Once Saved, Always Saved?

Do you agree with OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

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Johnas

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I find this quite curious. If that is so, why have the sacrifices, especially the Day of Atonement?
For me, a Hebrew, it always AMAZES me that when some touch a stove, feel the burn, nurse a wound, and then live with a scar, pretend like it NEVER HAPPENED! I can see the scar! Why do you pretend that you didn't touch the stove??? It is what makes us kin! I HAVE THE SAME SCAR! So lets talk about it. Lets relate. lets talk about our foolery, our shortcomings, our sin. Lets just be iron about the truth about OURSELVES, so that we can sharpen each others iron.
 
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bbbbbbb

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For me, a Hebrew, it always AMAZES me that when some touch a stove, feel the burn, nurse a wound, and then live with a scar, pretend like it NEVER HAPPENED! I can see the scar! Why do you pretend that you didn't touch the stove??? It is what makes us kin! I HAVE THE SAME SCAR! So lets talk about it. Lets relate. lets talk about our foolery, our shortcomings, our sin. Lets just be iron about the truth about OURSELVES, so that we can sharpen each others iron.

I agree. Thank you for your kind reply.

Yesterday we had a very lively discussion here. The question was are we, as believers, saved sinners or righteous, by grace? Of course, we are both, I said, but some said if we see ourselves as sinners then our growth as believers is stunted. Others said that if we see ourselves as righteous, then we will become proud and self-confident. What do you think?
 
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Johnas

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I agree. Thank you for your kind reply.

Yesterday we had a very lively discussion here. The question was are we, as believers, saved sinners or righteous, by grace? Of course, we are both, I said, but some said if we see ourselves as sinners then our growth as believers is stunted. Others said that if we see ourselves as righteous, then we will become proud and self-confident. What do you think?
Many hear me as speaking in "code". But, a few get what the Lord has given me to give... So here it goes: Through my life, I have been rejected in the synagogues because I bring the truth about grace (As a Hebrew that believes in the Christ). But know that I am rejected in the churches because I bring the truth about the law (As a Hebrew that believes in the Christ). PRIDE has ALWAYS been, and always will be the killer of the soul, and of eternal salvation. That said, if you agree, find me just ONE argument where both sides ARE NOT in pride. Find me one.
 
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Many hear me as speaking in "code". But, a few get what the Lord has given me to give... So here it goes: Through my life, I have been rejected in the synagogues because I bring the truth about grace (As a Hebrew that believes in the Christ). But know that I am rejected in the churches because I bring the truth about the law (As a Hebrew that believes in the Christ). PRIDE has ALWAYS been, and always will be the killer of the soul, and of eternal salvation. That said, if you agree, find me just ONE argument where both sides ARE NOT in pride. Find me one.
And what is the truth of the law?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Many hear me as speaking in "code". But, a few get what the Lord has given me to give... So here it goes: Through my life, I have been rejected in the synagogues because I bring the truth about grace (As a Hebrew that believes in the Christ). But know that I am rejected in the churches because I bring the truth about the law (As a Hebrew that believes in the Christ). PRIDE has ALWAYS been, and always will be the killer of the soul, and of eternal salvation. That said, if you agree, find me just ONE argument where both sides ARE NOT in pride. Find me one.

Yes, pride is the great enemy of the soul and most arguments are entirely based on pride. I cannot think of any argument that is not based on pride. At the end of the discussion yesterday I was happy when both sides saw the truth of the other side and admitted that they were now in agreement. Blessed are the peacemakers.
 
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Alithis

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I agree. Thank you for your kind reply.

Yesterday we had a very lively discussion here. The question was are we, as believers, saved sinners or righteous, by grace? Of course, we are both, I said, but some said if we see ourselves as sinners then our growth as believers is stunted. Others said that if we see ourselves as righteous, then we will become proud and self-confident. What do you think?
neither ,, we are new creatures in Christ ..we are made the righteousness of God in christ Jesus .. that is very humbling .
 
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sculleywr

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Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22
Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.


In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?
These verses, among many others, such as the justification by works, and not by faith alone, in James 2, are major issues for people who think that salvation is a simple fire insurance and forgiveness of sins, alone.

For those who believe that salvation is transformation into the image of God, "becoming by grace what Christ is by nature," the concept that one can leave the path of salvation is only sensible. Forgiveness is, of course, free, for there is nothing one can do to earn forgiveness. But sanctification, justification, and glorification are part of the ongoing process of salvation, too, just as much as forgiveness. If forgiveness were all that was necessary for us to come to salvation, then the crucifixion would have been unnecessary, for God could simply choose to forgive us. But if salvation is becoming transformed into the image of Christ, then Christ had to experience everything we experience in life, including death. Only by assuming our nature could He redeem our nature to transform it. Whatever was not assumed could not be redeemed.
 
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Geralt

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Not entirely correct. Jesus is God's righteousness NOT us. We are made righteous by faith in Christ who exhibited perfect righteousness.

neither ,, we are new creatures in Christ ..we are made the righteousness of God in christ Jesus .. that is very humbling .
 
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Geralt

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Salvation is not just about forgiveness but also about righteousness. The reason why orthodox, rcc and a host of contra-osas factions believe in a different gospel can be found in their denial of christ's righteousness imputed to the believer presented by Paul in Romans 3-8. Really that's all there is to it.

These verses, among many others, such as the justification by works, and not by faith alone, in James 2, are major issues for people who think that salvation is a simple fire insurance and forgiveness of sins, alone.

For those who believe that salvation is transformation into the image of God, "becoming by grace what Christ is by nature," the concept that one can leave the path of salvation is only sensible. Forgiveness is, of course, free, for there is nothing one can do to earn forgiveness. But sanctification, justification, and glorification are part of the ongoing process of salvation, too, just as much as forgiveness. If forgiveness were all that was necessary for us to come to salvation, then the crucifixion would have been unnecessary, for God could simply choose to forgive us. But if salvation is becoming transformed into the image of Christ, then Christ had to experience everything we experience in life, including death. Only by assuming our nature could He redeem our nature to transform it. Whatever was not assumed could not be redeemed.
 
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IKtmRL

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Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"
In Phil 2:13 is the "fear and trembling" to do with losing ones salvation? No I dont belive it is because it says next that it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose", and taking this with Jesus promise that it is the Father's will that none he saves will later be lost (John 6:39). The fear could be referring to suffering loss of reward not loss of salvation (1 Cor 3:12) or it could be meant as holy fear or awe of God. Also see Ephesians 1:13-14 (the guarantee!) for another verse confirming eternal security of salvation. Also Jesus said if the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed (John 8:36) and not be in constant fear of losing our salvation or working to keep it rather than rest in it. We work to please God as a thank offering (Psalm 116:17) since we only are acceptable to make such an offering in and through Jesus Our Righteousness (Jeremiah 23:5-6) in the first place. However, we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith in the first place (i.e. born again to start with) (2 Cor 13:5-6). We did not earn our salvation by merit so we cannot lose it by demerit. We may be faithless but He is faithful (Praise God) and I believe a born-again believer cannot disown Jesus their Saviour and Lord (2 Timothy 2:11-13).
 
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Albion

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Geralt,

That indeed is a fair way of putting it. First, it's denied that Faith (in Christ) can save without us also earning it, and, second, it's taught that even those who have earned salvation (according to the theory) will be punished in the afterlife for sins committed before they were forgiven.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Salvation is not just about forgiveness but also about righteousness. The reason why orthodox, rcc and a host of contra-osas factions believe in a different gospel can be found in their denial of christ's righteousness imputed to the believer presented by Paul in Romans 3-8. Really that's all there is to it.


I'm surprised that most objections to Wright hang on his ignoring imputation of righteousness.

Wright objects to imputation: in a court of law, you can't transfer the judge's innocence to the accused.

However, if you show loyalty and dependence on God, He would justify (adopt you as a family member) you and then work out a deal with the prosecutor, at a price.

That fits nicely. Abraham showed loyalty and need for God and God gave him the label (reputation, identity) of family member.

Witherington explains that Erasmus used the Vulgate, where Abe's belief was reputatum (reckoned) to him as eligiblty for adoption ("righteousness" just confuses the issue: Abe was still a sinner, as David noted, "Happy is a man whom the Lord counts not his transgressions against him"). Reckoned is an accounting term, such as when the bank considers a payment as a credit, reckoned as a credit. Actual physical cash (label of adoption, not innocence) is available

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Witherington explains that Erasmus used the Vulgate, where Abe's belief was reputatum (reckoned) to him as eligiblty for adoption ("righteousness" just confuses the issue: Abe was still a sinner, as David noted, "Happy is a man whom the Lord counts not his transgressions against him"). Reckoned is an accounting term, such as when the bank considers a payment as a credit, reckoned as a credit. Actual physical cash (label of adoption, not innocence) is available by transference.

Unfortunately, Erasmus used the word imputatum, which means inference, when an accused's successful defence against prosecution is considered as innocence. The defence's successful presentation of innocence is inferred to the accused. The success of the defence is borrowed by the accused. OJ comes to mind.
Clip
 
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sculleywr

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Salvation is not just about forgiveness but also about righteousness. The reason why orthodox, rcc and a host of contra-osas factions believe in a different gospel can be found in their denial of christ's righteousness imputed to the believer presented by Paul in Romans 3-8. Really that's all there is to it.
The problem with saying it is "imputed" is the idea that only the REPUTATION of righteousness is given to a person, and not any REAL RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is what it means to impute something. Instead of changing the person to be really righteous, in the Baptist and other Protestant world, God only gives the reputation of righteousness. That's also a problem because the word "impute" doesn't even have a corrolary with any of the Greek words used in Romans, much less the portions you cited. So yes, all salvation is, functionally speaking, is forgiveness. It ends at forgiveness.

In Orthodox soteriology, salvation is being transformed into righteousness. As I said earlier, "becoming by grace what Christ is by nature" (quoting Athanasius). In Romans 3-8, a Christian isn't simply given the reputation of righteousness, but is given the ability to be REALLY RIGHTEOUS. This transformation takes time. It cannot happen in one day, but over a lifetime of obedience. Those people who make dying confessions are the exception, rather than the rule.
 
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sculleywr

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Geralt,

That indeed is a fair way of putting it. First, it's denied that Faith (in Christ) can save without us also earning it, and, second, it's taught that even those who have earned salvation (according to the theory) will be punished in the afterlife for sins committed before they were forgiven.

It's denied because faith alone cannot justify, and justification is part of salvation. We know from James that justification is by works, and not by faith alone. It's simply there. Sure, if salvation is just forgiveness, it cannot be earned.

However, purgatory is not found anywhere in Orthodox soteriology and isn't part of the theory of soteriology we have. Salvation isn't something earned. It is something done to us, but it is something we must continually accept. If we shut the door on salvation, then it will not blast the door off its hinges. God will never save a man against his will, regardless of the man's past desires.
 
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pescador

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It's denied because faith alone cannot justify, and justification is part of salvation. We know from James that justification is by works, and not by faith alone. It's simply there. Sure, if salvation is just forgiveness, it cannot be earned.

However, purgatory is not found anywhere in Orthodox soteriology and isn't part of the theory of soteriology we have. Salvation isn't something earned. It is something done to us, but it is something we must continually accept. If we shut the door on salvation, then it will not blast the door off its hinges. God will never save a man against his will, regardless of the man's past desires.

James' supposed justification by works comes up often and it's always wrong. Justification is by faith, not works! What James wrote is that works are evidence of the faith that you have. If you're not inspired by faith to do good works, i.e., have an active faith, then you're faith isn't worth much. That by no means implies that those works save you. They don't.
 
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sculleywr

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James' supposed justification by works comes up often and it's always wrong. Justification is by faith, not works! What James wrote is that works are evidence of the faith that you have. If you're not inspired by faith to do good works, i.e., have an active faith, then you're faith isn't worth much. That by no means implies that those works save you. They don't.
So his thesis question, the one that sets the theme of the entire passage, means nothing. Good to know that when James asks "can faith alone save", he doesn't actually intend to answer the question according to the flat meaning of the words he says. Faith without works is dead and cannot save. Plain meaning of the words. And it doesn't contradict Paul because Paul was talking of works of the law, not all works.
 
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VanillaSunflowers

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VanillaSunflowers

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Christ had to come because his people, my people, the Hebrews, ALSO believed in "Eternal Security". It was for this belief, that many of them became the kind of people they were: Self righteous, judgmental, unloving, unforgiving, merciless, gossiping, self interested... SO argue all you want over what you think scripture is saying, but know that those of us that have been given to see your fruits, know your arguments are in vein.
Yes, well, you don't know a thing about the Hebrews or you'd never make such an opening remark. Therefore all of your observation really says nothing that pertains to this thread topic.
 
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