Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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The verses below describe the same event because of their similar language -- Son of Man – clouds of heaven – gather – harvested -- reap.

Matthew – ‘Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven… they will gather his elect from the four winds.’

Revelation – ‘a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man… a sharp sickle in his hand… called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap… and the earth was harvested.’

Matthew – ‘Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven… they will gather his elect from the four winds.’

Revelation‘a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man… a sharp sickle in his hand… called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap… and the earth was harvested.’

clouds (plural) + a white cloud, cloud, cloud (singular) = Fail








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Psalm3704

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There is no resurrection anywhere or any-time -- prior to the Rider coming on the ‘White horse,’ 19:11. The two resurrections happen after this event.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,

And will no more cover her slain.


RESURRECTION IN 14:15-16
Having said that, 14:15-16 does describe the resurrection. ((Revelation 14:15-16 “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.))

This is a resurrection event.

It's a foolish claim based on unsound and unmerited speculation unsupported by scripture except in the minds of those gullible of what they hear in the media.

Read what I wrote to you in post 347. It's reveals in verses 12-13 that even some of the saints will die from the wrath. No one will be spared when in harm's way. If a nuclear bomb drops on a city, everyone in the city dies, not just the wicked.

~In Revelation 14:12-13, it reveals the death of the saints during the wrath. There will be no discrimination, everyone good and bad will die in harm's way. Only the 144,000 are protected with God's seal.

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

If Revelation 14:15-16 is a resurrection, why would Christ resurrect them and then immediately destroy them?








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Riberra

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((Revelation 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.))
  1. Are you saying that 'they reigned with Christ a thousand years,' having been resurrected at the beginning of the thousand years? ((Revelation 20:5 This is the first resurrection.)) It is the resurrection of the just.
  2. Or are you suggesting that they came to life 'sometime during the thousand years,' and 'spend only a portion of the thousand years with Christ?'
If you identify with Point 1, then I totally agree with you.
I identify with Point 1.
 
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Psalm3704

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He will not destroy them. He is going to reap the earth once
the last of the martyrs with faith in Jesus/Him comes in as
slain. This is when John watched the resurrection of the just
and the rapture scene. the earth was reaped
at the time of the sickle
sickle - shows harvest
There is no sickle at Armageddon - or during the vials, nor
when John was caught up in the spirit to get visions.

Than who destroys the antichrist and his army at Armageddon? Do they just faint and die when they reach the valley of Megido?








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Psalm3704

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I'm not posting this to rekindle an argument between ededmelech and myself but am doing so to answer a very important question most Christians didn't realized. I am only posting this to be informative and reveal what Adam and Eve looked like in the garden and what everyone will look like someday at a time after the millennium when we will once again live with God in Him presence.

Adam and Eve died spiritually in their sin against God. God did not cover them with fig leaves...they covered themselves because their eyes opened to their nakedness through their sin!

Now...the first sacrifice was an animal which God killed and used the skin to cover their nakedness. It' right there in Genesis 3:21! That sacrifice of that animal set the pattern of animal sacrifice for sin.

Here's the bible verse (Genesis 3:21) most scholars draw to a erroneous conclusion that after the fall, God had covered Adam and Eve with animal skin to hide their nudity. However, we see in Genesis 2:25 Adam and Eve were already naked and not ashamed of their appearance. After their fall when their eyes were opened, it's apparent they were not trying to cover nudity with fig leaves. Afterall, they were the only two people in the world, and God already knows what everyone looks like. So what was Adam and Eve truly trying to cover?

Genesis 3:21 New King James Version (NKJV)

Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

Genesis 2:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
https://redeeminggod.com/first-sacrifice-genesis-3_21/
Did God Perform the First Sacrifice in Genesis 3:21?

Many believe that the first sacrifice was carried out by God Himself in Genesis 3:21 which says that God made tunics of skin for Adam and Eve so that they could be clothed.

Did God Sacrifice an Animal in Genesis 3:21?
Although the text says nothing about a sacrifice, many believe that a sacrifice is implied.

It is often taught that after the first sin was committed, God wanted to show Adam and Eve that sin has consequences, and so He slew an animal in front of them, and made clothes for them from the hide of the dead animal.

Some have even speculated that the animal was a lamb, thereby presenting a prophetical picture of Jesus, the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 5:6; 13:8).

Furthermore, some have argued that in this death of the animal, God was teaching Adam and Eve the theological principle of substitutionary atonement. He had told Adam that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die, and so after they ate of the fruit, God should have killed them, but instead He killed an animal in their place.

But Did God Really Perform the First Sacrifice?
But is any of this really true? Did God really practice the first animal sacrifice? Was it truly a lamb? Did God intend for Adam and Eve to learn about substitutionary atonement?

Frankly, this seems to be an awful lot to read into one single verse which says nothing other than that “God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.”

The death of an animal is never mentioned.

A lamb is never mentioned.

Substitutionary atonement isn’t even inferred.
One other critical note to consider. Drawing the conclusion of an animal sacrifice would contradict what the bible teaches about God's dwelling place in the supernatural, a place that does not involve the presence any type of death.

The Mystery of God Revealed
ADAM AND EVE HAD BODIES CLOTHED WITH LIGHT

Read more here: http://themysteryofgodrevealed.com/?p=10

Two Natures in Adam [edit]
There are, however, two points of view regarding man's nature presented in the two Biblical stories of man's creation; and they are brought out more forcibly in the Haggadah. "Both worlds, heaven and earth, were to have a share in man's creation; hence the host of angels were consulted by the Lord when He said, 'Let us make man'" (Genesis i. 26, Genesis Rabba viii.). [2] His body reached from earth to heaven [or from one end of the world to the other] before sin caused him to sink" (Ḥag. 12a, Talmud tractate Sanhedrin 38b).[2] "He was of extreme beauty and sunlike brightness" (B. B. 58a).[2] "His skin was a bright garment, shining like his nails; when he sinned this brightness vanished, and he appeared naked" (Targum Yer. Gen. iii. 7; Genesis Rabba xi.).

But tradition often says that Adam and Eve had garments of light before the fall. When they ate the fruit, they lost their garment of light. Their glory or light was replaced with a garment of skin — their own skin, not that of animals.

http://www.deilataylor.com/the-lord-made-garments-of-skin/

1. From glory to nakedness. 132 Though “naked” because their knowledge of their premortal state had been taken away by a veil of forgetfulness, 133 Adam and Eve had come to Eden nonetheless “trailing clouds of glory.” 134 While the couple, as yet, were free from transgression, they could stand “naked” in God’s presence without shame, 135 being “clothed with purity” 136 in what early commentators called “garments of light” 137 or “garments of contentment.” 138 In one source, Eve describes her appearance by saying: “I was decked out like a bride, And I reclined in a wedding chamber of light.”139

http://templethemes.net/corrigenda/p. 236.pdf


Dialogue between Adam and Eve after the fall.

Adam says
My body was like the sun,
Scintillating with shining spirit.
It flowered with light, copy of God,
It was ranked among angels.

Eve says
I was decked out like a bride,
And I reclined in a wedding-chamber of light.
I rejoiced gloriously like a queen,
Scintillating as I shone anew.

https://books.google.com/books?id=FzcTDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=my+body+was+like+the+sun+scintillating+with+shining+spirit&source=bl&ots=_z_Oe3Zbhq&sig=VhtDjmed1q_vPEsf2sJMR9aZD9c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM4LqcoaDPAhVBSGMKHUwnAvEQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=my body was like the sun scintillating with shining spirit&f=false

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Biblical Evidences

In the book of 1st Corinthians 15, Paul tells us we will someday not longer be in the image of man, but in the images of Christ after the "final" resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 Good News Translation (GNT)

47 The first Adam, made of earth, came from the earth; the second Adam came from heaven. 48 Those who belong to the earth are like the one who was made of earth; those who are of heaven are like the one who came from heaven.49 Just as we wear the likeness of the man made of earth, so we will wear the likeness of the Man from heaven.
Scriptures on the radiant appearance of Christ

Acts 9:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”


Acts 22:6-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

2 Thessalonians 2:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Isaiah 30:26-27
26 The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted. 27 Behold, the name of the LORD comes from a remote place; Burning is His anger and dense is His smoke; His lips are filled with indignation And His tongue is like a consuming fire;

John 8:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

1 Peter 2:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Ephesians 5:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Therefore He says:
“Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light.”

Luke 9:28-32 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him.

Colossians 1:15 Good News Translation (GNT)
Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.


About God

Psalm 104:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul!
O Lord my God, You are very great:
You are clothed with honor and majesty,
2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment,
Who stretch out the heavens like a curtain.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.


Other Scriptures

After 40 days in the holy presence of God, Moses face had changed.

Exodus 34:29-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.


2 Corinthians 3:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Psalm 34:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
They looked to Him and were radiant,
And their faces were not ashamed.


Ecclesiastes 8:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Who is like a wise man?
And who knows the interpretation of a thing?
A man’s wisdom makes his face shine,
And the sternness of his face is changed.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The appearance of Adam and eve after the fall

After the sin, they fell from grace and lost what covered them: their glory (Garment of Light). Instead, they were instantly covered in extreme shame and disgrace which bear their sin to a point that they even hid themselves from God. In the future, some will be covered in everlasting contempt, while others will shine like heaven. And some will be as glorious like stars. Christ is the most righteous of all shines 7 times brighter than the sun, Isaiah 30:26-27.

Daniel 12:2-3
2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.


Matthew 13:43 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Acts of righteousness and leading others to righteousness are very important while we still have time before Christ comes for the church.




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PanDeVida

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This thread is to discuss what is important. does it truly matter when the rapture happens? Or does it matter more what we do until then seeing as how the bible states that we will never know the time, day, month, or year?

THIS IS ONLY FOR DEBATE NOT CONVERTING.

If it gets to wild and people start hating on others beliefs then I will ask that he thread be taken down.

The object is to have a good healthy discussion with the KINGDOM and not single denominations.

I like to style myself as the Pentecostal Lutheran, I was raised Lutheran but now attend and am a leader at a Church of God (TN) church

Talwin, The Truth is always a good healthy discussion.

How many comings of Christ are there in Scripture? Where dose Scripture say that there will be an in-between coming? and if so, that will make it 3 comings of Christ. Truly when Christ comes again, it would be his Second and final Coming, and no in-betweens as Hollywood wants the christians to believe, i.e. "Left Behind Series". or as I call it, "Lead Astray Series".

The first 1800 years there was no Apostle/Bishop/Priest/Pastor who preached about the rapture. Not even John Calvin nor the founding Father Protestantism, Martin Luther, believed that there would be a rapture.

The first preacher who preached the rapture gospel was Edward Irving during the mid-1800. Irving held some eccentric positions on the use of "spiritual" gifts, including speaking in tongues and prophesying. He contended that these gifts were for the present day "church", and had quite a few followers of his radical notions. However, when chaotic disturbances arose in Irving's services during the manifestations of these "gifts", the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) took action, dismissing Irving from his position as minister in 1832. The ultimate result of Irving's dismissal was the formation of the Catholic Apostolic Church, which still exists until this day. Irving's movement grew and became the basis of modern day pentecostalism. The natural evolution of this movement has resulted in the recent emergence of the "Toronto Laughing Spirit" phenomenon which has seduced and mislead more than a few well-intentioned people. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”

Ant-christ, is coming that is fact, however, every Christian will have to go through the persecution, Jesus Christ said that we must carry our cross.


 
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ebedmelech

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Giving up so soon Eb?

Not that easy to find the "right" answer is it when you google Genesis 3:21 and all the websites think it's an animal skin. Now you've run out of rebuttals, except having repeatedly say you don't get it.

Here's your problem, you're looking at the wrong place. To find out what Adam and Eve looked like you have to find out what the bible say about what we'll look like when God lives among us after the millennium. Adam and Eve lived with God, so will we someday. The bible tells us what we'll look like someday. Here's two passages.

Daniel 12:2-3 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

And no Eb! Adam and Eve were not nude when their eyes opened after eating the fruit. Naked doesn't always mean nudity, perverted old man. They sewed themselves fig leaves and were already covered. Besides, how can you hide your body from God, He already knows what each of us looks like. And they were the only two people in the world at the time. Who are they gonna hide nudity from?

This was what happened. After the sin, they fell from grace and lost what covered them. Instead, they were instantly covered in extreme shame and disgrace which bear their sin to a point that they even hid themselves from God. That's how embarrassing it can get for those in the future. Read Daniel 12:2 again.

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Need more passages? Get it yourself, you might learn something new and very important most Christian don't even know.
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I've been a little busy with work...but this is my response:
No. I don't give up. However what I don't do is continue to deal with those who impose on scripture instead of allowing scripture to say what it says.

If Adam and Eve's eyes were not open to their nudity...why would they cover themselves? I mean really...you're working real hard at winning an argument rather than embracing the truth!

I've read quite a few of your posts Psalm3704...and the fact is you pretty much want to win arguments, rather than come to the truth of scripture. Even though you know you're wrong about something...you won't admit it.
 
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Psalm3704

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I've been a little busy with work...but this is my response:
No. I don't give up. However what I don't do is continue to deal with those who impose on scripture instead of allowing scripture to say what it says.

Did all those scriptures I posted at #371 just go over your head?

If Adam and Eve's eyes were not open to their nudity...why would they cover themselves? I mean really...you're working real hard at winning an argument rather than embracing the truth!

I already gave you the answer on posts #371 and #300. Did both posts go over your head also?

I've read quite a few of your posts Psalm3704...and the fact is you pretty much want to win arguments, rather than come to the truth of scripture. Even though you know you're wrong about something...you won't admit it.

No! You're off but a million miles....as usual. If I wanted to win arguments, I would of responded to vinsight's post #372 on Wednesday. I even wrote on the top of post #371 I'm not interested in arguments. There's many people avoid having arguments with. I only argue with a small number of people on this forum that loves to promote heresy against the pre-trib rapture.

What I did was used you as a guinea pig to allow me to reveal a mystery of God to the readers. If you didn't want to argue, why initiate the bait? Why continue after two weeks absence? All I did was make the best out of it and turned it into an opportunity to disclose valuable information not many people knew, but at your expense.

I couldn't have done so had you not pulled a strawman changing the subject to Adam. Go ahead and have the last word ebedmelech, that seems to be your idea of winning arguments. I already know your game, and know how to play them to my benefit to help others learn.

I accomplished what I set out to do after posting #371 and got my message across....at your expense.









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ebedmelech

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Did all those scriptures I posted at #371 just go over your head?



I already gave you the answer on posts #371 and #300. Did both posts go over your head also?



No! You're off but a million miles....as usual. If I wanted to win arguments, I would of responded to vinsight's post #372 on Wednesday. I even wrote on the top of post #371 I'm not interested in arguments. There's many people avoid having arguments with. I only argue with a small number of people on this forum that loves to promote heresy against the pre-trib rapture.

What I did was used you as a guinea pig to allow me to reveal a mystery of God to the readers. If you didn't want to argue, why initiate the bait? Why continue after two weeks absence? All I did was make the best out of it and turned it into an opportunity to disclose valuable information not many people knew, but at your expense.

I couldn't have done so had you not pulled a strawman changing the subject to Adam. Go ahead and have the last word ebedmelech, that seems to be your idea of winning arguments. I already know your game, and know how to play them to my benefit to help others learn.

I accomplished what I set out to do after posting #371 and got my message across....at your expense..

You really continue to show what you don't understand from scripture Psalm3704. Nothing you say can "go over my head"...but it does make me scratch my head as to how you read scripture.

Lastly how can anything said against the pretrib rapture be heresy when it isn't even an essential doctrine?
 
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Graham Dull

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How many armies

REVELATION
I am getting confused over the countless raptures/resurrections talked about on this site. Revelation mentions just ’two.’ ((Revelation 20:4-5 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.))

ACTS
Acts mentions two ((Acts 24:15 There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.))

MATTHEW
Jesus recognizes two groups. ((Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats… 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”))

Vinsight4u, how many raptures/resurrections do you recognise as being recorded in Revelation?
And where are they mentioned?




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Graham Dull

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A new throne is seen by John...a great white throne.
Only now can the wicked rise to be judged. They died in their sins.

Revelation 20:5-10 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended… When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle... But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

How can the wicked be judged in Revelation 20:11, when they were resurrected in Revelation 20:5, and had already been destroyed by fire in Revelation 20:9?



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