Why don't any of the church fathers know that the pope is infallible?

Major1

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The idea of the Pope being infallible is something that sprang up over Twenty Centuries, not from Vatican I
I will admit that the infallible statements of the Popes are few and far between, and I can count them on the fingers of one hand. Gee, five whole reasons to not believe that the Pope can speak with the voice of God out of how many Popes? 266 Popes, and only five infallible statements. Wow, that's something to really start an argument about, isn't it?

ONE would be ONE too many as it would be un-Biblical.

All 266 Popes are just like YOU and ME.......SINNERS.

Mary was just like YOU and ME.................A SINNER.

That is not my opinion but instead the Word of God.

Rom. 3:23.........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".
 
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CrystalDragon

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I want to keep my mouth shut zip zip button my lip, but I will say this; I can't see myself worshipping Mary or praying to anyone but Jesus.


I'm Catholic and we do not worship Mary. We pray to her and the saints for aid and intercession in God's behalf.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Why?

Or, rather, it would be best to show why they are false, if you're going to,
so people learn what is true instead of being confused further ....

but I think it is always best to present their best arguments..
 
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Major1

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I'm Catholic and we do not worship Mary. We pray to her and the saints for aid and intercession in God's behalf.

Would you please post the Scriptures which tell you to pray to Mary or to a saint.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Why?

Or, rather, it would be best to show why they are false, if you're going to,
so people learn what is true instead of being confused further ....


I think it's because Mary took on the task to be the Mother of Jesus, and was seen as being full of grace by the angels, and her agreeing is how Jesus came to Earth in the first place. She's a model toward how we should act when God calls us to act for a good purpose, and the saints were seen as those who lived a godly life. But all of them were human, so they are like mediators between the highest divine power of God and our Earthly realm. They are like role models so we ask them to pray for us.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I see what you say and I believe truly as YHWH has revealed
that it is all in line with man's traditions,
and opposed to Scripture.

That's a choice everyone has to make - to trust men, or GOD.

As for me and my house, we will trust and rely on what we see in GOD'S WORD, simply, and instead of man's traditions when they are opposed to each other....

I think it's because Mary took on the task to be the Mother of Jesus, and was seen as being full of grace by the angels, and her agreeing is how Jesus came to Earth in the first place. She's a model toward how we should act when God calls us to act for a good purpose, and the saints were seen as those who lived a godly life. But all of them were human, so they are like mediators between the highest divine power of God and our Earthly realm. They are like role models so we ask them to pray for us.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Would you please post the Scriptures which tell you to pray to Mary or to a saint.

Well, after looking as far as I can tell there are no Scriptures that ask Christians to pray to Mary or a saint, but Paul did ask for others to pray for him. To quote one website: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

"Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44)."
 
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KawaiiChristianGal

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I'm Catholic and we do not worship Mary. We pray to her and the saints for aid and intercession in God's behalf.

She cannot make intercession for you, only Jesus can. To pray to anyone is considered worshipping though, there is no other way around that.
 
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KawaiiChristianGal

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I think it's because Mary took on the task to be the Mother of Jesus, and was seen as being full of grace by the angels, and her agreeing is how Jesus came to Earth in the first place. She's a model toward how we should act when God calls us to act for a good purpose, and the saints were seen as those who lived a godly life. But all of them were human, so they are like mediators between the highest divine power of God and our Earthly realm. They are like role models so we ask them to pray for us.

There is only one mediator and that's Jesus.
 
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CrystalDragon

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She cannot make intercession for you, only Jesus can. To pray to anyone is considered worshipping though, there is no other way around that.


If the Catholic Church is the church that was instituted by Peter on Jesus's command, shouldn't the doctrines of the Church this be in line with how Peter and Jesus wanted them? And I always thought worship was considered giving reverence to someone you believe has great power and can help you will your prayers, trials, and concerns. It's not believed that Mary or the saints have power to create life and all that.

Also there's the "patron saints" of different things, aren't they thus okay to ask for help if they're the patron saint of that specific thing?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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only Jesus can.
HIS OWN PRAYER, in JOHN 17, is so WONDERFUL and TRUE and ENLIGHTENING.

The disciples did not pray TO each other. They never prayed to mary or any other believer.

They were living IN UNION WITH Y'SHUA, abiding IN HIM, AS HE asked of ABBA YHWH.

[ see "IN UNION" many times in the NEW TESTAMENT - the ecclesia, believers WHO KNEW THEY WERE SAVED, with no doubts or fears or worries ]
THEY KNEW THEY WERE SAVED, in Y'SHUA,
while
they were still alive on earth, in prison even, in chains even,
tortured and persecuted by the religious leaders even.

THEY KNEW POSITIVELY and CERTAINLY they were SAVED ALREADY.

They never even had a thought to pray TO ONE ANOTHER, EVER.
and
why would they? THEY (and we[ecclesia born again TODAY on earth])
have DIRECT ACCESS TO ABBA YHWH ELOHIM [GOD] in Y'SHUA(JESUS).

DIRECT ACCESS. Already. TODAY.

"SEATED IN the heavenly places" and "LIVING AS ONE WITH Y'SHUA and with the FATHER"

(yes - perfectly; intimately; absolutely according to HIS OWN PRAYER in JOHN 17) we[ecclesia] ARE ONE WITH Y'SHUA and our HEAVENLY FATHER, when we live in HIM as HE SAYS.

no.... none of man's treadition even comes close..... but usually directly defies and opposes YHWH'S WORD.

So, read YHWH'S WORD (THE BIBLE), and TRUST HIM.
ASK HIM DIRECTLY.

HE ALREADY sent HIS OWN SON to die, and to be raised again never to die any more. (HE cannot be crucified again, every day, like some religions do and say).

Since GOD gave HIS OWN SON FOR US,
ASK HIM for the TRUTH.

not men.

"Why don't /didn't / the church fathers (so-called) KNOW ? "
Why did they often oppose SCRIPTURE?

It doesn't matter, does it ? (why they often opposed SCRIPTURE)

We [ecclesia] TODAY seek YHWH HIMSELF in line with SCRIPTURE. HIS WORD.
We [ecclesia] TODAY TRUST YHWH and Y'SHUA(JESUS).

YHWH(GOD) and Y'SHUA(JESUS) are FAITHFUL AND TRUE and HONEST.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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There is only one mediator and that's Jesus.

That is correct!

Corrie ten Boom KNEW THIS PERFECTLY when she was ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD.

SHE was SAVED when she was FIVE YEARS OLD, AND KNEW IT ! (all of her life)

Very well known (world wide) people, AND some forum members,
have SAID POSTED/ that they themselves
have NO ASSURANCE OF BEING SAVED AT ALL.

So much so, they(some) DID NOT SEEK SALVATION. So they NEVER had any idea that they could be SAVED on earth, already, TODAY.

They said they were told they could not know. (not by SCRIPTURE, not by YHWH(GOD), not by Y'SHUA(JESUS) ) .

SCRIPTURE, YHWH and Y'SHUA ALL AGREE - a person CAN KNOW TODAY that they are SAVED.

Corrie ten Boom, and a multitude of ecclesia for the last 2000 years plus,
KNEW they were SAVED and BY WHOM(Y'SHUA(JESUS) ),
even if or when they were ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD (then for the rest of their life).

CALL ON Y'SHUA(JESUS) to be SAVED TODAY. Do not wait, anyone.
Y'SHUA SAYS HE never turns anyone away who comes to HIM TODAY.
HIS WORD is PERFECT and CLEAR and TRUE.
TRUST Y'SHUA(JESUS).
 
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Major1

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Corrie ten Boom KNEW THIS PERFECTLY when she was ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD.

SHE was SAVED when she was FIVE YEARS OLD, AND KNEW IT ! (all of her life)

Very well known (world wide) people, AND some forum members,
have SAID POSTED/ that they themselves
have NO ASSURANCE OF BEING SAVED AT ALL.

So much so, they(some) DID NOT SEEK SALVATION. So they NEVER had any idea that they could be SAVED on earth, already, TODAY.

They said they were told they could not know. (not by SCRIPTURE, not by YHWH(GOD), not by Y'SHUA(JESUS) ) .

SCRIPTURE, YHWH and Y'SHUA ALL AGREE - a person CAN KNOW TODAY that they are SAVED.

Corrie ten Boom, and a multitude of ecclesia for the last 2000 years plus,
KNEW they were SAVED and BY WHOM(Y'SHUA(JESUS) ),
even if or when they were ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD (then for the rest of their life).

CALL ON Y'SHUA(JESUS) to be SAVED TODAY. Do not wait, anyone.
Y'SHUA SAYS HE never turns anyone away who comes to HIM TODAY.
HIS WORD is PERFECT and CLEAR and TRUE.
TRUST Y'SHUA(JESUS).

My friend. About 25 years ago I spoke at a funeral for a friend of mine. I used John 3:1-7 which says that we "Must be born again to see the kingdom of God".

A Catholic deacon also spoke and after the service that man said to me......"I have never heard what you said about being born again".

He was about 50 years old. Can you believe such a thing???? I had the opportunity to lead that man to Christ right there at the funeral home and he later joined one of the local protestant churches and served the Lord there until he passed.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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...."I have never heard what you said about being born again".
He was about 50 years old. Can you believe such a thing???? I had the opportunity to lead that man to Christ right there at the funeral home and he later joined one of the local protestant churches and served the Lord there until he passed.
Yes,
I have heard it very frequently,
in person and on this forum, often.

Most people on earth, everywhere(including many, many, different places of worship), are not told the truth,
the simple truth,
as Y'SHUA (JESUS) SAYS: "you must be born again".
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If Catholicism isn't the one true Church, what is and how can we know?
How can a piece of pyrite be proven not to be gold ?
Simple.
Test it.
Since pyrite is not gold, when it is tested, it is proven not gold.
Likewise the rcc is not the true church.
When it is tested(by Scripture ) it is proven not to be the true church.
Simple.

And why would Catholicism be described as the direct Church established by Peter and thus Jesus if that is not the case?
Why?
Since the beginning :
Lies,
Greed,
Deception,
Power,
Lusts of this world,
False teachers,
False prophets,
False disciples,
TEST BY SCRIPTURE to see what is TRUTH.
Simple.
 
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Monk Brendan

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ONE would be ONE too many as it would be un-Biblical.

All 266 Popes are just like YOU and ME.......SINNERS.

Mary was just like YOU and ME.................A SINNER.

That is not my opinion but instead the Word of God.
Rom. 3:23.........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Okay, Major1, have it your own way! The Pope IS a sinner--granted. So are You and I sinners. But for some reason almost all Protestants seem to believe that the Holy Spirit DIED or had a fit or something and stopped talking just after Constantine, and was not regenerated until Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the wall. Is there no room for the Holy Spirit to speak to the leader of the largest Christian Church in the world, just because he is Catholic?

The Holy Spirit spoke to Billy Graham, and Oral Roberts, and so on. How was He able to speak now, but he couldn't speak to anybody from Constantine to Martin Luther? Why, exactly--remembering that He is God, and He can do anything!
 
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Monk Brendan

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She cannot make intercession for you, only Jesus can. To pray to anyone is considered worshipping though, there is no other way around that.

Oh? you never pray for a friend? That worshiping, according to you.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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There is a lot of claims there with no evidence for it.
Remember the HIGH PRIEST , appointed by YHWH'S TORAH, did not only NOT LISTEN to YHWH, but agreed and sought to crucify Y'SHUA MESSIAH ! .....
So likewise religion TODAY is not immune, no matter how large, to the exact same deception.
 
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