and maybe it's the later translation or interpretations, the misquotes really prevent me from taking his writings seriously.

RDKirk · Oct 13, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
My point is that Paul is quote mining, that he is finding verses in the Old Testament to make it look like they support his views when they do not.

You're not a Christian, so what is the actual reason you're caring about it? What's your actual goal?

Greg J. · Oct 13, 2016

Jesus did the same thing in Luke 4:18-19 when quoting Isaiah 61:1-2. Sometimes the person quoting a passage of Scripture is trying to point out a particular facet of the meaning of the passage (as in Jesus' case). In Paul's case, what he knew he received from God directly (Galatians 1:11-12). He didn't make a mistake, but said what he meant to convey.

doubtingmerle · Oct 14, 2016

RDKirk said:
What's your actual goal?

My goal is to discuss the way Paul quotes the OT with those who are interested in talking about it. What is your goal on this thread?

doubtingmerle · Oct 14, 2016

Greg J. said:
Sometimes the person quoting a passage of Scripture is trying to point out a particular facet of the meaning of the passage (as in Jesus' case).

OK, but can you just make up things that the OT writers were meaning? That is my point. The OT writers did not mean what Paul says they meant.

In Paul's case, what he knew he received from God directly (Galatians 1:11-12). He didn't make a mistake, but said what he meant to convey.

Did he receive from God that the OT writers meant what Paul said they meant? That's odd. Because if this is what the OT writers meant, they had an odd way of expressing themselves.

Greg J. · Oct 14, 2016

If you want to find evidence that God is real and Scripture is inerrant (as original written down), you will find an overwhelming amount. If you want to find a reason to reject that thesis, you will find an overwhelming amount.

doubtingmerle · Oct 14, 2016

Greg J. said:
If you want to find evidence that God is real and Scripture is inerrant (as original written down), you will find an overwhelming amount. If you want to find a reason to reject that thesis, you will find an overwhelming amount.

And if I approach the evidence with an open mind, which will I find? Abundant evidence of error or abundant evidence of inerrancy?

Winken · Oct 14, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
And if I approach the evidence with an open mind, which will I find? Abundant evidence of error or abundant evidence of inerrancy?

Inerrancy. Contrast an "open mind" with Spiritually hearing from God. Read on.

Two related things that the writings of Paul clearly point out are found in their Dynamic Equivalent:

1 Corinthians 2:10-16

Note the small letter "s" in spirit, which is not of God, contrasted with the "S" in Spirit, which is of God.

10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, Amen!, the deep things of God.

11 For who knows the things of a man, save his own wisdom, which is within? Even so the things of God knows no one; only the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world; we have received the Spirit which is from God, that we might know that which is freely given to us by Him.

13 Which things also we share, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual.

14 The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he comprehend them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

15 On the other hand, He that is Spiritual judges all things, yet He Himself is judged by no one.

16 For what man has known the Spirit of the Lord, in order to instruct Him? Know this: We have the Spiritual Insight of Christ.

(In order for anyone to know the Spirit of the Lord, he or she must confess Romans 10:8-13, then read of their assurance in Romans 8:1 and Ephesians 2:8-9).

2 Timothy 2:14-16

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that your hearers strive not about words to no profit, but to their own subverting.

15 Study to show yourself approved before God, a witness that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 Shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase into more ungodliness.

(rightly dividing = carefully, diligently, following the lead of the Holy Spirit, in separating that which is specifically, without question, directed to a Jewish reader in the OT (Hebrew Bible) in that time, not directed toward a Christian reader today.)

Greg J. · Oct 14, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
And if I approach the evidence with an open mind, which will I find? Abundant evidence of error or abundant evidence of inerrancy?

With an open mind, you could find either. With an open heart you would find God.

doubtingmerle · Oct 14, 2016

Winken said:
Inerrancy. Contrast an "open mind" with Spiritually hearing from God. Read on.

Why do you put "open mind" in quotes? Approaching a subject with an open mind is a real things, yes?

I try to approach the subject of inerrancy with an open mind. Do you try to approach it with an open mind?

Do you spiritually hear from God? If so, how do you know that you are hearing from God?

doubtingmerle · Oct 14, 2016

Greg J. said:
With an open mind, you could find either. With an open heart you would find God.

What do you mean when you say to approach the subject of inerrancy with an open heart? How is that different from approaching with an open mind?

And why do you say that with an open minded approach to scripture one would find either? I would think it leads to one conclusion. Do you care to approach the scriptures together with an open mind, to see if it leads us to the same conclusion on the subject of biblical inerrancy?

Winken · Oct 14, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
Why do you put "open mind" in quotes? Approaching a subject with an open mind is a real things, yes?

I try to approach the subject of inerrancy with an open mind. Do you try to approach it with an open mind?

Do you spiritually hear from God? If so, how do you know that you are hearing from God?

You will continue to prefer "mind" over Spiritual insight until you receive Jesus as Savior. I pointed that out in my previous post. The Holy Spirit provides Spiritual interpretation and application of Scripture.

All authentic Christian Believers hear from God. The blessing of that is that He (the Holy Spirit) guides us in all things.

There are those Christians who fade in their Faith toward God. They withdraw into worldly insights, not Spiritual. Until they repent, their hearing will be limited. But God doesn't give up.

Does Paul quote scripture out of context?

I'll think about it.

Heimat

I'll think about it.

Heimat

I'll think about it.

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Heimat

I'll think about it.

Newbie

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Well-Known Member

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

Well-Known Member

I'll think about it.

Heimat

Well-Known Member

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

Heimat

Similar threads