Is following the 10 commandments required for salvation?

Jim Langston said:

So, again, what did Jesus mean when the man asked Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said unto him, "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother."

You are saying to inherit eternal life we don't have not commit adultery, we don't have to not kill, we don't have to not steal, we don't have to not bear false witness, we don't have to honor our mothers and our fathers. Yet here is Jesus saying we do.

Jesus: Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Major1: We as Christians are not required to keep any commandments.

Do you honestly not see a conflict here?

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Jim Langston said:

Then Jesus went on to explain that one who is born again does not sin.

And for the thousanth time i am not saying that it is not sinning that saves us. I am saying that it is one of the requirements to be saved not to live in sin.

So, do not answer the question what saves us, for every cgristian knows that it us the grace of God that saves us. Yet Jesus said for Him to save us we muat follow his commandments.

Let me put it a different way, is someone saved allowed to sin freely?

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Jim Langston said:

This comes from the point of view I see in the world with reguards to sin and salvation.

A few months back I met a man who I gave money to so we could rent an apartment together. I realized rather quickly that he was a con man, yet I continued to lend/give him money when he asked for it under the guidance of Luke 6:30.

After this man left town after failing on every one of his promises I simply sent him a message God bless you. For me the cost of giving him the money was worth the fact that maybe I could set an example to him.

Now, this is where the question comes up. Someone who also knew the man and knew he ripped ofg someone else asked if he swindled any money from me and I said yes and told him how much and explained I figured out early he was probably a con man. He asked why I gave him the money then. I responded with Luke 6:30 but I also explained that I was a christian hoing to heaven for eternity. The swindler was a habitual sinner bound for hell and the little comfort he got from my money he needed because he was going to suffer for eternity. The man who asked didn't think the swindler was neccessarily going to hell because even if we sin God forgives us.

This is the message the world is getting from christians. Go ahead, accept jesus and you can continue to sin as much as you want because Jesus will forgive you. This is the lawlessness that had crept in unawares because we preach Jesus forgives our sins but are silent when Jesus says do not steal. These are the ones who teach men to break the commandments and will be called least in the kingdom of God.

This same man I was talking too is now living out of wedlock with a women and he had yet to get divorced. Why should he? He is being told he doesn't have to follow the commandments. He is being told lies.

This is what tbe bible talks about when it becomes worthless for a man to try to follow God because all he hears is the doctrine of men, not God.

God said do not steal. Jesus said do not steal. The apostles said we are saved if we are in christ and we are in christ if we follow him and don't live in sin. But so many teach you don't have to follow the ten commandments, you can break them all you want and still be saved. You are leading men to hell.

Click to expand...

Jim Langston said:

Then Jesus went on to explain that one who is born again does not sin.

And for the thousanth time i am not saying that it is not sinning that saves us. I am saying that it is one of the requirements to be saved not to live in sin.

So, do not answer the question what saves us, for every cgristian knows that it us the grace of God that saves us. Yet Jesus said for Him to save us we muat follow his commandments.

Let me put it a different way, is someone saved allowed to sin freely?

Click to expand...

Jim Langston said:

This comes from the point of view I see in the world with reguards to sin and salvation.

A few months back I met a man who I gave money to so we could rent an apartment together. I realized rather quickly that he was a con man, yet I continued to lend/give him money when he asked for it under the guidance of Luke 6:30.

After this man left town after failing on every one of his promises I simply sent him a message God bless you. For me the cost of giving him the money was worth the fact that maybe I could set an example to him.

Now, this is where the question comes up. Someone who also knew the man and knew he ripped ofg someone else asked if he swindled any money from me and I said yes and told him how much and explained I figured out early he was probably a con man. He asked why I gave him the money then. I responded with Luke 6:30 but I also explained that I was a christian hoing to heaven for eternity. The swindler was a habitual sinner bound for hell and the little comfort he got from my money he needed because he was going to suffer for eternity. The man who asked didn't think the swindler was neccessarily going to hell because even if we sin God forgives us.

This is the message the world is getting from christians. Go ahead, accept jesus and you can continue to sin as much as you want because Jesus will forgive you. This is the lawlessness that had crept in unawares because we preach Jesus forgives our sins but are silent when Jesus says do not steal. These are the ones who teach men to break the commandments and will be called least in the kingdom of God.

This same man I was talking too is now living out of wedlock with a women and he had yet to get divorced. Why should he? He is being told he doesn't have to follow the commandments. He is being told lies.

This is what tbe bible talks about when it becomes worthless for a man to try to follow God because all he hears is the doctrine of men, not God.

God said do not steal. Jesus said do not steal. The apostles said we are saved if we are in christ and we are in christ if we follow him and don't live in sin. But so many teach you don't have to follow the ten commandments, you can break them all you want and still be saved. You are leading men to hell.

Click to expand...

Jim Langston said:

Then Jesus went on to explain that one who is born again does not sin.

And for the thousanth time i am not saying that it is not sinning that saves us. I am saying that it is one of the requirements to be saved not to live in sin.

So, do not answer the question what saves us, for every cgristian knows that it us the grace of God that saves us. Yet Jesus said for Him to save us we muat follow his commandments.

Let me put it a different way, is someone saved allowed to sin freely?

Click to expand...

Jim Langston said:

This comes from the point of view I see in the world with reguards to sin and salvation.

A few months back I met a man who I gave money to so we could rent an apartment together. I realized rather quickly that he was a con man, yet I continued to lend/give him money when he asked for it under the guidance of Luke 6:30.

After this man left town after failing on every one of his promises I simply sent him a message God bless you. For me the cost of giving him the money was worth the fact that maybe I could set an example to him.

Now, this is where the question comes up. Someone who also knew the man and knew he ripped ofg someone else asked if he swindled any money from me and I said yes and told him how much and explained I figured out early he was probably a con man. He asked why I gave him the money then. I responded with Luke 6:30 but I also explained that I was a christian hoing to heaven for eternity. The swindler was a habitual sinner bound for hell and the little comfort he got from my money he needed because he was going to suffer for eternity. The man who asked didn't think the swindler was neccessarily going to hell because even if we sin God forgives us.

This is the message the world is getting from christians. Go ahead, accept jesus and you can continue to sin as much as you want because Jesus will forgive you. This is the lawlessness that had crept in unawares because we preach Jesus forgives our sins but are silent when Jesus says do not steal. These are the ones who teach men to break the commandments and will be called least in the kingdom of God.

This same man I was talking too is now living out of wedlock with a women and he had yet to get divorced. Why should he? He is being told he doesn't have to follow the commandments. He is being told lies.

This is what tbe bible talks about when it becomes worthless for a man to try to follow God because all he hears is the doctrine of men, not God.

God said do not steal. Jesus said do not steal. The apostles said we are saved if we are in christ and we are in christ if we follow him and don't live in sin. But so many teach you don't have to follow the ten commandments, you can break them all you want and still be saved. You are leading men to hell.

Click to expand...

Jim Langston said:

This post is in response to this response http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ords-day-sunday.7966382/page-18#post-70193626 in the thread "Should Christians rest on the Sabbath (saturday) and rejoice on the Lords day (sunday)?"

I will try to keep the quoting correct but I may be off and it was not intentional.



Again, my post was not in response to worshipping on the Sabbath day. It was in response to someone stating we, as Christians, weren't obligated to follow the ten commandments because we weren't under the law.



This is the text of the scripture.

Luke 18
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

This same occurrence was recorded in Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31. There are a few differences in text, the main one being Matthew 19 has the man saying "what lack I yet?" and Jesus responding "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell..." seeming to indicate that selling all that he had and giving it to the poor was not a requirement for salvation, but with it he would get greater rewards in heaven.

So, a man asked Jesus what that man had to do to get to heaven and Jesus basically said follow the ten commandments. Can we at least agree with that? The words the man and Jesus said in the bible? Whether it was because this man was a Jew and not a gentile or not, or because Jesus hadn't died on the cross at not is another point. If we can agree with what the man asked and what Jesus replied and that Jesus didn't lie we can proceed on the same page.

I make a distinct notice of the fact that Jesus says "thou knowest the commandments" and not "thou knowest the law". Commandments. Law. See the difference? Jesus did not say follow the law. Jesus said follow the commandments. Did He not?

It is my contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments. This he expressed best, I think, in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." after Paul goes on about how we are no longer under the law, meaning the Mosaic law, but under the 10 commandments which are also under what he calls in other places the law of Christ. Jesus said all the commandments were based on love god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Here is the section in Galations where Paul is saying don't follow the (Mosaic) law but follow the 10 commandments, I.E. Love thy neighbors as thyself (even Jesus left out all the commandments about loving God, curiously enough).

Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Even Paul is saying your law is now love thy neighbour as thyself, just as Jesus told the man who asked how to get to heaven, because you may notice that all those commandments he gave dealt with love our neighbors as ourselves.

So, Jesus says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). Paul says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). If you can figure out a way to steal from someone while still treating them as yourself you are denying the truth. If you love your neighbor as yourself you will will follow the commandments automatically because, as Jesus says, that's what all the commandments are based on. Jesus said do it. Paul said do it. Do what? Love your neightbor as yourself, I.E. follow the 10 commandments.

I am not talking about the commandments dealing with God. It is possible that we are only under 6 commandments but we are told elsewhere that people who practice idolatry won't get to heaven either. We are also told somewhere that the Godless won't enter heaven. So that's 9. Which leaves do we have to honor the Sabbath.



I am a Christian, I am not Jewish. I am not under the Mosiac Law according to what Jesus said. I read the new testament and read what Jesus said and Jesus tells me to Love the lord my God with all my heart, all my mind and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. I only have 2 laws to worry about. All the others fall under those. Basically if it doesn't hurt God and it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's not sin. If it hurts god or it hurts anyone else then it's sin. Easy to remember. Easy to know when I fail and have to ask God for forgiveness.

Maybe it's a cop out for me to simply state that it's because I'm not Jewish because Jews aren't under the Mosaic law anymore either. It's easier to not be told to do something then to be told to do something then be told to stop. But since I'm not Jewish for me personally I don't have to worry about it. The Mosaic law saved the Jews, not the Gentiles so they never applied to me at any time since the beginning of creation. Maybe if I live some point in the past before Jesus came I might have to worry about following the Mosiac law or not being a gentile but it's a none issue today. Jesus never said I had to follow them, Paul never did, no one in the bible I can find ever said that me, a gentile, ever had to follow the Mosaic law.



Let me get this straight, you are saying that accepting Jesus as my savior is not works it is an act. So, answer this, how by any stretch of the imagination is not doing something a work? It is, in fact, the absence of work. Don't steal. Don't covet. Don't commit adultery. This, to you, are works but accepting Jesus as my savior is not? I'll let you reword this question because on the face of it you never thought your logic thorough.

Now, your comment, we are saved by faith NOT OF WORKS. Just as the doctor example later, I had to go to the doctor. I had to take any medication he gave me. But my acts did not save me, the doctor performing the operation saved me. I was saved by the operation, NOT BY WORKS. Can we agree here?

I think one of the problems we are having is the Mosaic law was full of works. Sacrifice lambs. Sacrifice sheep. Sin offerings. Etc... Those, to both of us, are ACTS AND WORKS. Can we agree? Before the Jews were saved by WORKS, sacrificing sheep, slaughtering lambs, etc.. for all the sin they did. On top of this they were still supposed to try to follow the 10 commandments. When they couldn't follow the commandments they had to sacrifice an innocent animal to atone for their sins. Jesus has done that atonement for us. So when we fail to follow the commandments, I.E. we fail to treat others as ourselves, instead of sacrificing a sheep/lamb/ox, whatever as an act of WORK we pray to God/Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. A WORK is not needed for the atonement anymore. NOT SINNING IS NOT A WORK.



Okay, [staff edit] this just doesn't seem to make sense. Jesus saves me completely as I have always said. Jesus is the one who washes away my sins. Jesus is the one who forgives my sins. I can do nothing to wash away my sins other than ask Jesus for forgiveness. I have never denied that. It is my sins that keep me out of heaven. If I was born sinless and never sinned and died sinless then I wouldn't have to be forgiven. But no man, other than Jesus, can do that.

I do not comprehend how you are saying I am giving the doctor more credit than Jesus. Just as I had to follow the doctor's orders I had to follow Jesus' orders.

If you can express your question a little better than I may have a better chance of framing a meaningful answer.



Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! they do focus on following God's commandments. That is what Jesus asks us to do and is part of our salvation! Without trying to follow the 10 commandments we are not saved. And I never said I was perfect, I said I follow the ten commandments and when I fail I ask Jesus for forgiveness which He does because I am following his directive to focus on following God's commandments.

We seem to have the same understanding. So it comes down to one question. If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow the 10 commandments, are they still saved? If they ignored the 10 commandments and lived their lives as if they didn't exist? I think you will agree with me that the person who does that is not saved. But the person who accepts Jesus and tries to follow the 10 commandments and asks for forgiveness when they fail is saved.

I think we absolutely believe the same thing. I think you are stuck on believing that following the 10 commandments is the "works" the bible is saying we are not saved by, when I believe those "works" were the Mosaic law which we are no longer under. We both agree that focusing on following the 10 commandments does not save us. Jesus' forgiving us for our sins when we fail is what saves us. No?

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tatteredsoul said:

We are not under the law. That means if you sin, or fail to follow one of the least of the commandments, you will not be damned as an imperfect hell-bound sinner whose soul will be condemned. That is it.

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Ken Rank said:

That is not what it means. Under the law and under grace are idiomatic phrases that were understood well in the day they were penned but not so much in this 21st century, Western, slightly anti-Judaic culture we are born into. In that day, "under the law" meant you were guilty and worthy of death. "Under grace" meant you were declared to be innocent, no more guilt found in you.

So Yeshua comes into this world without sin, is tempted and withstands it, and dies perfect. Since the grave was not designed for perfection but rather for sin and death, the grave could not contain him and he rose, resurrected. In the process those who live in faith are not longer guilty of their sins (they are no longer under the law) they are now free of sin, innocent, they are under grace.

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tatteredsoul said:

As per the OP, there is NOTHING in the bible said by Christ, or God that says any of us who claim to be Children of God - gentile or Hebrew - can opt out, or neglect to follow any laws of God. Nothing.

Does that mean you can't sin in order to be a child of God? Yes, and no. No one can be of God, and be of sin. Clearly. Yet, Christ allowed for us to be under "grace" so that IF we do sin, it no longer has the power to condemn us to hell.

But, to say you can break the 10 commandments and still call yourself a child of God is categorically incorrect. Both Christ and God make this very clear.

Any bloke can claim to be Christian. So, what is the difference between those who claim to be, and those who are actually accepted by Him?

Why would God want you to continue calling yourself a child of God with the mentality that you can break any of His laws when He says they are founded forever?

I have been seeing this confused topic a lot lately, and it is actually quite frightening so many believe they can reap all the benefits of heaven without any of the work.

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Ken Rank said:

I think you better go back and read some of my older posts. All I said was, "under the law" does not mean how most use it. Yeshua said, "if you love me keep my commandment." James said, "faith without works is dead," and John said, "this is the love of God that we keep His commandments." We are saved by grace but the saved obey/work or their faith is not faith.

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Jim Langston said:

This post is in response to this response http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ords-day-sunday.7966382/page-18#post-70193626 in the thread "Should Christians rest on the Sabbath (saturday) and rejoice on the Lords day (sunday)?"

I will try to keep the quoting correct but I may be off and it was not intentional.



Again, my post was not in response to worshipping on the Sabbath day. It was in response to someone stating we, as Christians, weren't obligated to follow the ten commandments because we weren't under the law.



This is the text of the scripture.

Luke 18
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

This same occurrence was recorded in Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31. There are a few differences in text, the main one being Matthew 19 has the man saying "what lack I yet?" and Jesus responding "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell..." seeming to indicate that selling all that he had and giving it to the poor was not a requirement for salvation, but with it he would get greater rewards in heaven.

So, a man asked Jesus what that man had to do to get to heaven and Jesus basically said follow the ten commandments. Can we at least agree with that? The words the man and Jesus said in the bible? Whether it was because this man was a Jew and not a gentile or not, or because Jesus hadn't died on the cross at not is another point. If we can agree with what the man asked and what Jesus replied and that Jesus didn't lie we can proceed on the same page.

I make a distinct notice of the fact that Jesus says "thou knowest the commandments" and not "thou knowest the law". Commandments. Law. See the difference? Jesus did not say follow the law. Jesus said follow the commandments. Did He not?

It is my contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments. This he expressed best, I think, in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." after Paul goes on about how we are no longer under the law, meaning the Mosaic law, but under the 10 commandments which are also under what he calls in other places the law of Christ. Jesus said all the commandments were based on love god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Here is the section in Galations where Paul is saying don't follow the (Mosaic) law but follow the 10 commandments, I.E. Love thy neighbors as thyself (even Jesus left out all the commandments about loving God, curiously enough).

Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Even Paul is saying your law is now love thy neighbour as thyself, just as Jesus told the man who asked how to get to heaven, because you may notice that all those commandments he gave dealt with love our neighbors as ourselves.

So, Jesus says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). Paul says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). If you can figure out a way to steal from someone while still treating them as yourself you are denying the truth. If you love your neighbor as yourself you will will follow the commandments automatically because, as Jesus says, that's what all the commandments are based on. Jesus said do it. Paul said do it. Do what? Love your neightbor as yourself, I.E. follow the 10 commandments.

I am not talking about the commandments dealing with God. It is possible that we are only under 6 commandments but we are told elsewhere that people who practice idolatry won't get to heaven either. We are also told somewhere that the Godless won't enter heaven. So that's 9. Which leaves do we have to honor the Sabbath.



I am a Christian, I am not Jewish. I am not under the Mosiac Law according to what Jesus said. I read the new testament and read what Jesus said and Jesus tells me to Love the lord my God with all my heart, all my mind and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. I only have 2 laws to worry about. All the others fall under those. Basically if it doesn't hurt God and it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's not sin. If it hurts god or it hurts anyone else then it's sin. Easy to remember. Easy to know when I fail and have to ask God for forgiveness.

Maybe it's a cop out for me to simply state that it's because I'm not Jewish because Jews aren't under the Mosaic law anymore either. It's easier to not be told to do something then to be told to do something then be told to stop. But since I'm not Jewish for me personally I don't have to worry about it. The Mosaic law saved the Jews, not the Gentiles so they never applied to me at any time since the beginning of creation. Maybe if I live some point in the past before Jesus came I might have to worry about following the Mosiac law or not being a gentile but it's a none issue today. Jesus never said I had to follow them, Paul never did, no one in the bible I can find ever said that me, a gentile, ever had to follow the Mosaic law.



Let me get this straight, you are saying that accepting Jesus as my savior is not works it is an act. So, answer this, how by any stretch of the imagination is not doing something a work? It is, in fact, the absence of work. Don't steal. Don't covet. Don't commit adultery. This, to you, are works but accepting Jesus as my savior is not? I'll let you reword this question because on the face of it you never thought your logic thorough.

Now, your comment, we are saved by faith NOT OF WORKS. Just as the doctor example later, I had to go to the doctor. I had to take any medication he gave me. But my acts did not save me, the doctor performing the operation saved me. I was saved by the operation, NOT BY WORKS. Can we agree here?

I think one of the problems we are having is the Mosaic law was full of works. Sacrifice lambs. Sacrifice sheep. Sin offerings. Etc... Those, to both of us, are ACTS AND WORKS. Can we agree? Before the Jews were saved by WORKS, sacrificing sheep, slaughtering lambs, etc.. for all the sin they did. On top of this they were still supposed to try to follow the 10 commandments. When they couldn't follow the commandments they had to sacrifice an innocent animal to atone for their sins. Jesus has done that atonement for us. So when we fail to follow the commandments, I.E. we fail to treat others as ourselves, instead of sacrificing a sheep/lamb/ox, whatever as an act of WORK we pray to God/Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. A WORK is not needed for the atonement anymore. NOT SINNING IS NOT A WORK.



Okay, [staff edit] this just doesn't seem to make sense. Jesus saves me completely as I have always said. Jesus is the one who washes away my sins. Jesus is the one who forgives my sins. I can do nothing to wash away my sins other than ask Jesus for forgiveness. I have never denied that. It is my sins that keep me out of heaven. If I was born sinless and never sinned and died sinless then I wouldn't have to be forgiven. But no man, other than Jesus, can do that.

I do not comprehend how you are saying I am giving the doctor more credit than Jesus. Just as I had to follow the doctor's orders I had to follow Jesus' orders.

If you can express your question a little better than I may have a better chance of framing a meaningful answer.



Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! they do focus on following God's commandments. That is what Jesus asks us to do and is part of our salvation! Without trying to follow the 10 commandments we are not saved. And I never said I was perfect, I said I follow the ten commandments and when I fail I ask Jesus for forgiveness which He does because I am following his directive to focus on following God's commandments.

We seem to have the same understanding. So it comes down to one question. If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow the 10 commandments, are they still saved? If they ignored the 10 commandments and lived their lives as if they didn't exist? I think you will agree with me that the person who does that is not saved. But the person who accepts Jesus and tries to follow the 10 commandments and asks for forgiveness when they fail is saved.

I think we absolutely believe the same thing. I think you are stuck on believing that following the 10 commandments is the "works" the bible is saying we are not saved by, when I believe those "works" were the Mosaic law which we are no longer under. We both agree that focusing on following the 10 commandments does not save us. Jesus' forgiving us for our sins when we fail is what saves us. No?

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morse86 said:

It's impossible for us to do all of God's commandments. All have come short.

Romans 3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Through one man's sin (Adam), death entered into the world. Through one man (Jesus), life was given unto all that believe. Jesus overcame death for us. Jesus did kept all of the commandments for us. Jesus took our place on the cross and took all of God's wraith. If you stand in front of God, do you want to be judged by your righteousness or his righteousness (Jesus)?

This is what God says about our righteousness:

Isaiah 64:6:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 5:12:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Grace means you do not deserve it.
Faith means you believe in things not yet seen.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Do you have to work for a gift?!?!?!?

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tatteredsoul said:

Well if I am understanding this post correctly, it is much clearer than what I responded to (in my opinion.) But now I don't think we disagree (much, if at all.)

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