Revelation 13

Wildfire · Feb 15, 2002

A question for all who are interested in the end time prophecy, and read the book of Revelation;

what is your knowledge and/or intuition of ending of this chapter concerning the beast;

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to recieve a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom: Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man: and his number is six hundred threescore and six.

I have pondered over this for a long time, and would welcome any opinions. Thanks

Evee · Mar 9, 2003

I believe it to be a literal mark where it can be scanned.

 If you don't have the mark then you don't get the merchandise. 

 It has to be a visible mark so you will be able to buy or sell.

 What do you think?

Brain Damage · Mar 9, 2003

Hey wildfire I found this post of yours in the archives and it seems it didn't get much of a response so i've bumped it up .
This is always an interesting subject and one which I hope will get a response as I'm also interested to hear other peoples oppinions on this .

Hey how did you do that Evee!!  I was just bumping this out of the archives and yet you posted before me . :scratch:

Boy!!  you women are fast 

   LOL

Wildfire · Mar 9, 2003

Thanks!

(strange), because I have been wanting to discuss this very subject.

What I find to be the most important factor in verses 16-18 of Rev. is that we are told to COUNT the number of the beast.

I see this as; counting the number (quanity) of the beast (those who support dominant world power).

The beast is the number of a man.
His number is: 666

If we were to apply mathematics, we could say that 666 is a percentage of the world population at the reign of the beast; leaving only 034% on earth who are christians.

Just thinking, Wildfire

ephod · Mar 9, 2003

Doreen · Mar 10, 2003

i think that it is a real mark such as a microchip with a tattoo over it or something like that.  Otherwise how would people buy and sell during that time. 

AChildOfGodWithIronFaith · Mar 10, 2003

i actually heard someone speculate that it would be something inserted into your hand. like a bar code for people. except it would be used for the devil's use....

Brain Damage · Mar 10, 2003

Today at 03:40 AM ephod said this in Post #5

The mark (Gr. charagma) must not be taken literally as in most of John's imagery. The mark received is a parody or counterfeit to the seal received by the children of God, see Rev 14:1, this seal is not a visible seal. They have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads, if we do not take this as a literal mark then it is likely that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark. Here it is described in v17 'the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name' which is identified as 666 in verse 18. It is closely linked to those who worship the beast and his image, it marks them as his (the beast's). It is received on the forehead meaning their mind or on the hand meaning their actions i.e. anyone who follows the philosophy or who carries out the actions of the beast. The characteristics of those so marked is described in Rev 21:8, also Rev 22:15, everyone who loves (mark on the forehead) and practises falsehood (mark on the hand). From Rom 12:1 those who worship the beast are those who are conformed to the pattern of this world (worldly) and are not renewed in their mind, they do not obey the will of God. The mark can mean ownership, devotion, acceptance of the authority of the beast, just as the seal of God marks out those who are His, so the mark of the beast marks out those who are his. Not only cattle but slaves were branded as a mark of ownership. Perhaps John is also thinking of the marks of the cross that Jesus bore on his hands and the marks caused by the crown of thorns. Those who receive this mark are going to be punished along with the beast (Rev 14:9-11, 19:20). Those who worship the beast and his image and those who receive the mark of his name are the same (4:11). The saints are those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands (20:4). The saints are those who worship God (11:1), obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus (14:12).

 

Now that's an interesting point of view ephod , I also looked up the word "SEALED" on Bible Gateway and was amazed at what I found .

I'll place the link here for anyone concerned  :

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=sealed&SearchType=AND&version=NKJV&restrict=New_Testament&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=10&y=0

The only problem I would have with this view is the "buying and selling".     I'm not sure on how it fits in with a non visible mark , any ideas?

PS.  Good post ephod...you've got me thinking .

ephod · Mar 10, 2003

Wildfire · Mar 10, 2003

I agree 100% with what ephod said, I do NOT believe this mark is a visible device, but a spiritual form of loyalty.
Notice what revelation says about the mark of worship, outside of chapter 13:

Rev 7:3

Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, TILL WE HAVE SEALED THE SERVANTS OF OUR GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 14:1

And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Si'-on and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, HAVING HIS FATHERS NAME WRITTEN IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 9:4

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any tree; BUT ONLY THOSE MEN WHICH HAVE NOT THE SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 20:4

And I saw the thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had NOT WORSHIPPED the beast, neither his image, neither HAD RECIEVED HIS MARK upon their foreheads, or in their hands: and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There appear to be two marks spoken of: one that is the seal (or mark) of God, and one that is the mark of the beast.

The angels are commanded to seal the servants in their foreheads, so that can not be a physical, visible seal.

It is spiritual.

Now the NUMBER of those servants who follow after the beast, and choose to worship it, and not God may be exceedingly great AT THAT TIME. Which may be why we are told to count it. But we cannot be certain, until that time comes.

The 'buying and selling' may be chillingly similiar to how the Jews were treated during the holocaust. They were taken from their homes and belongings, and businesses; and seperated from their families and killed in inhumane ways. They were not allowed to 'buy or sell' during the years of their persecution, and those who helped them, were at the mercy of being killed by the Germans.

This final kingdom will be the persecution of the christians, and it is my belief that satan will seperate christians from their property. Were this nation to fall under a future Islamic law, then christians would suffer greatly.

We know that the dragon turns his wrath from the woman (Israel) and persecutes those who keep the commandments of God, during his short time on earth.
This would mark the great tribulation.

Wildfire

JesusServant · Mar 10, 2003

I gave a lot of consideration to the invisible mark, but the part about not being able to buy without the mark means it has to be visible or at least scannable in some way. That's why Digital Angel and Verichip have sparked so much controversy. I think it's going to be more subtle then these microchips, I think satan is smarter in his deception than this, it's too obvious.

My view on Revelation today is, when all of the final prophesies begin to unfold all people who have the Holy Spirit will know exactly what is going on and will not be deceived. Those without the Holy Spirit will be easily deceived because they won't have God's Spirit to direct them in what is deception and what is of God.

(Matthew 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It will not be possible to deceive the very elect because the HS dwelling in them will not allow them to be deceived.

Wildfire · Mar 10, 2003

Yes, JS I agree. Now I have noticed that there is a link between the IMAGE of the beast and the MARK;

This comes with the second beast, that had two horns like a lamb (false christ) and he spake as a dragon (satan).

And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST beast, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST beast, whose deadly wound (of the head, which indicates a nation wounded by war), and was HEALED.

This nation apparently regains it's power.

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

Sounds like visual war.

And DECEIVETH them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles (or technology) which he had power to do in the sight of the (first) beast; SAYING TO THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH, THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE AN IMAGE TO THE BEAST, which had the wound by a sword and did live.

The second beast here is greatly reinforcing the first beast.

And he had power to GIVE LIFE TO THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST, that the image of the beast should both SPEAK, and cause that as many as would NOT WORSHIP THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST, SHOULD BE KILLED.

*Over the years, the ability to make an image has drastically improved. We went from painting and drawing, to photographs, and television, and computer, and satellites. We have the ability to see any image on this earth through the power of these devices.

But HOW will they cause others to 'make an image' to the beast?

We know that he (second beast) causeth ALL; small, great, rich, poor, free, or bond to RECIEVE a mark in their right hand (decision, direction) or in their foreheads (thoughts, mindset).

By making an IMAGE to the first beast, which was given LIFE by the second beast, which should both SPEAK, and CAUSETH>>...that those who WOULD NOT WORSHIP the image should be killed.

One has something to do with the other.

Identifying what the image is, when the time comes, may be the piece to understanding this very complex piece of prophecy.

Wildfire

FaithtoFaith · Mar 10, 2003

Yesterday at 09:40 PM ephod said this in Post #5

The mark (Gr. charagma) must not be taken literally as in most of John's imagery. The mark received is a parody or counterfeit to the seal received by the children of God, see Rev 14:1, this seal is not a visible seal. They have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads, if we do not take this as a literal mark then it is likely that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark. Here it is described in v17 'the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name' which is identified as 666 in verse 18. It is closely linked to those who worship the beast and his image, it marks them as his (the beast's). It is received on the forehead meaning their mind or on the hand meaning their actions i.e. anyone who follows the philosophy or who carries out the actions of the beast. The characteristics of those so marked is described in Rev 21:8, also Rev 22:15, everyone who loves (mark on the forehead) and practises falsehood (mark on the hand). From Rom 12:1 those who worship the beast are those who are conformed to the pattern of this world (worldly) and are not renewed in their mind, they do not obey the will of God. The mark can mean ownership, devotion, acceptance of the authority of the beast, just as the seal of God marks out those who are His, so the mark of the beast marks out those who are his. Not only cattle but slaves were branded as a mark of ownership. Perhaps John is also thinking of the marks of the cross that Jesus bore on his hands and the marks caused by the crown of thorns. Those who receive this mark are going to be punished along with the beast (Rev 14:9-11, 19:20). Those who worship the beast and his image and those who receive the mark of his name are the same (4:11). The saints are those who had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands (20:4). The saints are those who worship God (11:1), obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus (14:12).

That's a very interesting way to look at.  What about not being able to buy, sell, etc. without the mark?  There would have to be a way to tell you were not the Lord's, wouldn't there?

Sorry, I didn't see the other posts with the same responses. 

Evee · Mar 10, 2003

It is not hard for me to believe that the mark will be a literal mark.

 How else would we not be able to buy or sell?

 

FaithtoFaith · Mar 10, 2003

Yesterday at 05:36 PM Wildfire said this in Post #4

Thanks!

(strange), because I have been wanting to discuss this very subject.

What I find to be the most important factor in verses 16-18 of Rev. is that we are told to COUNT the number of the beast.

I see this as; counting the number (quanity) of the beast (those who support dominant world power).

The beast is the number of a man.
His number is: 666

If we were to apply mathematics, we could say that 666 is a percentage of the world population at the reign of the beast; leaving only 034% on earth who are christians.

Just thinking, Wildfire

Wildfire, this is also interesting because doesn't the old testament also mention that 1/3 of the angels fell from heaven.  So, maybe then one third christians will take their place?  Bare with me, I'm looking for the scipture!

paulewog · Mar 10, 2003

I don't think we should read a terrible amount of stuff into the numbers 666.

And Christians don't take the place of angels - angels are different than men

FaithtoFaith · Mar 10, 2003

Today at 02:23 PM paulewog said this in Post #16

I don't think we should read a terrible amount of stuff into the numbers 666.

And Christians don't take the place of angels - angels are different than men

You're absolutely right, I don't mean take the place as in their service and duty, I mean the space in heaven.   God is a God of numbers, so there is a significance in the number of angels, men, etc.  I just don't have a clue as to what it is, but it is very interesting.

ephod · Mar 10, 2003

Wildfire · Mar 10, 2003

Ephod; are you referring to science, and the possibility of human cloning? The ability to make life (without God) would be frightening to this world. I immediately remember reading somewhere in the scriptures (I can't think of it) that women shall give birth to monsters in the last days; and is this what Christ could have been referring to when he said:

Weep not for me but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
For behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Then they shall begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, cover us.

But woe unto them that are with suck, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land and WRATH UPON THIS PEOPLE.

Wildfire

ephod · Mar 10, 2003

Revelation 13

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Can I go back to sleep now?

i'm a princess. my Father is the King of Kings!!

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do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

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