An asocial Christian

Albion said:

Would it be your view that observing the Lord's Supper, administering Baptism, preaching, calling pastors, bishops, and so on, are all just do-it-yourself propositions and whoever is part of the gathering can take turns being in charge of that?

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Jesus is in charge of that through his Holy Spirit. And, frankly, Jesus throughout the Gospel repeatedly said, "whosoever will...".

Albion, the Kingdom of God is the opposite of the world. The world (and Satan) needs a hierarchy because we are finite beings, so organization requires a chain of command. God is infinite and can speak to everyone at once, so he does not need a chain of command. If you are born again with the Holy Spirit in your heart, He will speak directly to you. If you are not born again, then you are not in the kingdom of God. If you are born again, and you ignore the quiet promptings of the Lord, then He will use mature believers to reaffirm what He has already spoken to your heart. These mature believers are what the Bible calls elders or overseers (bishops). However, these mature believers do not have authority over other believers, only the responsibility to reaffirm His word as led by the Spirit.

The Kingdom of God is about personal responsibility. God holds us individually accountable to Him. When we confess our sins in repentance and put our faith in Jesus Christ, we become accountable to God and begin the process of personal responsibility.

I happen to live in Dallas, which prides itself on being the buckle of the Bible Belt. There are Christians everywhere. According to a report I recently heard, Christianity is the biggest religion in the world. There are more Christians today (at least people calling themselves Christians) than there are pagans in the world.

There are no epistles written to individual congregations in the New Testament. They are written to all believers in a city, and the epistles were copied and circulated to believers throughout that city. God does not make the distinction of Anglican or Baptist. He sees the Church of Dallas, or where ever you may live.

The purpose of gathering with believers is not to perform sacraments, which is why each group determines how often they perform those sacraments. Rather, the purpose is to experience God corporately. A large congregation singing songs of worship is only one small corporate experience. God is seen in a greater capacity, in my opinion, when everyone has a chance to share what the Lord has put on their hearts.

But, despite what I am saying, the love of God is for all people, and especially for those in Christ. So, regardless of how you worship the Lord - with a few people in a home or in a traditional organized religious setting - God accepts our hearts intention of worshiping Him.

AlexDTX said:

There are no epistles written to individual congregations in the New Testament.

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Where did you get this idea? Practically all of the NT books were written to individual congregations. There are 7 epistles written to individual congregations in the book of Revelation alone!

AlexDTX said:

Albion, the Kingdom of God is the opposite of the world.

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The world (and Satan) needs a hierarchy because we are finite beings, so organization requires a chain of command.

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That doesn't mean that God doesn't appoint men to accomplish certain tasks. And Christ did appoint evangelists and men ordered by him to baptize other people. He ordered that the Lord's Supper be observed. The very word of God, Holy Scripture, tells us of his church's "hierarchy" of deacons, presbyters, and bishops, what qualifications are necessary, and so on. To talk as though none of this matters or is wrong (!) does not make sense--at least not if we claim the Bible as our guide to such things.

dysert said:

Where did you get this idea? Practically all of the NT books were written to individual congregations. There are 7 epistles written to individual congregations in the book of Revelation alone!

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Let me clarify this further. What I mean by "individual congregations" is what we call the local church today. The epistles, including the seven in Revelations, are written to all believers in the cities they dwelt in. The first century believers did not gather in buildings set apart for their meetings. They met in the homes of various people who had room to house the gatherings. For example in Acts 16:40 it says they met in the house of Lydia who lived in Thyatira. I think it is presumptuous to assume the 1st century church was so small that all the Romans met in one house, or all the Corinthians met in one house. It is more likely they met in various homes. This is why Paul told the Thessalonians to pass his letter onto others (1 Thess. 5:27) in Thessalonica. All the epistles were written for all believers in that city.

Albion said:

That doesn't mean that God doesn't appoint men to accomplish certain tasks. And Christ did appoint evangelists and men ordered by him to baptize other people. He ordered that the Lord's Supper be observed. The very word of God, Holy Scripture, tells us of his church's "hierarchy" of deacons, presbyters, and bishops, what qualifications are necessary, and so on. To talk as though none of this matters or is wrong (!) does not make sense--at least not if we claim the Bible as our guide to such things.

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You are absolutely correct. God does appoint men to tasks. There is no disagreement. However, the Kingdom of God does not work according to the hierarchy of the world. The KG works by example and functions on a temporary basis. Notice that Paul did not establish churches and pastor them for the rest of his life. He did what we are all to do. Equip the saints so they can also equip the saints. The work of the kingdom is seasonal.

I have never met a pastor who held the office of pastor. There are no doubt some, but I think they are few in number. The men in the office are often teachers or administrators. The real men and women that are pastors have been in congregations or in the working world.

Albion, in your last response you edited your comment. I saw your first comment in my email box, to which I did not respond because I wanted to think about it first. Later when I was ready to respond I saw that you had changed what you wrote, so I did not address it. But I think it matters here.

You said, "according to your interpretation". What we read in the Bible is always subject to interpretation. Just because the majority believe one way does not mean it is the correct interpretation. The framework of the world imposes itself upon everything and we naturally assume this applies to the Kingdom of God, too. Yet we are told that the natural mind does not receive the things of the Spirit; we are not to be conformed to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds; to be great in the kingdom we are to be the least; and so on. As I said, there is no need for hierarchy in the KG. But that does not mean we don't have maturity and immaturity. The mature are to be examples and to encourage the immature in the things of God, but we are not to Lord over them in anything.

This, to me, is the purpose of the forum. To help fellow believers in the renewing of their minds. Iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

AlexDTX said:

The single verse in Hebrews 10:25 says not to forsake assembling together. You can meet with other believers in any way you wish. It is common for home bible studies to gather together, or at coffee houses, or outside in parks. The Greek word translated as "assemble" is episunagogue, which can mean to not forsake "hospitality" since it has the prefix "epi". Sunagogue is usually transliterated as "synagogue" which is more accurately translated as "assembly". So we are to be hospitable to people, not to gather.

Nor is there any requirement on the number that gather together. Home group advocates cite the passage where Jesus says that when two or more gather together he is in the midst of them. I don't use that citation as a formula because that is not the Lord's intention. He was speaking of reconciliation and when two or more gather to reconcile, he is in the midst of them. The whole point of Hebrews 10 is that we do not need any one, that is, a priest of any kind, to enter into the throne room of God because Jesus alone is our High Priest who opened the door to the Father for us.

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Thank. You.

I used to attend a home fellowship group associated with a mega-church. The small group was perfect for me; I wasn't comfortable in that huge crowd, among other things.

Well some people pressured me, not understanding why I wasn't attending the main church services in light of Hebrews 10:25. Another man said I was being "disobedient to God" because I was only going to that one fellowship a week. He attended several Bible study groups in addition to the services, and in his mind I was out of line if I did things any differently.

I tried to explain that there's no set minimum on how often you fellowship or where. They just didn't get it. It has to be in an official church building or it doesn't count. You have to fellowship several times a week or it doesn't count.

I'm sorry to say, the aforementioned guy saw fit to reprimand me in front of the group for being such a solitary person. He was determined to shame, to guilt, to bend me into line by whatever means it took. And what he succeeded in doing was turning me off to fellowships altogether.

DJKWord said:

Thank. You.

I used to attend a home fellowship group associated with a mega-church. The small group was perfect for me; I wasn't comfortable in that huge crowd, among other things.

Well some people pressured me, not understanding why I wasn't attending the main church services in light of Hebrews 10:25. Another man said I was being "disobedient to God" because I was only going to that one fellowship a week. He attended several Bible study groups in addition to the services, and in his mind I was out of line if I did things any differently.

I tried to explain that there's no set minimum on how often you fellowship or where. They just didn't get it. It has to be in an official church building or it doesn't count. You have to fellowship several times a week or it doesn't count.

I'm sorry to say, the aforementioned guy saw fit to reprimand me in front of the group for being such a solitary person. He was determined to shame, to guilt, to bend me into line by whatever means it took. And what he succeeded in doing was turning me off to fellowships altogether.

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DJK,
I am so sorry to hear of the guilt and condemnation that you were subjected to. That guy does not live by the grace of God, but by his own works and he is self justified. God does not manipulate us. He gives us freedom and lets his own presence with us be an example of his goodness that leads us to repentance when we need to repent.

It disheartens me when I realize how many people attend organized religion because they think they are being obedient to God. Love is not an act of obedience, obedience is the fruit of love. When Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commandments this is what he meant. Love can not be forced it is always voluntary. How can we love the brethren if we think we have to love the brethren. That is duty, not love. Love is like an oak tree that is extremely slow growing, but when genuine is very strong. This means, in truth, there will only be a few people that you truly love. I do not mean that we can't appreciate and generally love many people. What I mean is the love that you lay down your life for is very few people.

That kind of love comes from God. Let God bring that one or two people in your life and let God nourish and grow that love within you.

BTW, I am speaking to you specifically in this matter. There are millions of people who stay in organized religion and develop genuine love for brethren in their congregations. This love is not because of the organization, but because of the individuals in the congregation.

DJKWord said:

I'm sorry to say, the aforementioned guy saw fit to reprimand me in front of the group for being such a solitary person. He was determined to shame, to guilt, to bend me into line by whatever means it took. And what he succeeded in doing was turning me off to fellowships altogether.

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All that that would prove to me was that this wasn't a good example of a fellowship. Kick the dust of that group off your shoes and find a better one.

I agree largely with Alex DTX's comments in this thread.

In the early days of my embracing Christ's faith and Biblical Teachings I would go to many different Organized Religion type churches. None of them left me with a clear impression that - this is where I should regularly attend. Then it appeared that living in a christian commune would actually be closer to what 'the early church' was like, before 'the falling away' from it's original essence + design.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. <---> Acts 2:44-47

This was a much more extreme venture...when things were going well, it was heavenly, but if / when things went badly...it was very, very bad. So after trying several communes over several years. Having mixed results, I retired from that pursuit for some time now. I suppose if I were to become aware of one that was truly blessed by God, I would seriously consider moving there, ( if they would have me ?).

One of the things that troubles my mind the most about current 'believers', myself also at least somewhat included, is that there appears to be a great dearth of God's miraculous workings. When I began to study Scripture no person was there to 'coach me', and this I regard as a blessing, seeing we (for the most part) appear to live in a Laodicean age / phase (See Revelation 3:14-22).

Some claim miracles were for getting the church started, and now that the church is established, there's no need for them any longer. This comes across to me as an attempt to rationalize our current state of being relatively powerless spiritually, while still claiming to be something significant in God's Kingdom. Quite Laodicean like.

Others wag their tongues, after being coached that - if they can do so, this will be proof that they've been filled with the Holy Ghost. This comes across as being peer-pressured manipulation. And in the overall absence of the many other 'miracles' associated with having God within, does tend to reduce what is being claimed as being 'full of God's Spirit', to a lot of senseless babbling.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. <---> 2nd Timothy 3:5

Truth / Honesty is the most indispensable virtue, for without it, whatever we have / claim is a lie.

And when many gather together and affirm together things which are not true, they strengthen each other's delusions.

Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. <---> 1st Corinthians 11:17

Now I've probably angered some of you by these words. (This is not my motivation), and that comes across as being rather prideful, to have anger as a first response, because someone has a somewhat contrary view of things.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. <---> James 3:17

But for the rest who can relate to these views, it would seem good, if we could agree together, humbly confessing our somewhat sorry spiritual state, and entreat our Heavenly Father that He would raise us up out of this 'believing we're something, when we're nothing' mindset, and instill in us the holy gifts which were instilled in the church in the early days, before the great falling away, so that we may truly (once agian), with great power be witnesses of our Blessed Lord and His resurrection. See Acts 4:33 (Which in this world will likely get us killed...but it's not like we're not going to die anyway. And who better to die for then He Who gave us life, and can raise us from the dead ?!)

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. <---> Acts 20:29-31

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. <---> John 16:2

Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. <---> Proverbs 1:23

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. <---> Acts 2:17-21


And by the way, fellowshipping here at CF can also be a form of assembling together.

Also worth considering -

And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! <---> Numbers 11:23-29

May The Lord Be Magnified !

** Edited for spelling corrections**