Once Saved, Always Saved?

Do you agree with OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

  • Yes

  • No


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Wordkeeper

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sculleywr

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bumping my post.
The Israelites still had to look, didn't they? The snake healed those who did an action.

But unlike the snake, which healed from a TEMPORAL illness, Christ heals from an ETERNAL illness. Hence Hebrews 12 says:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

This is something that is necessary to that question: how can a person be once saved, always saved, if he must FIX HIS EYES on Jesus. If you're already saved from the illness, then there is no need for you to do more. If a person is cured of meningitis, he does not then continue taking antibiotics after his antibiotic regimen is finished.

If salvation is finished at the initial conversion, then there is no need for the rest of the Bible. Literally, all you need is the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, then a message to ask His forgiveness for salvation. That's literally all that is needed. If OSAS, then the question is, why the rest of the Bible?
 
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sculleywr

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The race is tightening. It is now 53 Yes and 55 No.
There was a time when most people would have answered a poll asking "Is Jesus really God?" with this close of a polling result. If polls determined truth, then the dozens of polls that Arianism won in the fourth century meant that Jesus wasn't really God...

Good to know that polls don't determine Truth.
 
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Alithis

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You stated a theory . You can't demonstrate how it works. It's called making false claims.
rubbish . i was quoting the scripture, not stating a theory .
paul said "So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me"

its in quotation marks for a reason .
 
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Wordkeeper

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rubbish . i was quoting the scripture, not stating a theory .
paul said "So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me"

its in quotation marks for a reason .

Your theory is, " messenger of Satan" is "messenger of satan", a direct translation.
Words aren't always taken literally. Is Jesus really a door, with hinges and a handle?

John 10:1
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber."

Door is a metaphor, meaning Way.

So what does messenger of satan mean?

Did Paul boast, "I got a messenger from Satan and youse other fellas don't! " ?
 
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justification is not transformation. why are you even insisting the issue ?

transformation belongs in the realm of regeneration & sanctification.

your problem here is the order, putting a blend of sanctification preceding justification and the cause of it.

this is like placing romans 6 and ff, before romans 1-5.

i do not see romans and james in conflict at all. there is a bit of prejudice in your part here that you will not admit. honestly i have no problem with both texts as the contextual issues addressed are different.

your issues with 'forcing against one's will' is purely an argument from philosophical speculation. both regenerate and unregenerate people are not forced against their own will. they do what they do because they desire to do it. that's all that can be said about it.

It comes from the meaning of the words and etymology of what they meant when they were first used, not their modern usage. Imputation means that one is only ASCRIBED the righteousness. They aren't transformed:

1540s, noun of action from impute (v.) on model of Middle French imputation, or else from Late Latin imputationem (nominative imputatio) "a charge, an account," noun of action from Latin imputare "to charge, ascribe."

If I imputed my debts to you, would that mean that you did anything to earn them or that they were really yours? No. It means that the reputation of those debts are ascribed to you. This happens a lot in modern Credit Bureaus, where people get bad credit scores because someone who has the same name as them has a lot of debt. In one case, a person was denied an apartment because a miscommunication in one of the credit bureaus labeled, or imputed, the title of terrorist to him, and the actual terrorist in question was both dead and didn't even have the same name as he did.

That is what imputation is. That is what it meant when it was first being used. Sure, you've modernized it, but that doesn't change its etymology. This is what it meant when it was first being used in the Reformation. You can't escape the meaning of a word simply because you use it differently. The people who first coined the term used it this way. This is why Orthodox reject the term altogether. The meaning of words is very important, especially for a person like me, an interpreter between languages. It has been my job to understand words and their meanings. So when you come at me with a word like Imputation and get surprised when I realize that it shares the same etymology as reputation, being from the same language with the same root word "Putare", then you're looking for a ballgame that's not in your league.

Moving on...

Since Romans says we are not justified by works OF THE LAW, and James says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone, then either James is speaking of some other kind of works, or either James or Paul are talking of the same thing and one is wrong. See, your Romans Switchback doesn't really help you here because it ignores the whole of Romans for a simpler, easier salvation that is really just spiritual fire insurance. That's all OSAS is in the end. Fire insurance. If there is literally nothing you can do, even of your own free will, to give up salvation, then you:

1. Do not really have free will, but are forced to do things against your will.
2. Do not need to worry about a thing. Eat, drink, and be merry, for even if tomorrow you die, you still get eternity in heaven, because that's all that really matters.

That last one is pretty much perfectly summed up in the most common question I hear at invitations in Protestant services. I heard this phrase so many times at Tennessee Temple University, West Jacksonville Baptist Church, Highland Park Baptist Church, and every other Baptist church I have been in, from so many different pastors, I wondered if someone had printed the question into their Bibles somewhere:

"If you died today, do you know if you would be in heaven?"

or

"If you died today and God asked you 'why should I let you into My heaven?' what would you say?"

The questions center upon the final destination, and not the final relationship.

To be quite frank, if I had to go to hell itself in order to spend eternity with Christ, the price of hell would be cheap compared to the benefits of the relationship with Christ. I really don't like the idea of hell, but if that is where I would be if I had a relationship with Christ, then sobeit. I'll take hell with Christ over heaven without.

Salvation, for the Orthodox, has nothing to do with the where. God is everywhere present and filling all things. Saying there is a place God is not is like saying that there's a place where nothing exists at all. Even total vacuum is filled with virtual particles popping in and out of existence at all times. That's just how God created the universe. For me, being saved is knowing everything there is to know about Christ, in the same way that a husband knows his wife, not as a list of facts about her, but as a lifetime of experiences, an eternity of experiences with Him.

This is the reason that salvation is never OSAS for the Orthodox, because the very meaning of salvation is fundamentally different. For the Orthodox, whether we go to heaven is immaterial. It's a consequence of the relationship, not the goal of the relationship.
 
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sculleywr

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justification is not transformation. why are you even insisting the issue ?

transformation belongs in the realm of regeneration & sanctification.

your problem here is the order, putting a blend of sanctification preceding justification and the cause of it.

this is like placing romans 6 and ff, before romans 1-5.

i do not see romans and james in conflict at all. there is a bit of prejudice in your part here that you will not admit. honestly i have no problem with both texts as the contextual issues addressed are different.

your issues with 'forcing against one's will' is purely an argument from philosophical speculation. both regenerate and unregenerate people are not forced against their own will. they do what they do because they desire to do it. that's all that can be said about it.
Justification isn't transformation, FOR YOU. That's the key. It's only a modern result of the Roman Catholic view of sin.

And yes, a person is forced to do things against their will, or they do not have free will, in which case they are not responsible IN ANY WAY for their sins or good deeds EQUALLY. Here's the thing, salvation for the Orthodox is the relationship. For you, it's just heaven. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Christ's relationship as the end itself. The relationship with Christ is the means to the end, but it isn't the end that is really important for a person who sees salvation as heaven. For the Orthodox, Heaven is just a means to achieving a relationship with Christ. Everything, marriage, Baptism, Communion, Confession, even praying to the Saints is about ultimately obtaining a relationship with Christ. Think of it, if you want a relationship with someone, who do you ask for information? You talk to their friends and get to know their interests, not just from them, but from their friends and family. When you marry someone, you don't just marry them, you marry the whole family.

We Orthodox do the same. If Salvation is simply a lottery where you only win if you're regenerated in a random or arbitrary manner, then there's no need for Scripture at all. If Salvation is simply a one time decision you make and then it's over with, then there's no point to any Scripture aside from Christ coming to earth, being born, dying, and rising from the dead, and a short message to ask forgiveness for sin and boom, you're in. None of the other Scriptures are necessary in that view either. In Pelagianism, the story of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection are really just garnish, while the real saving parts are in the instructions on holy living. But in Orthodoxy, literally every single part of Scripture has some connection to salvation. All of them. From "in the beginning" to "Described in this scroll", every word of Scripture is intimately connected to our salvation, because they ALL tell us something about Christ. The Cloud of Witnesses is the Saints who have gone before and who walk with us today. We look to them for examples of how to please Christ. We find instructions on how to love Christ in Scripture.

Christ did not answer the question "how do I obtain eternal life" with "just be regenerated" or "just ask me to come into your heart". He said "DO". In one case, his instruction was for a man to give up all his earthly belongings and give the proceeds to the poor. In another, his instruction was "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself". In neither of these cases did He say that the action of obtaining eternal life was entirely in God's hands OR in the hands of the person. It was in both. It was in the relationship. And the only way a relationship can be salvation is through synergism. Relationships are never one-sided affairs. In fact, one-sided relationships are always unhealthy. The relationship between the man who tried to kill the president and the famous actress was completely one-sided. The relationship between an abusive man and a terrified wife is one-sided. A healthy relationship is two ways.
 
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Alithis

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Your theory is, " messenger of Satan" is "messenger of satan", a direct translation.
Words aren't always taken literally. Is Jesus really a door, with hinges and a handle?

John 10:1
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber."

Door is a metaphor, meaning Way.

So what does messenger of satan mean?

Did Paul boast, "I got a messenger from Satan and youse other fellas don't! " ?
you reaching for bubb;es that pop before you get them ..
-its not a theory ..it what is written . i don't need to make a theory out of what is plainly written .
 
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sculleywr

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you reaching for bubb;es that pop before you get them ..
-its not a theory ..it what is written . i don't need to make a theory out of what is plainly written .
People do that all the time with things. This is my Body comes to mind.
 
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who cares about what the orthodox believe, it doesn't give an ounce of authority that people should believe in. the same can be said if you were a roman catholic spewing your own version of infused righteousness.

what needs to be establish is if it is founded on the teachings of the apostles, and so far your arguments has been lacking in measure.

the interpretation approach used by yourself and the many others is to fix on an idea, and then treat scripture like a garden picking flowers choosing what verses you may fancy on to support those ideas.

as ive said before, the thesis and flow of paul's magnanimous epistle shows that righteousness is 'apart from the law', and by faith alone.

the just (those justified) shall live by faith.

and living by faith supports all the righteous living you and i agree on, but it is NOT the reason one is justified.


Justification isn't transformation, FOR YOU. That's the key. It's only a modern result of the Roman Catholic view of sin.
And yes, a person is forced to do things against their will, or they do not have free will, in which case they are not responsible IN ANY WAY for their sins or good deeds EQUALLY. Here's the thing, salvation for the Orthodox is the relationship. For you, it's just heaven. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with Christ's relationship as the end itself. The relationship with Christ is the means to the end, but it isn't the end that is really important for a person who sees salvation as heaven. For the Orthodox, Heaven is just a means to achieving a relationship with Christ. Everything, marriage, Baptism, Communion, Confession, even praying to the Saints is about ultimately obtaining a relationship with Christ. Think of it, if you want a relationship with someone, who do you ask for information? You talk to their friends and get to know their interests, not just from them, but from their friends and family. When you marry someone, you don't just marry them, you marry the whole family.

We Orthodox do the same. If Salvation is simply a lottery where you only win if you're regenerated in a random or arbitrary manner, then there's no need for Scripture at all. If Salvation is simply a one time decision you make and then it's over with, then there's no point to any Scripture aside from Christ coming to earth, being born, dying, and rising from the dead, and a short message to ask forgiveness for sin and boom, you're in. None of the other Scriptures are necessary in that view either. In Pelagianism, the story of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection are really just garnish, while the real saving parts are in the instructions on holy living. But in Orthodoxy, literally every single part of Scripture has some connection to salvation. All of them. From "in the beginning" to "Described in this scroll", every word of Scripture is intimately connected to our salvation, because they ALL tell us something about Christ. The Cloud of Witnesses is the Saints who have gone before and who walk with us today. We look to them for examples of how to please Christ. We find instructions on how to love Christ in Scripture.

Christ did not answer the question "how do I obtain eternal life" with "just be regenerated" or "just ask me to come into your heart". He said "DO". In one case, his instruction was for a man to give up all his earthly belongings and give the proceeds to the poor. In another, his instruction was "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself". In neither of these cases did He say that the action of obtaining eternal life was entirely in God's hands OR in the hands of the person. It was in both. It was in the relationship. And the only way a relationship can be salvation is through synergism. Relationships are never one-sided affairs. In fact, one-sided relationships are always unhealthy. The relationship between the man who tried to kill the president and the famous actress was completely one-sided. The relationship between an abusive man and a terrified wife is one-sided. A healthy relationship is two ways.
 
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sculleywr

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who cares about what the orthodox believe, it doesn't give an ounce of authority that people should believe in. the same can be said if you were a roman catholic spewing your own version of infused righteousness.

what needs to be establish is if it is founded on the teachings of the apostles, and so far your arguments has been lacking in measure.

the interpretation approach used by yourself and the many others is to fix on an idea, and then treat scripture like a garden picking flowers choosing what verses you may fancy on to support those ideas.

as ive said before, the thesis and flow of paul's magnanimous epistle shows that righteousness is 'apart from the law', and by faith alone.

the just (those justified) shall live by faith.

and living by faith supports all the righteous living you and i agree on, but it is NOT the reason one is justified.


Unless what the Orthodox believed and taught for the last 2000 years without change is the original teaching. See, you seem to think that "living by faith" isn't necessary for salvation, or else isn't comprised of works that are done. But every single time the question "how do I obtain eternal life" is posed to Christ, his answer is works-related. Love God. Love neighbor, give to the poor, feed the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned...

All of these show up in the judgment. So either the judgment is based on those things, as it says in Romans 2, or Christ just whips out all of our deeds, says "this is why you are coming into my heaven", and is completely lying when He says this. Because He literally says this:

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

I don't know what Scripture you are reading, but a plain and straight reading of this is that the King is inviting people into His Kingdom because of these actions, and that is made even more obvious from a plain and straight reading of the next passage regarding the goats:

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

And His answer to them when they asked when they did these things to Christ was not "you did not make a promise" or "you were not elected". It is as follows:

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

The reason the sheep are allowed to inherit the kingdom is because of their actions toward the least among humans. Now I don't know about you, but that sounds like a work to me. And it's not actually something that is written in the law, either. The civil laws in Leviticus give ways for people who are poor to get some kind of living, whether it is picking up the fallen grain from behind the harvesters, or other forms of welfare. But none of them required you to go out of your way to help the poor and needy. That wasn't a work of the law to feed the hungry. It isn't a work of the law to clothe the naked or shelter the homeless. It is a work of love, and more importantly, a work of faith.

See, in a relationship, love isn't shown merely by words, but by actions. If you tell your wife you love her, but never do any chores around the house, never clean up after yourself, never take her out on dates, never get her gifts, never do things to help her out, and never support her in her efforts, then are you really loving her? No!

The same is true about Faith. You can say you believe in God all you want, but you aren't practicing Pistis until you put that belief into action by obeying the commands of Christ. That is the path CHRIST set for salvation. Not some Reformationist more than a thousand years later. There's a reason that OSAS is completely absent from the writings of the early Christians. Look at the prayers they wrote, the doctrine they lived. And it is completely certain from their writings that Synergism was how they saw salvation.
 
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Buggins

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Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22
Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.


In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?
That's a very good question and personally I can only give a qualified answer which is; "If you were truly saved you cannot lose your salvation, but for whatever reason you can wander away from God into the spiritual wilderness."
Whether like the prodigal son you will eventually come to your senses and return is (I think) in the final analysis your decision.
Let's first think about your experience of salvation. Was it all your doing or was God the Holy Spirit working on your spirit to draw you towards repentance? Was He acting arbitrarily or was it that Christians had been witnessing to you and folk had been praying for you?
We know from Scripture that God desires that all should come to repentance, but somewhere in there we as individuals have to respond.. Once God the Holy Spirit has truly convicted you of sin and your need for repentance, are you seriously going to turn away?
I don't think so.
I didn't.
But I did have a 20 year stretch when something traumatic happened in my life and I couldn't get any answers. So in the end I stopped asking for them..
By the grace of God I lived long enough to repent and return to the Rock of my Salvation, and He restored our fellowship, and I learnt a lot along the way..
So I think that if you truly received salvation God will do everything in His power to keep you. Someone once said it's kind of like when you're in close fellowship with the Lord He has you in the palm of His hand. But if for whatever reason you get out of His palm, His hand then turns to protectively cover you wherever you may wander, and He will do all He can to get you back into the safety of the palm of His hand..
Of course He cannot force you, but if in your heart you truly loved Him and worshipped Him as Almighty God, why would you ultimately turn away?
 
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Wordkeeper

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you reaching for bubb;es that pop before you get them ..
-its not a theory ..it what is written . i don't need to make a theory out of what is plainly written .

To Paul there were two ways of doing ministry. One by presenting perfect qualification like Moses and the super Apostles of the Corinthians church, and building a church filled with stunted, thumb sucking infants, because bread, God's nourishment, is not manifested when pride is present.

Look at how Moses views his status:

Numbers 20:9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him; 10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall WE bring forth water for you out of this rock?”

The other was to be like Jesus, boasting not of his perfect credentials, but of his inadequacies, confessing his total dependence on God.

John 5:19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Paul was uneasy about his past record of persecuting the church. There was no precedent of anybody attacking God's people and later being authorised to be His messenger. In the beginning he felt it was a stumbling block. Then he understood it was an advantage:

2 Corinthians 12
7-10 Because of the extravagance of those revelations, and so I wouldn’t get a big head, I was given the gift of a handicap to keep me in constant touch with my limitations. Satan’s angel did his best to get me down; what he in fact did was push me to my knees. No danger then of walking around high and mighty! At first I didn’t think of it as a gift, and begged God to remove it. Three times I did that, and then he told me,

My grace is enough; it’s all you need.
My strength comes into its own in your weakness.

However his meekness was being misunderstood by the Corinthians. They even thought his decision not to burden them with his expenses was a con:

16-18 And why is it that I keep coming across these whiffs of gossip about how my self-support was a front behind which I worked an elaborate scam? Where’s the evidence? Did I cheat or trick you through anyone I sent? I asked Titus to visit, and sent some brothers along. Did they swindle you out of anything? And haven’t we always been just as aboveboard, just as honest?

Now he had a hard decision to make.

Continue to be meek or to assert his status as a full Apostle.

A. Being meek results in power of Christ being manifest.

B. Asserting his qualification to be an Apostle results in no power of Christ being manifest, and being humiliated by God by not being chosen to lead the people into rest:

20-21 I do admit that I have fears that when I come you’ll disappoint me and I’ll disappoint you, and in frustration with each other everything will fall to pieces—quarrels, jealousy, flaring tempers, taking sides, angry words, vicious rumors, swelled heads, and general bedlam. I don’t look forward to a second humiliation by God among you, compounded by hot tears over that crowd that keeps sinning over and over in the same old ways, who refuse to turn away from the pigsty of evil, sexual disorder, and indecency in which they wallow.

But the people leave him no choice.

He chooses the foolishness in the sight of God over the foolishness in the sight of the world:

2 Corinthians 11
21-23 Since you admire the egomaniacs of the pulpit so much (remember, this is your old friend, the fool, talking), let me try my hand at it. Do they brag of being Hebrews, Israelites, the pure race of Abraham? I’m their match. Are they servants of Christ? I can go them one better. (I can’t believe I’m saying these things. It’s crazy to talk this way! But I started, and I’m going to finish.)

23-27 I’ve worked much harder, been jailed more often, beaten up more times than I can count, and at death’s door time after time. I’ve been flogged five times with the Jews’ thirty-nine lashes, beaten by Roman rods three times, pummeled with rocks once. I’ve been shipwrecked three times, and immersed in the open sea for a night and a day. In hard traveling year in and year out, I’ve had to ford rivers, fend off robbers, struggle with friends, struggle with foes. I’ve been at risk in the city, at risk in the country, endangered by desert sun and sea storm, and betrayed by those I thought were my brothers. I’ve known drudgery and hard labor, many a long and lonely night without sleep, many a missed meal, blasted by the cold, naked to the weather.

28-29 And that’s not the half of it, when you throw in the daily pressures and anxieties of all the churches. When someone gets to the end of his rope, I feel the desperation in my bones. When someone is duped into sin, an angry fire burns in my gut.


Everything fits so perfectly! If I ever get the equivalent of a theological Pulitzer prize, I'll share it with you.

Lord knows we aren't qualified in the eyes of the world to propose such a theory along with such strong proof. Which strangely qualifies us in the eyes of God to do so...
 
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To Paul there were two ways of doing ministry. One by presenting perfect qualification like Moses and the super Apostles of the Corinthians church, and building a church filled with stunted, thumb sucking infants, because bread, God's nourishment, is not manifested when pride is present.

Look at how Moses views his status:

Numbers 20:9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him; 10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall WE bring forth water for you out of this rock?”

The other was to be like Jesus, boasting not of his perfect credentials, but of his inadequacies, confessing his total dependence on God.

John 5:19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Paul was uneasy about his past record of persecuting the church. There was no precedent of anybody attacking God's people and later being authorised to be His messenger. In the beginning he felt it was a stumbling block. Then he understood it was an advantage:

2 Corinthians 12
7-10 Because of the extravagance of those revelations, and so I wouldn’t get a big head, I was given the gift of a handicap to keep me in constant touch with my limitations. Satan’s angel did his best to get me down; what he in fact did was push me to my knees. No danger then of walking around high and mighty! At first I didn’t think of it as a gift, and begged God to remove it. Three times I did that, and then he told me,

My grace is enough; it’s all you need.
My strength comes into its own in your weakness.

However his meekness was being misunderstood by the Corinthians. They even thought his decision not to burden them with his expenses was a con:

16-18 And why is it that I keep coming across these whiffs of gossip about how my self-support was a front behind which I worked an elaborate scam? Where’s the evidence? Did I cheat or trick you through anyone I sent? I asked Titus to visit, and sent some brothers along. Did they swindle you out of anything? And haven’t we always been just as aboveboard, just as honest?

Now he had a hard decision to make.

Continue to be meek or to assert his status as a full Apostle.

A. Being meek results in power of Christ being manifest.

B. Asserting his qualification to be an Apostle results in no power of Christ being manifest, and being humiliated by God by not being chosen to lead the people into rest:

20-21 I do admit that I have fears that when I come you’ll disappoint me and I’ll disappoint you, and in frustration with each other everything will fall to pieces—quarrels, jealousy, flaring tempers, taking sides, angry words, vicious rumors, swelled heads, and general bedlam. I don’t look forward to a second humiliation by God among you, compounded by hot tears over that crowd that keeps sinning over and over in the same old ways, who refuse to turn away from the pigsty of evil, sexual disorder, and indecency in which they wallow.

But the people leave him no choice.

He chooses the foolishness in the sight of God over the foolishness in the sight of the world:

2 Corinthians 11
21-23 Since you admire the egomaniacs of the pulpit so much (remember, this is your old friend, the fool, talking), let me try my hand at it. Do they brag of being Hebrews, Israelites, the pure race of Abraham? I’m their match. Are they servants of Christ? I can go them one better. (I can’t believe I’m saying these things. It’s crazy to talk this way! But I started, and I’m going to finish.)

23-27 I’ve worked much harder, been jailed more often, beaten up more times than I can count, and at death’s door time after time. I’ve been flogged five times with the Jews’ thirty-nine lashes, beaten by Roman rods three times, pummeled with rocks once. I’ve been shipwrecked three times, and immersed in the open sea for a night and a day. In hard traveling year in and year out, I’ve had to ford rivers, fend off robbers, struggle with friends, struggle with foes. I’ve been at risk in the city, at risk in the country, endangered by desert sun and sea storm, and betrayed by those I thought were my brothers. I’ve known drudgery and hard labor, many a long and lonely night without sleep, many a missed meal, blasted by the cold, naked to the weather.

28-29 And that’s not the half of it, when you throw in the daily pressures and anxieties of all the churches. When someone gets to the end of his rope, I feel the desperation in my bones. When someone is duped into sin, an angry fire burns in my gut.


Everything fits so perfectly! If I ever get the equivalent of a theological Pulitzer prize, I'll share it with you.

Lord knows we aren't qualified in the eyes of the world to propose such a theory along with such strong proof. Which strangely qualifies us in the eyes of God to do so...
-its not a theory ..it what is written . i don't need to make a theory out of what is plainly written . -end
 
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Geralt

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2000 years ? total delusion.
council of orange canons in ad529 is even against your position.

see you are still trying to forced the issue/accusation of antinomianism.
that is of course predictable, the reason Paul wrote Romans 6.

'living by faith' is the inevitable result of a change life, sanctification. we do not discount the fact.

however it is NOT what justifies the believer as righteous before God, nor declares him to be saved. (Eph 2:8)

it is by faith in Christ alone. it is 'apart from obedience or works of the law'.

and this faith results in gifts and fruits, living righteously, imitators of Him.

Unless what the Orthodox believed and taught for the last 2000 years without change is the original teaching. See, you seem to think that "living by faith" isn't necessary for salvation, or else isn't comprised of works that are done. But every single time the question "how do I obtain eternal life" is posed to Christ, his answer is works-related. Love God. Love neighbor, give to the poor, feed the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned...

All of these show up in the judgment. So either the judgment is based on those things, as it says in Romans 2, or Christ just whips out all of our deeds, says "this is why you are coming into my heaven", and is completely lying when He says this. Because He literally says this:

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

I don't know what Scripture you are reading, but a plain and straight reading of this is that the King is inviting people into His Kingdom because of these actions, and that is made even more obvious from a plain and straight reading of the next passage regarding the goats:

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

And His answer to them when they asked when they did these things to Christ was not "you did not make a promise" or "you were not elected". It is as follows:

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

The reason the sheep are allowed to inherit the kingdom is because of their actions toward the least among humans. Now I don't know about you, but that sounds like a work to me. And it's not actually something that is written in the law, either. The civil laws in Leviticus give ways for people who are poor to get some kind of living, whether it is picking up the fallen grain from behind the harvesters, or other forms of welfare. But none of them required you to go out of your way to help the poor and needy. That wasn't a work of the law to feed the hungry. It isn't a work of the law to clothe the naked or shelter the homeless. It is a work of love, and more importantly, a work of faith.

See, in a relationship, love isn't shown merely by words, but by actions. If you tell your wife you love her, but never do any chores around the house, never clean up after yourself, never take her out on dates, never get her gifts, never do things to help her out, and never support her in her efforts, then are you really loving her? No!

The same is true about Faith. You can say you believe in God all you want, but you aren't practicing Pistis until you put that belief into action by obeying the commands of Christ. That is the path CHRIST set for salvation. Not some Reformationist more than a thousand years later. There's a reason that OSAS is completely absent from the writings of the early Christians. Look at the prayers they wrote, the doctrine they lived. And it is completely certain from their writings that Synergism was how they saw salvation.
 
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-its not a theory ..it what is written . i don't need to make a theory out of what is plainly written . -end

Your theory:

When Paul boasted he boasted that he had a messenger of satan. It's impossible for a person to boast in that way and still have the power of Christ manifest in his ministry.

My theory :

When Paul bosted he boasted that he was not the person who was the source of revelations and miracles that manifested in His ministry.

He said that this confession, along with his meekness, and refusal to take payment for preaching was being mistaken for falsehood and cheating, so he was forced to reveal his equality with other Apostles, although it meant that his ministry would be compromised:

2 Corinthians 11
17What I am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

He had always confessed before it was God who was the source of his ministry, but now, like Moses he had stopped giving glory to God.

2 Corinthians 13
2I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone, 3since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.

For that reason, even though his reputation would be cleared, God would humiliate him by not letting him be the one who led the people into rest:

2 Corinthians 12
21I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.
 
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2000 years ? total delusion.
council of orange canons in ad529 is even against your position.

see you are still trying to forced the issue/accusation of antinomianism.
that is of course predictable, the reason Paul wrote Romans 6.

'living by faith' is the inevitable result of a change life, sanctification. we do not discount the fact.

however it is NOT what justifies the believer as righteous before God, nor declares him to be saved. (Eph 2:8)

it is by faith in Christ alone. it is 'apart from obedience or works of the law'.

and this faith results in gifts and fruits, living righteously, imitators of Him.


Romans 4
14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Imputed righteousness was required because of the wrong doctrine of original sin.


But the Orthodox Church teaches rightly that men are not born unrighteous. Elizabeth and Zacharias were said to be righteous.

Adam brought sin into the world because he brought in law. Having the knowledge of good and evil prematurely is like a minor becoming an adult and therfore coming under the juriddiction of the Penal Code.

No law no sin.

If you claim to be an adult, have knowledge of good and evil, you become culpable.

Fall under the purview of law.
 
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"no law, no sin" ? crazy
"Adam brought sin into the world because he brought in law" ? ridiculous

the presence of the law is not sin, it is breaking the law.
adam did not brought the law, God did. God said " you shall not eat..", and Adam was NOT sinful yet. It is when he disobeyed.

you should start re-reading Genesis 1-3 with fresh new eyes, or study Romans 5.

"Elizabeth and Zacharias were said to be righteous."- and yet they died. why? do you think.

even the people living before the law was given to moses - they all still died even if they were outside the law. why? do you think.

because sin is not just about disobeying the law personally, it is all humankind's sin represented by Adam's in his sin.

and thus ALL SINNED, because of ADAM.
and thus ALL DIED because ALL SINNED even before the law was given in their generation.

this means ADAM's sin is IMPUTED TO US which doomed all mankind (existing or to be born later)

and by the same token
Christ's righteousness is IMPUTED TO US which saves all those who put their trust in him by faith.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Romans 4
14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Imputed righteousness was required because of the wrong doctrine of original sin.

But the Orthodox Church teaches rightly that men are not born unrighteous. Elizabeth and Zacharias were said to be righteous.

Adam brought sin into the world because he brought in law. Having the knowledge of good and evil prematurely is like a minor becoming an adult and therfore coming under the juriddiction of the Penal Code.

No law no sin.

If you claim to be an adult, have knowledge of good and evil, you become culpable.

Fall under the purview of law.
 
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