If God is all powerful

dfw69 said:

Interesting Jane ..yeah we Christians eat up what's on the plate

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Be like Oliver Twist,
ask for more.

A feast is not a one- course meal.

The ID is described biblically as a being who MUST adhere to his own sense of justice.

fatboys said:

From God

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You mean Jesus?

Trichakra said:

You mean Jesus?

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He might be referring to Jesus. It all depends.

fatboys said:

If God is all powerful why does there have to be an atonement? Why cannot God say to those who sin and repent and change theirs lives to obedience, why did God force us to have a savior. Couldn't God save us with just a word? Is God under a law that he cannot destroy disobedient creations from where they came from? Why is God limited in what he can do?

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We need to look at what God wants when he creates humans, a loving relationship!

Love is a choice, and the Bible says God desires a real love relationship with His creation. Love is not real unless we have the ability to not love. One of God's attributes is omniscience. God knew that in a world with choice, there would be much evil -- to choose not to love is evil by definition. However, there would also be the capacity for real love. Philosopher Alvin Plantinga writes, "An all loving, all powerful, all knowing Being could permit as much evil as He pleased without forfeiting His claim to being all loving, so long as for every evil state of affairs He permits there is an accompanying greater good".

William Lane Craig says of the atonement,

"How are we to understand this? Well, there is no theory of the atonement that is mandated by Scripture. We are told that Christ gave his life as a sacrificial offering for sin that is efficacious on our behalf. Christian theologians have formulated many different theories of the atonement, which represent different facets of the truth. I think that vital to any adequate theory of the atonement will be the Protestant Reformers’ idea of penal substitution. According to this theory, Christ took upon himself the penalty for sin that we deserved, something that no mere animal (or other sinful human being) could do. He stood as our proxy before God and took the penalty for sin that we deserved. God imputed to him our sin and guilt and in turn imputed to us Christ’s perfect righteousness."

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/what-dying-for-our-sins-mean#ixzz4M2EyD1Yq

So free will is a necessary condition for love. And it is not possible for God to create agents who he forces to "freely" obey him any more than it is possible for God to create square circles or married bachelors.

But the why question is not fully addressed. In fact why this much evil, why this world, why did Christ have to die as the only way, why not just jump straight from this world to the new creation in Revelation where only those people God knew would want to be with him are ever created, are not answered in scripture.

Scripture points us to a coherent description of how we got here, where we go when we die, how to live our lives morally and with meaning. It is not an exhaustive reference compendium. The trust part can be gained by what is provided in scripture and perhaps some experiences and logical arguments. The why is beyond our ken, and God doesn't address it in scripture.

fatboys said:

If God is all powerful why does there have to be an atonement? Why cannot God say to those who sin and repent and change theirs lives to obedience, why did God force us to have a savior. Couldn't God save us with just a word? Is God under a law that he cannot destroy disobedient creations from where they came from? Why is God limited in what he can do?

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Because God is bound by His own Word, He says so Himself in the Word. God is a just God, and He knew that it would take sending Himself down to die for our sins to save us. He's God He knows what needed / needs to be done and who am I or you, or anyone else to question that???

KawaiiChristianGal said:

Because God is bound by His own Word, He says so Himself in the Word. God is a just God, and He knew that it would take sending Himself down to die for our sins to save us. He's God He knows what needed / needs to be done and who am I or you, or anyone else to question that???

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Who is anyone to question anything?
I dunno... maybe to learn something?

A belief system of any substance will welcome any questioning,
and anything founded on truth will be able to withstand any questioning.
It's the ones that forbid questioning that one should be wary of,
lest they land themselves smack dab in the midst of a cult.

In that light, a defensive reaction to such questions seems a tad
misplaced.

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chaela said:

Who is anyone to question anything?
I dunno... maybe to learn something?

A belief system of any substance will welcome any questioning,
and anything founded on truth will be able to withstand any questioning.
It's the ones that forbid questioning that one should be wary of,
lest they land themselves smack dab in the midst of a cult.

In that light, a defensive reaction to such questions seems a tad
misplaced.

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Some things about God I would never question, that has nothing to do with a cult but more so out of respect for my creator.

KawaiiChristianGal said:

Some things about God I would never question, that has nothing to do with a cult but more so out of respect for my creator.

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I never question God. What I do question are "beliefs" about God. That's because from my perspective it isn't about what one believes, it's how one Loves.

dlamberth said:

I never question God. What I do question are "beliefs" about God. That's because from my perspective it isn't about what one believes, it's how one Loves.

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Nothing is wrong about asking beliefs but asking why God did this or did that in my opinion is.

KawaiiChristianGal said:

Nothing is wrong about asking beliefs but asking why God did this or did that in my opinion is.

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I see no difference between asking about beliefs and asking why God did this or that, in my opinion. They are one and the same.

About God desiring a personal relationship with us—the way I see it, having a "personal relationship" with someone means talking back and forth with someone, getting to know them, and both being there to be companions and to help each other. I don't feel my relationship with God in the same way as I do a family member. What we think we most know is from the Bible, and when we think God is speaking to us it can be hard to tell if it is. It's like calling someone and their voicemail saying they'll get back to you ASAP, and they never call you back.

KawaiiChristianGal said:

Because God is bound by His own Word, He says so Himself in the Word. God is a just God, and He knew that it would take sending Himself down to die for our sins to save us. He's God He knows what needed / needs to be done and who am I or you, or anyone else to question that???

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I think this is demonstrative of one of Penal Substitution Theory's flaws: God has to punish Jesus because God's hands are tied by God--God has to punish someone because God has to because He has to.

And yet we see, throughout the Old Testament, that God is perfectly capable of forgiving sins simply because He can, and does. It isn't the blood of bulls and goats that God regards as true sacrifice, but contrition. God can, and does, forgive without any blood needing to be spilt.

Christ suffered and died, not because God needs an offering of flesh and blood to satisfy a convoluted sense of retributive justice; but because in Christ God becomes participant of the human condition--even to the point of death. In dying, Christ has shared in the death of all men, in order that by rising He grants life from death to all men; what was broken by Adam's disobedience is repaired and made whole by Christ's obedience. This is, in a nutshell, the ancient teaching of the Christian Church known as Recapitulation Theory,

"As it has been clearly demonstrated that the Word, who existed in the beginning with God, by whom all things were made, who was also always present with mankind, was in these last days, according to the time appointed by the Father, united to His own workmanship, inasmuch as He became a man liable to suffering, [it follows] that every objection is set aside of those who say, "If our Lord was born at that time, Christ had therefore no previous existence." For I have shown that the Son of God did not then begin to exist, being with the Father from the beginning; but when He became incarnate, and was made man, He commenced afresh the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam— namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God— that we might recover in Christ Jesus." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3.18.1

There is forgiveness in Christ and His death not because God is unable or unwilling to forgive apart from the death of something or someone; but because in Christ God crucifies every debt, every infraction, every transgression and there is, therefore, universal pardon for all on account of the grace and the love which God has for the world; which He is saving by the death and resurrection of His Son. And we, being united to God's Son by His grace, having been baptized and therefore buried with Him, sharing in His death, are also now sharers in His life; and His life is ours as a gift, through faith, by which we are reckoned justified on Christ's account.

Jesus is not the object of Divine wrath by which we escape said wrath; Jesus is God's own Word made flesh, the Word which in the beginning with God the Father through which all things came to be has now become one of us, a human person, and by which God via His Word shares with us all that is ours, in order that we might share in all that is His.

As St. Athanasius says, "[God] became man in order that we might become 'God'". We are therefore reckoned righteous by God's grace, on account of Christ, with His righteousness ours as a gift; and all that Christ has is ours, by the gracious promise and working of God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I think this is demonstrative of one of Penal Substitution Theory's flaws: God has to punish Jesus because God's hands are tied by God--God has to punish someone because God has to because He has to.

And yet we see, throughout the Old Testament, that God is perfectly capable of forgiving sins simply because He can, and does. It isn't the blood of bulls and goats that God regards as true sacrifice, but contrition. God can, and does, forgive without any blood needing to be spilt.

Christ suffered and died, not because God needs an offering of flesh and blood to satisfy a convoluted sense of retributive justice; but because in Christ God becomes participant of the human condition--even to the point of death. In dying, Christ has shared in the death of all men, in order that by rising He grants life from death to all men; what was broken by Adam's disobedience is repaired and made whole by Christ's obedience. This is, in a nutshell, the ancient teaching of the Christian Church known as Recapitulation Theory,

"As it has been clearly demonstrated that the Word, who existed in the beginning with God, by whom all things were made, who was also always present with mankind, was in these last days, according to the time appointed by the Father, united to His own workmanship, inasmuch as He became a man liable to suffering, [it follows] that every objection is set aside of those who say, "If our Lord was born at that time, Christ had therefore no previous existence." For I have shown that the Son of God did not then begin to exist, being with the Father from the beginning; but when He became incarnate, and was made man, He commenced afresh the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam— namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God— that we might recover in Christ Jesus." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3.18.1

There is forgiveness in Christ and His death not because God is unable or unwilling to forgive apart from the death of something or someone; but because in Christ God crucifies every debt, every infraction, every transgression and there is, therefore, universal pardon for all on account of the grace and the love which God has for the world; which He is saving by the death and resurrection of His Son. And we, being united to God's Son by His grace, having been baptized and therefore buried with Him, sharing in His death, are also now sharers in His life; and His life is ours as a gift, through faith, by which we are reckoned justified on Christ's account.

Jesus is not the object of Divine wrath by which we escape said wrath; Jesus is God's own Word made flesh, the Word which in the beginning with God the Father through which all things came to be has now become one of us, a human person, and by which God via His Word shares with us all that is ours, in order that we might share in all that is His.

As St. Athanasius says, "[God] became man in order that we might become 'God'". We are therefore reckoned righteous by God's grace, on account of Christ, with His righteousness ours as a gift; and all that Christ has is ours, by the gracious promise and working of God.

-CryptoLutheran

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If blood was not required then Jesus wouldn't have died but He died so obviously it was required.

KawaiiChristianGal said:

If blood was not required then Jesus wouldn't have died but He died so obviously it was required.

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I would recommend that you re-read my post so that you can actually provide a response and/or a counter-point. As you've done nothing here but present an assertion by way of circular argument.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I would recommend that you re-read my post so that you can actually provide a response and/or a counter-point. As you've done nothing here but present an assertion by way of circular argument.

-CryptoLutheran

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I don't understand why you keep using large words to appear intelligent please speak English.

KawaiiChristianGal said:

I don't understand why you keep using large words to appear intelligent please speak English.

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What exactly did I say that constitutes a "large word"? I'm speaking pretty basic English here.

-CryptoLutheran

KawaiiChristianGal said:

I don't understand why you keep using large words to appear intelligent please speak English.

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From what I read, it looked pretty basic to me. I understood it.

KawaiiChristianGal said:

Some things about God I would never question, that has nothing to do with a cult but more so out of respect for my creator.

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I don't think God even would have a problem with a person questioning Him directly:

"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord..." (Isaiah 1:18)

"Take Me to court; let us argue our case together. State your case, so that you may be vindicated." (Isaiah 43:26)

I don't see God as a shrinking violet who must be protected from direct questioning. If this is going to be a two-way relationship we have with Him, then it should operate as one. If it's merely a one-way dictatorship, well then, yes, I could see how one might balk (and how one might see Him balking) at being questioned.


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chaela said:

I don't think God even would have a problem with a person questioning Him directly:

"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord..." (Isaiah 1:18)

"Take Me to court; let us argue our case together. State your case, so that you may be vindicated." (Isaiah 43:26)

I don't see God as a shrinking violet who must be protected from direct questioning. If this is going to be a two-way relationship we have with Him, then it should operate as one. If it's merely a one-way dictatorship, well then, yes, I could see how one might balk (and how one might see Him balking) at being questioned.


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Those verses are referring to when we get to heaven we shall have an advocate to the Father.