Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

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Just_a_Joe

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I don't know that this is the case. If religious experience were all about learning certain ideas, then it would be enough to simply study them out of a book with no direct experience of their application or 'what they mean' (in a broad sense). I can name the five pillars of Islam, but that is not the same as going to a mosque. It seems pretty fundamental that learning about something and experiencing that thing are not the same.

And simply knowing or learning about ideas says nothing about their truth either way, so the bit about things being true for you and false for others cannot be dependent upon the degree to which the person judging them knows about them. Certainly there are many atheists who have studied the Bible, the Qur'an, the Torah, etc. and still remain atheists, and likewise many Christians, Muslims, and Jews who probably don't know their scriptures as well as they'd like to think they do and yet remain convinced that they are true.

It's a problem of epistemology that is not solved by the accumulation of knowledge. If you ever want to make the claim that anything is true, eventually you have to put the books down and pick a street, whether that means rejecting all of them, or all but one, or whatever. And that still likely won't say anything about their truth so much as what you are personally persuaded by. But are things 'true' or 'false' because we think they are? Not if we're talking about objective truth.

This is why I think it is better to say that there is no objective truth behind religion(s) -- at least not objective in the sense of being something that everyone can agree on, like water being wet (I don't think objective actually means 'universally agreed upon', but that's another discussion). There is only the lived experience of given communities that testify to what they have believed based on those experiences for X number of years/centuries. Religion is experiential in this way, not based on a secular idea of objective truth. The claims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah, or that Muhammad is the messenger of God, or that God chose Israel as His people are some of the least objective things I can imagine. Hence the atheist or agnostic who cannot believe in anything unless they are shown objective proof of its veracity will continue to not believe in religion, while the religious person is wise to not wait around for such proof that they should know will never materialize. It is only because of the pervasiveness of the modern secular mindset in today's world that objective proof is prized as being more valuable or trustworthy than experience, though, and since religious people by definition don't share that mindset (though plenty have been influenced by it; cf. the modern atheist who nevertheless lives in a formerly religious society will nonetheless often show some interest in religion as a sociological object...hence threads like this one), that doesn't really come into play for the people you are trying to talk to/about.

Hence we will forever talk past each other because to each of us the people on the other side don't know what truth is (you think it's objective facts like water being wet while the religious think it is shared and mutually confirmed experiences), so talking about what is true and what is false and why is ultimately useless.

Thank you. Great post. Learning is in no way the only and sufficient prerequisite for an experience. There is of course a lot more to it. But learning is the necessary first step.

Absolute objective truth? There is no such thing to us in practice, I agree. I didn't go as far as try and figure out the objective truth - a claim too high for a human.

My context was modest, within this topic. The discussion started from my suggestion that it is not good to indoctrinate children in anything because there are alternative ideologies, which are equally deserving of knowing and considering.
 
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Just_a_Joe

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As you read even on these boards that believers do not always agree on,every point of doctrine. Its,because of a number of reasons which I won't go into here. However we all,do,agree that Jesus is the only way to eternal,life in heaven. It's not my duty as a,parent to,help my child doubt. I want them in heaven. So I am going to,teach them without doubt. Now, as we parents all know children as they grow older will,begin to form their opinions on all matters including the,matter of salvation. Some will stray for sure. Some will stop believing. But that is not my responsibility. My responsibility is to teach and train. When they teach the stage of life where they truly set their own belief I am no longer responsible. I have done,my part and the rest is between them and God. But I hope that they have enough of a foundation that they will choose to believe. It's my job to,come them the foundation. I can only do,what God has told me to,do.

Humans existed for a long time before the year 33 A.D., and even today there are regions in the world where people never hear much if at all about Jesus Christ or Him being the way.
 
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nChrist

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It's fairly obvious that some people in this thread are not here to learn about God or His Word. Their eyes are blinded and their hearts are hardened to the things of God. Instead, they are here to mock God, His Word, and His Children. Many Christians are trying to help them, but this is instead a matter of entertainment. Regardless, God is pleased with the effort of His Children, and we know that God's Word never returns to Him void. It always accomplishes His Will and Purpose. Others are reading this thread who may have better motives.

In the meantime, loving Christian parents will continue to raise their children in the ways of the Lord. May God lead and guide us all in our efforts. I'm reminded of a beautiful portion of Scripture that applies here: 1 Corinthians 2:9-16.
 
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rjs330

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So the "true" Christian can treat those who are different from him like excrement and it's ok because it's "fighting sin"? Ok, you and I obviously have MUCH different definitions of a "true" Christian...and if you think it's ok to treat people like rubbish, just remember, you are no better.

You know I here this a lot. Please give me an example you have experienced with a Christian treating you like excrement.
 
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rjs330

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Being God in the flesh, Jesus did have supernatural abilities. He spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness. He walked on water. Etc.
Yes he did but the scriptures do,indicate he suffered. It's interesting that you zero on that rather than on the rest of,what I said.
 
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rjs330

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Humans existed for a long time before the year 33 A.D., and even today there are regions in the world where people never hear much if at all about Jesus Christ or Him being the way.
Yes, I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. Sorry.
 
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Just_a_Joe

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Yes, I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. Sorry.

You said that all Christians agree that Jesus is the only way to heaven, so children must be taught as much. How about the majority of the world's population who for whatever reason did not learn about it at all?

For the longest time in human history, and even in many places today, the main religious ideology has been animism.
 
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Just_a_Joe

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Yes he did but the scriptures do,indicate he suffered. It's interesting that you zero on that rather than on the rest of,what I said.

Well, I did not intend to argue. You interstand it one way. Other people have other views. And they are sincere. What's true to you isn't necessarily true to others.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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You know I here this a lot. Please give me an example you have experienced with a Christian treating you like excrement.

All over this forum to start. Go look at the LBGT threads...what your fellow religionists say about LBGT people, liberals, democrats, Muslims...I've never seen a bigger bunch of self-righteous luddites in my life.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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I am not going to reply candidly here because I don't think you would like what I would have to say.

May God bless you.
And may His love shine upon you.

Moving on.


...

Knock yourself out...

 
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Just_a_Joe

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To return to the OP - and my last post in this thread. I was raised in a very secular country by parents both university professors. They were mostly atheist, with only formal nominal religiosity to fit in a social occasion. They never indoctrinated me in anything. But we had a million books in our home, which I all read. On a large variety of subjects. Nobody ever taught me about any religion, in theory or in practice. Even my extremely religious grandma, she never forced faith on me. I did enjoy listening to her interesting stories from her long life though. Throughout my upbringing, what was emphasized, was your responsibility for yourself, honesty, care about other people and considering everybody as equals.

In short, I had zero indoctrination from family or society. This allowed me to look at all ideologies equally as an adult, and to form my knowledge and worldview independently, without external pressures.

I see good and bad both in religion or non-religious ideologies. Nothing is perfect. As somebody stated, they are so happy they were brought up as Christian, to this I personally can reply, I am happy I was raised being allowed to be myself. I love this freedom.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Putting Scripture in context can most of the time increase understanding.

Proverbs 22:1-6 (KJV)
1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. 2 The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all. 3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished. 4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life. 5 Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them. 6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

You realize that it's almost impossible to take Proverbs out of context since it's mostly one-liners that have nothing to do with the verse before or after, right?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The determining factor on whether a teaching method can be thought of as indoctrination is simply how you handle their questions and doubts.

Parents who indoctrinate their children stifle questions. This can be done in many ways: through abuse (physical or otherwise), or simply by saying that such a question is not proper to ask. Basically, anything to avoid answering the question.

On a lower level, which is I suppose on the fringe and may or may not be considered indoctrination, is when parents give a dishonest answer where they twist the facts or outright lie.

My situation is quite different than normal indoctrination because I lost my faith almost right when I became a legal adult. I can't recall, off the top of my head, how my parents handled questions from me when I was a believer.

I talked with my parents a lot during my exploratory phase as a brand new atheist and they took their own angle: they didn't lie, but they gave very poor, dissatisfying answers that almost always raised even more questions. When I pursued the line of reasoning, they would then shut me down and say something like, "We answered your question. All you want to do is argue." I still do discuss religion with them, although they generally don't want to discuss it back and I have to kind of wrestle it out of them. Normally it would be wrong to coerce people into discussing religion when they don't want to, but I consider my parents to be a special exception since they are the ones who put all these ideas into my head in the first place.

So to answer your question, 2PV (and I do like to answer questions, seeing as how I'm against indoctrination ;)), I need to ask a question back at you: how do you handle their questions? If your children were to hurl one of the many cripplers of Christianity at you, how would you respond?

Good question. As a philosopher (and a former teacher for a short stint) I would tell my child to dig deeper into finding an answer, and I would suggest starting by collecting a survey of various positions on the topic that attempt to address the question, both pro and con, and of various positions in between. It's just basic Lit Review type research, really.

I'm sorry to hear that you're parents have been a bit "stiff" around the collar in the way they handle their religious views, particularly in the way they 'delivered it all unto you.' As for myself, I fortunately (or unfortunately) came from a family that was much more moderate; I remember watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos series with my dad when it first ran back in the early 80's. Surprisingly, talks about religion or the Bible had about a nil frequency in our household, although we did occasionally darken the halls and pews of the local liberal church, mostly at my poor mother's prompting. That was the kind of upbringing I had. :cool:

From the sound of your description, I'd say that I'm in agreement with your understanding as to what constitutes indoctrination, and with the extent to which it is distinct from the nature and processes of actual education. My Masters was in 'education,' so I think I'm on the up and up when it comes to avoiding the indoctrination of my kid. Nevertheless, I do teach the Bible in my house on a frequent basis; we read it together and I give exposition. ;)

Peace
2PhiloVoid
 
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So the "true" Christian can treat those who are different from him like excrement and it's ok because it's "fighting sin"? Ok, you and I obviously have MUCH different definitions of a "true" Christian...and if you think it's ok to treat people like rubbish, just remember, you are no better.

NO! A true Christian treats people the way God wants a Christian to treat others. It's a sin to do unto others as you would not want them to do unto you.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Shiloh Raven

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NO! A true Christian treats people the way God wants a Christian to treat others. It's a sin to do unto others as you would not want them to do unto you.

In theory, yes. In reality, no. And a true Christian, someone who actually does treat others as they want to be treated, is the exception and not the rule. I have no doubt whatsoever about that, knowing the devastating effects of cultural genocide on Native American children and adults at the hands of Christians. And please do not fall back on the No True Scotsman to excuse the behavior of these Christians or their attempts to stomp out anything remotely Indigenous out of countless Native American children.
 
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