I wish mainstream eschatology was represented equally in this forum

keras · Sep 29, 2016

Job8 said:
Since you would not believe it even if it was presented on a silver platter, I would suggest you do your own research. You already dismissed a key passage, so why would you believe any other?

Would many years of intensive study and the writing of 4 books on the subject of the Prophetic Word, qualify?
What I believe about the end times, is what the Bible actually says. Nowhere does the Bible say that God will take His people to heaven, on the contrary we are told to stand firm in our faith through all that must happen from now until Jesus Returns.

Re what the denominations believe about the end times: This subject is mostly ignored, put into the too hard basket, never preached and barely taught in Bible colleges and Seminaries. Of the dozen or more pastors that I have known, none will talk, or have any interest in prophecy. They know that I know more than they do!
The only place I can get any kind of discussion on Bible prophecy is on forums like this one. And then all I find is people who are here just to promote their own views, my posts pointing out the truth of what the prophets wrote, are mostly ignored and quickly buried.
It's obvious to me now, that this is how God wants it to be. Soon:
He will shock those people who worship Him with empty words and pay Him lip service, while their hearts are far from Him, their wisdom will vanish, they will lose understanding of what God will do. Isaiah 29:13-14 & Isaiah 29:5-6
Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord, with thunder, earthquakes and storms of devouring fire.

Calvinist Dark Lord · Sep 29, 2016

Douggg said:
Tell me more about the above.

I am pretty sure that SDA also have a set eschatology view.

Let's put it in list form. Anyone feel free to add.

Amillenial
Catholics
Presbyterians
Lutherans
Anglican Communion

Set eschatology (conformity to the denomination's position)
Assemblies of God (mainline Pentacostals
SDA (Seventh Day Adventists)

To my best knowledge, only the Assemblies require conformity to the Pre-tribulition rapture. Knowing something of Seventh Day Adventism, i do not believe that they have a view that sophisticated. However, they do require conformity to the work of Ellen G. White. White's writings on the subject are close to a Dispensational position, but not quite. i'm not certain that she was familiar with Dispensational thought at the time she wrote The Great Controversy and other works.

Presbyterians, and the Continental Reformed (same polity and doctrine, different names) are not officially amillennial. Indeed at one time postmillennialism was the majority report amongst the Reformed. Postmillennial thought is today a small minority represented by Reconstructionists. One must also consider that other Presbyterian Denominations such as the EPC do not have an "official view". Most Presbyterian denominations do not have an 'official view of eschatology'. i do know that the Bible Presbyterian Church is Premillennial (but not dispensational). i know this because this was the original cause of the split between the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Carl McIntire in the early days.

Roman Catholicism does not have an official view of eschatology. However the majority are amillennial. Just about anything except Dispensationalism is possible in Catholicism...and even amongst Charismatic Catholics, this may even exist.

i will freely concede that most of Christianity is Amillennial. However that is not an official view. It is merely a consensus.

Dale · Sep 29, 2016

Job8 said:
This sounds like a cop-out, an it is not even accurate.

Job8,

It always makes it easier when people start from the assumption that I'm wrong. On whether this is a “cop-out,” you'll have to take that up with the SBC.

The Baptist Faith and Message
THE 2000 BAPTIST FAITH & MESSAGE

X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13.

Link:

http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

Dale · Sep 29, 2016

Douggg said:
Tell me more about the above.

I am pretty sure that SDA also have a set eschatology view.

Let's put it in list form. Anyone feel free to add.

Amillenial
Catholics
Presbyterians
Lutherans
Anglican Communion

Set eschatology (conformity to the denomination's position)
Assemblies of God (mainline Pentacostals
SDA (Seventh Day Adventists)

I wouldn't expect the United Methodists or any other Methodists to have any teaching on the end times different from the Anglican. John Wesley didn't try to create a new theology.

The following sounds amillenial to me.

Quote

What does The United Methodist Church teach about the second coming?

United Methodists have varied interpretations and understandings of the second coming of Christ as referenced in scripture. While you would find many who take a literal approach to belief in the second coming, most United Methodists would be uncertain about the meaning of the second coming.

Generally speaking, United Methodists are focused on Christ and welcoming his grace--prevenient that moves us to turn to Christ for salvation, justifying that works righteousness in us and trust for salvation, and sanctifying that perfects us in lives of love of God and neighbor. We tend not to be a speculative people. Often attention to the second coming can get pretty dicey and speculative. As the spiritual descendants of John Wesley, we are practical people attending to Christ present in worship and in the daily life and needs of others around us.

If you want to get a sample of one of Wesley's sermons related to the last things, you might read his sermon on "The Great Assize."

Rev. Dan Benedict
Center for Worship Resourcing
General Board of Discipleship

End Quote

Link:

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/...ethodist-church-teach-about-the-second-coming

SnowyMacie · Sep 29, 2016

Hazrus said:
There seems to be too many "rapturists" (to coin a phrase) here!

To those who are lurking, I don't believe this is a majority view throughout the saints worldwide. In the USA, perhaps, but not the rest of the world.

It could be because eschatology for everyone else isn't really an issue to discuss.

Inkfingers said:
Not looking to start an argument...but how do proponents of "mainstream eschatology" view the 'rapture' verses ((1 Thessalonians 4:17) and (1 Corinthians 15:52))?

The word, parousia, that's translated to "meet him in the air" is the same word to used to describe what happens when the Roman Emperor or some other high ranking leader would come visit. The townspeople would actually go out and greet him as he came into town, so think Jesus riding into town on a donkey. The most accurate translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 would be "meet him in the air and then escort him back to Earth." The second is referring to the resurrection of the dead.

Job8 · Sep 29, 2016

Dale said:
It always makes it easier when people start from the assumption that I'm wrong. On whether this is a “cop-out,” you'll have to take that up with the SBC.

No one is blaming you. SBC is at fault for omitting the Rapture. They mention the resurrection as being after the Second Coming and simply ignore the Rapture.

Gnarwhal · Sep 29, 2016

Job8 said:
No one is blaming you. SBC is at fault for omitting the Rapture. They mention the resurrection as being after the Second Coming and simply ignore the Rapture.

So in other words they have orthodox eschatology.

Kthxbai

Job8 · Sep 29, 2016

Darth Bagel said:
So in other words they have orthodox eschatology.

You can call it that, or you can call it "incomplete" or "deficient". The Rapture is a key doctrine of the New Testament and may not be lightly set aside.

Winken · Sep 29, 2016

Job8 said:
No one is blaming you. SBC is at fault for omitting the Rapture. They mention the resurrection as being after the Second Coming and simply ignore the Rapture.

The Southern Baptist Convention?? Hold on, folks. Each assembly is independent, no dependence upon structure (religion), but I can assure you that they are OSAS-Premil-Rapture. Any SBC assembly that holds otherwise would be heretical in their view.

Job8 · Sep 29, 2016

Winken said:
The Southern Baptist Convention??

Yes, according to what was quoted above (post #183). Please note the absence of the Rapture -- nothing about the living being transformed instantaneously and at the same time as the righteous dead being raised:

God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

Gnarwhal · Sep 29, 2016

Job8 said:
You can call it that, or you can call it "incomplete" or "deficient". The Rapture is a key doctrine of the New Testament and may not be lightly set aside.

So orthodoxy is deficient. Kay, now we've established your "credibility".

Job8 · Sep 29, 2016

Darth Bagel said:
So orthodoxy is deficient. Kay, now we've established your "credibility".

Right. The Lord Jesus Christ also had no "credibility" with the Orthodox of his day (and they still consider themselves as Orthodox). Unfortunately, the Orthodox actually departed from genuine orthodoxy, which is the whole counsel of God.

Winken · Sep 29, 2016

Job8 said:
Yes, according to what was quoted above (post #183). Please note the absence of the Rapture -- nothing about the living being transformed instantaneously and at the same time as the righteous dead being raised:

God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly Rapture; the dead will be raised Rapture; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness Judgment Seat of Christ. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell Great White Throne Judgment, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward Judgment Seat of Christ and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

Inkfingers · Sep 30, 2016

TX_Matt said:
The word, parousia, that's translated to "meet him in the air" is the same word to used to describe what happens when the Roman Emperor or some other high ranking leader would come visit. The townspeople would actually go out and greet him as he came into town, so think Jesus riding into town on a donkey. The most accurate translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 would be "meet him in the air and then escort him back to Earth." The second is referring to the resurrection of the dead.

Parousia isn't in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The word used in that text is Harpazo:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&t=KJV
http://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

Gnarwhal · Sep 30, 2016

Job8 said:
Right. The Lord Jesus Christ also had no "credibility" with the Orthodox of his day (and they still consider themselves as Orthodox). Unfortunately, the Orthodox actually departed from genuine orthodoxy, which is the whole counsel of God.

I'm not talking capital "O" Orthodox, I'm talking lowercase "o" orthodox big guy.

Dale · Sep 30, 2016

Let's see if we are talking about the same thing.

Where I live, Rapturists say that you have to start by splitting the Second Coming into two parts. First, Jesus comes privately, even secretly, for believers, for Christians. Later, He comes publicly for everyone to see.

There is nothing about this in the Bible.

Dale · Sep 30, 2016

The Church of Christ doesn't believe in a Rapture separate from the Second Coming either.
I'm talking about the conservative Church of Christ, not the more liberal United Church of Christ.

The Church of Christ doesn't consider itself to be a denomination but they do have a headquarters.
Their headquarters denies the validity of a Rapture distinct from Christ's Second Coming.

Dale · Sep 30, 2016

Winken said:
The Southern Baptist Convention?? Hold on, folks. Each assembly is independent, no dependence upon structure (religion), but I can assure you that they are OSAS-Premil-Rapture. Any SBC assembly that holds otherwise would be heretical in their view.

You assure us of that, do you?

I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church. We spent about five hours in church on Sunday. As far as I know, Baptists never heard of a Rapture (distinct from the Second Coming) before Hal Lindsay published The Late Great Planet Earth.

Lindsay really made no case for the Rapture. He just assumed that Christians already believed in it. He says that some churches call it this and some churches call it that.

SnowyMacie · Sep 30, 2016

Inkfingers said:
Parousia isn't in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The word used in that text is Harpazo:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&t=KJV
http://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

Parousia is in verse 15, but my point still stands as in a parousia, the leader is escorted into the place. The most accurate translation would still be "meet him in the air and then escort him back to Earth", which according to verse 16, will happen after the resurrection of the dead.

SnowyMacie · Sep 30, 2016

Dale said:
The Church of Christ doesn't believe in a Rapture separate from the Second Coming either.
I'm talking about the conservative Church of Christ, not the more liberal United Church of Christ.

The Church of Christ doesn't consider itself to be a denomination but they do have a headquarters.
Their headquarters denies the validity of a Rapture distinct from Christ's Second Coming.

Wait, where is the Church of Christ"s headquarters?

I wish mainstream eschatology was represented equally in this forum

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