the apocalypse

victorinus said in post 403:

victorinus said:

the apocalypse
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666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine -
rider of the red horse - mohammed -
rider of the black horse - marx -
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
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the timeline of the apocalypse
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daniel
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this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

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here you will find links to subtopics of the apocalypse

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Regarding 666, which is the number of the beast, note that the subtopics of the apocalypse might also include the mark of the beast, the image of the beast, and the religion of the beast.

victorinus said in post 406:

the sword given to the rider of the red horse
might be the mark
to take peace from the world
that they should kill one another

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Regarding the mark, note that the Bible says in:

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here the mark of the beast could be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will also be visible because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason that people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded by the Antichrist, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, 2 thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he is YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he is Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.

victorinus said in post 403:

-so-
you have looked at history
-and-
find no one who could be considered the antichrist?

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No.

Some people consider Nero to have been the Antichrist. But note that Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Also, regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew gematria added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling which adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today, so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers whom he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

victorinus said in post 403:

-so-
you have looked at history
-and-
find no one who could be considered the antichrist?

Click to expand...

No, because, for example, no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says in a deep voice: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

/nvm

/nvm

victorinus said in post 410:

you seem to conflate the man with the beast -
the man can only last a lifetime
-but-
the beast, like no other, can be self sustaining
-and-
could be with us today
-taking peace from the earth

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Note that "beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it is referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

A 2nd aspect of Revelation's beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. The binding of a stone to a scroll by the prophet Jeremiah about the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon, and the casting of the scroll into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom (Jeremiah 51:63-64) could have been a symbolic act which included a representation of the binding of the 4 powerful fallen angels and their being cast into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom.

When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

vinsight4u said in post 411:

Jesus Christ does not come with a sickle in Rev. 20:4 to
reap up the just. Saints are already sitting - they sat. So,
they were earlier resurrected.

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That's right in that it is Revelation 14:14-16 which refers to Jesus sitting with a sickle on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do these things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do these things, even if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

vinsight4u said in post 411:

Jesus Christ does not come with a sickle in Rev. 20:4 to
reap up the just. Saints are already sitting - they sat. So,
they were earlier resurrected.

Click to expand...

That's right in that Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

*******

vinsight4u said in post 412:

...the little horn will seek to change times and laws.

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That's right.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

When this says that he will "think to change times", it isn't (as is sometimes claimed) referring to a pope changing the time of the sabbath, but is referring to the future Antichrist, who could radically change the calendar, to where he even gets rid of the 7-day week altogether, with its connotation to YHWH and his 7-day creation of the world (Genesis 2:2). For the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

The Antichrist could do what the atheists of the French Revolution did: Change the calendar to one consisting of 10-day weeks. Then he could say that every month will consist of 3 of these 10-day weeks, so that the year will consist of 12 months each with exactly 30 days. But because that makes the year only 360 days long, he could add a (holiday) period at the end of the year consisting of 5 or 6 days.

Like they did in the French Revolution, the Antichrist could also change the names of the 12 months to whatever pleases him. And he could change the names of the 10 days of the week to whatever pleases him.

The Antichrist's changing of "times" could even extend to the hour, minute, and second. He could replace the 60-second minute with a 10-second "new minute", and the 60-minute hour with a 10-new-minute "new hour", so that the decimal-based metric system will finally be extended to time-keeping.

But because the new, 100-second new-hours would mean that there would be 864 new-hours in a day, he could change the length of the second to a "new-second" consisting of about 86.4 of our current seconds, so that there will be exactly 10 new-hours in every day. Times shorter than the new-second would be metric: the deci-new-second, the centi-new-second (about .864 the length of our current second), the milli-new-second, etc.

So the Antichrist's "changing of times" could seem pretty neat to the world (and to metric-system-loving scientists): 10 days in a week, 10 hours in a day, 10 minutes in an hour, 10 seconds in a minute.

This could all be sold to the world as part of a "New World Order", as a way of "finally shedding all the archaic time-keeping conventions of the past, and replacing them with a modern and scientific system of time-keeping in line with the metric system of weights and measures, which has already proven such a boon to mankind".

/nvm

vinsight4u said in post 416:

The little horn rises after ten kings come
first, and later he will only have 42 months left.

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That's right, and regarding the 42 months, they and the 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", are all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days, and the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5), and the 400 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Genesis 15:13 were literal years.

The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled, not even during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism sometimes mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

/nvm

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