My Coelacanth Challenge

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Gene2memE

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Coelacanth is an entire order of fish that was thought to be extinct. It was only known from the fossil record, which indicated it became extinct at the end of the Cretaceous period, which ended about 66 million years ago.

A dead example was found in 1938, taxidermied and displayed. Living examples were discovered in the very early 1950s and it was photographed in the wild in the late 1980s.

Coelacanth comprises two (possibly three) extant species. One lives in the waters off southern South Africa and parts of the coast of East Africa, near Tanzania and the Comoros. The other lives in the waters around Sulawesi and Borneo, in Indonesia.

Coelacanth is not, as originally postulated, a 'living fossil'. It is definitively evolving. The African and Indonesian extant species split about 30 to 40 million years ago, according to a 2005 study. There is also a 2011 study that indicates that the South African and Tanzania/Comoros populations are different species as well, and split as little as 200,000 years ago.

The Coelacanth order traces its evolutionary lineage back about 390 million years, to the period when there was a divergence between itself and that of lung fish and tetrapods. Genetically, its more closely related to lungfish and reptiles than it is to Actinopterygii - what we'd consider modern fish.

As to whether its a Lazurus taxon - yes, it is. It disappeared from the fossil record and reappeared (both as live specimens and in the fossil record).
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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The Coelacanth is just one of many "living fossisl" that indicate the earth is young and not old.

Not really since the modern coelacanth is very different to the fossils of ancient coelacanths. Just like how crocodiles today are called living fossils but are very different to ancient crocodiles.
 
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-57

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Not really since the modern coelacanth is very different to the fossils of ancient coelacanths. Just like how crocodiles today are called living fossils but are very different to ancient crocodiles.

Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record. You must be referring to a species of the coelacanths that is different from the ones found fossilized.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record. You must be referring to a species of the coelacanths that is different from the ones found fossilized.

Modern coelacanths are made up of two subspecies of coelacanth, the West Indian Ocean coelacanth or African coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) and the Indonesian coelacanth (Latimeria menadoensis). These fish are the only living examples of the ancient family of fish known as the Coelacanthiformes.
 
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-57

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Modern coelacanths are made up of two subspecies of coelacanth, the West Indian Ocean coelacanth or African coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) and the Indonesian coelacanth (Latimeria menadoensis). These fish are the only living examples of the ancient family of fish known as the Coelacanthiformes.

Hmmmm, 340 MY's for change to occur...

According to the old earth uniformitarian theory the whole world was upset in an iridium nightmare when a big time major world wide ecological “niche” changing event happened after a meteorite slammed into the earth, ...but, some how, species such as the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs apparently weren't effected at all by the catastrophic event.

Despite this catastrophic event it is amazing that the evolutionist still claim that these living fossils conformed to their very own particular ecological niche. Some how they were able to pass through this world wide niche changing catastrophic event at the K/T boundary. It was at this time, 65 million years ago, that the evolutionist claim that 75% or so of all species from a wide range of taxonomic groupings on the land, in the skies and under the seas were wiped out forever.

It’s interesting to note that each of the above mentioned living fossils are claimed to have pre-dated this catastrophic event by tens of million years with virtually no change prior to or after the catastrophic event.

Coelacanth.........340 million years old

Tuatara.........200 million years old

Ginko tree.........125 million years old

Wollemi Pine.........150 million years old

Crocodiles.........140 million years old

Horseshoe crab.........200 million years old



Certainly after an event such as the supposed mass extinction mentioned above, the changed environment, disappearing food chains on land and in the seas, tsunamis crashing into continents, fire scorched landscapes, sun blocked “winters” and their temperature changes would have caused the tempo of evolution to increase all over the surface of the globe, in the air and under the seas. This increased evolutionary tempo would have allowed for the selection of new beneficial mutations while scrambling to create new dramatically varied species that thrived in the new environmental biomes created on the land, in the air and under the seas.

To perplex the issue even more, besides the mutational/natural selective changes mentioned above that should have occurred during the last 65 million years there is yet another mechanism that the evolutionist claim introduces major morphological changes into animals. This mechanism is Genetic Drift. Apparently in the last 65 + million years this process also produced no significant change where according to their theories a considerable change should have occurred to the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs as their niches were upset.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Hmmmm, 340 MY's for change to occur...

According to the old earth uniformitarian theory the whole world was upset in an iridium nightmare when a big time major world wide ecological “niche” changing event happened after a meteorite slammed into the earth, ...but, some how, species such as the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs apparently weren't effected at all by the catastrophic event.

Despite this catastrophic event it is amazing that the evolutionist still claim that these living fossils conformed to their very own particular ecological niche. Some how they were able to pass through this world wide niche changing catastrophic event at the K/T boundary. It was at this time, 65 million years ago, that the evolutionist claim that 75% or so of all species from a wide range of taxonomic groupings on the land, in the skies and under the seas were wiped out forever.

It’s interesting to note that each of the above mentioned living fossils are claimed to have pre-dated this catastrophic event by tens of million years with virtually no change prior to or after the catastrophic event.

Coelacanth.........340 million years old

Tuatara.........200 million years old

Ginko tree.........125 million years old

Wollemi Pine.........150 million years old

Crocodiles.........140 million years old

Horseshoe crab.........200 million years old



Certainly after an event such as the supposed mass extinction mentioned above, the changed environment, disappearing food chains on land and in the seas, tsunamis crashing into continents, fire scorched landscapes, sun blocked “winters” and their temperature changes would have caused the tempo of evolution to increase all over the surface of the globe, in the air and under the seas. This increased evolutionary tempo would have allowed for the selection of new beneficial mutations while scrambling to create new dramatically varied species that thrived in the new environmental biomes created on the land, in the air and under the seas.

To perplex the issue even more, besides the mutational/natural selective changes mentioned above that should have occurred during the last 65 million years there is yet another mechanism that the evolutionist claim introduces major morphological changes into animals. This mechanism is Genetic Drift. Apparently in the last 65 + million years this process also produced no significant change where according to their theories a considerable change should have occurred to the Coelacanth, Tuatara, Ginko tree, Wollemi Pine, Crocodiles and Horseshoe crabs as their niches were upset.

Just say that you don't accept anything that will be shown to you with regards to coelacanth. It's been made abundantly clear in other threads that you have no desire to learn or engage in actual scientific discussion.
 
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David_M

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Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record. You must be referring to a species of the coelacanths that is different from the ones found fossilized.

Wrong, in fact completely wrong. The extant species of coelacanth are definitely not the same as those known from the fossil record.
 
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Kylie

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Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record. You must be referring to a species of the coelacanths that is different from the ones found fossilized.

Citation needed.

Please provide a scientific source that claims that the species of living coelocanth is the SAME SPECIES that is found in the fossil record.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Are you suggesting there is only one species of coelacanth?

I actually gave information about this in post #9:
"Modern coelacanths are made up of two subspecies of coelacanth, the West Indian Ocean coelacanth or African coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) and the Indonesian coelacanth (Latimeria menadoensis). These fish are the only living examples of the ancient family of fish known as the Coelacanthiformes."
 
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Kylie

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Are you suggesting there is only one species of coelacanth?

No, I am suggesting that the species of coelocanth that are found in the fossil record are all different species to the ones we find alive today.

Different species means that they have evolved, in contradiction to the claim you made in post 8, where you said: "Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record."
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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"Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record" only in the sense that they're members of the same order. That's an incredibly broad grouping of living things, and saying that they're the same is equivalent to saying that there's no difference between a Sweet Potato (an edible, widely cultivated tuber that grows from a Morning Glory vine) and Jimson Weed (an incredibly poisonous flowering plant that will make you hallucinate skinless tigers chasing you if you eat it).
 
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Jimmy D

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"Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record" only in the sense that they're members of the same order. That's an incredibly broad grouping of living things, and saying that they're the same is equivalent to saying that there's no difference between a Sweet Potato (an edible, widely cultivated tuber that grows from a Morning Glory vine) and Jimson Weed (an incredibly poisonous flowering plant that will make you hallucinate skinless tigers chasing you if you eat it).

What do you expect of someone who's idea of scientific research is looking at AIG and ICR etc?
 
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-57

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No, I am suggesting that the species of coelocanth that are found in the fossil record are all different species to the ones we find alive today.

Different species means that they have evolved, in contradiction to the claim you made in post 8, where you said: "Modern coelacanths are the same as the coelacanths found in the fossil record."

Speciation is what I consider as horizontal evolution and not vertical....Micro-evolution rather than Macro-evolutionism. Technically you may call speciation as "macro"...but there really isn't any vertical evolution where there are new traits established that have evolved as new systems, organs, appendages etc.....which should have happened according to evo-theory if they are indeed that old.
 
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