Rapture will happen..does it matter when?
- Thread starter TalwinStark
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GWT = GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT
As we know, Revelation presents three (3) ‘WHITE’ judgements -- the ‘White cloud’ judgement in 14:14, the ‘White horse’ judgement in 19:11, the ‘White throne’ judgement in 20:11.
I’m not outlining the structure of the whole of Revelation here, but from Chapter 17 on, there are two major sections.
THE PROSTITUTE -- WHITE HORSE JUDGEMENT
The first section deals with ((Revelation 17:1 the punishment of the great prostitute.)) The ‘White horse’ judgement in 19:11 through to 20:10 relates primarily to the prostitute – the ‘sea beast,’ ‘false prophet,’ and ‘Satan.’ In this narrative, the two beasts are first captured and destroyed ((Revelation 19:20 The beast was captured, and with it the false prophet…. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur.)) And likewise, Satan is judged. We are told in ((Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.)) The ‘sea beast,’ and the ‘false prophet,’ meet their fate before the thousand years, whereas 'Satan' is destroyed following the thousand years.
Of course, all who follow Satan share the same fate with him. But the focus is on the beast, the false prophet, and Satan.
THE BRIDE -- WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT
The second section commences with 20:11 and continues to the end of the book (22:21). This judgement deals with individuals (all people) as to whether they may be entitled to enter God’s kingdom or not. ((Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.))
NOTE – The judgement regarding the ‘bride’ precedes the establishment of God’s kingdom. This is obvious as this judgement determines who enters his kingdom. In contrast, the judgement on the ‘prostitute’ comes at the end of the prostitute’s reign, and marks her demise into oblivion. Satan’s kingdom is forever destroyed, and God’s kingdom is established for all of eternity.
The narrative divisions are –
- Come, I will show you the punishment of the great Prostitute (in the wilderness) = 17:1 to 19:10, White horse judgement on the prostitute = 19:11 to 20:10.
- White throne judgement to enter God’s kingdom = 20:11 to 21:8, Come, I will show you the Bride (on the mountain) = 21:9 to 22:21.
Being understood this way, there is a major structural division following 20:10. What does this division of the narrative mean?
It places the ‘White throne’ judgement 20:11- 21:8 parallel in time to the events in the ‘White horse’ judgement 19:11- 10. Notice how the White throne judgement ends. ((Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile... and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulphur.)) This is the very same fate that is previously recorded of them in 20:9. While it is recorded in both accounts, the final destruction of the wicked happens only once.
The first narrative relates to the prostitute, the second to the bride. The dividing of the narrative comes at 20:10.
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((Revelation 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.))
- Are you saying that 'they reigned with Christ a thousand years,' having been resurrected at the beginning of the thousand years? ((Revelation 20:5 This is the first resurrection.)) It is the resurrection of the just.
- Or are you suggesting that they came to life 'sometime during the thousand years,' and 'spend only a portion of the thousand years with Christ?'
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There's not 3 judgements ahead. The 1st judgement/resurrection will be perform by Christ during the tribulation just before the millennium. The 2st judgement/resurrection will be perform by God during the GWT judgement just after the millennium.
You need to know what Revelation 14 is about. Just because you were able to find the word white in the book of Revelation 3 times doesn't mean there'll be a 3rd judgements.
Satan doesn't get thrown into the lake of fire at the same time with the beast and the false prophet. What are you gonna do with Revelation 20:7-9, just throw it out the window? Satan gets locked up for the next 1000 years before being thrown into the lake of fire.
The bride is the firstfruit of the church, the elects of the gospel who gets raptured to be with Christ. The bride doesn't get judged at the great white throne judgement, instead she's being rewarded for all righteous acts at the Bema Seat and all her sins are all forgiven by Christ.
Seems like you've comingled the 1st and 2nd resurrection together which is not correct. The two events are separated by the 1000 year reign of Christ.
They're not the same event. You're severely off by 1000 years. Revelation 19:11-21 comes before the millennium, Revelation 20:11-15 comes after the millennium.
In-between is Revelation 20:4-10. Where does this fit into your timetable?
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“There are not 3 judgements ahead.” I agree with you. There are two resurrections – the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of the wicked.
Following the structure of the narrative, the ‘White’ judgments are mentioned in three instances. (This does not mean there are three judgements. Revelation often refers to the same event more than once.) The three ‘White’ judgements, which are described in the narrative, are in response to the ‘Three angels’ who announce judgements in 14:6-13.
WHITE CLOUD
The ‘First angel’s’ announcement of judgement 14:6-7, relates to the ‘White cloud’ judgement described in 14:14-20 which refers to two resurrections.
Resurrection of the just -- comparing Chapter 14 with Chapter 20
The First resurrection occurs at the beginning of the thousand years – the resurrection of the just. ((Revelation 14:15-16 “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.)) This ‘resurrection of the just’ occurring at the commencement of the 1,000 years parallels ((Revelation 20:4-6 They had not worshiped the beast or its image… They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years… This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.))
Resurrection of the unjust -- comparing Chapter 14 with Chapter 20
The Second resurrection occurs at the end of the thousand years. ((Revelation 14:18-19 “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.”)) This is the resurrection of the wicked. This ‘resurrection of the unjust’ occurs at the end of the 1,000 years and it parallels ((Revelation 20:5-6 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended… When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.))
Thus the ‘White cloud’ judgement in Chapter 14, covers both resurrections. It is a general statement of resurrection and judgement which is strikingly similar to the descriptions which Jesus gave in the gospels. (The 'White horse' and 'White throne' accounts give greater detail, and are more specific.)
WHITE HORSE
The ‘White horse’ judgement which condemns the ‘prostitute’ is in response to the declaration of the ‘Second angel.’ ((Revelation 14:8 Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.)) Babylon the Great is destroyed. The ‘beast’ and the ‘false prophet’ are destroyed at the beginning of the 1,000 years, Satan is destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years.
WHITE THRONE
The ‘White throne’ judgement which judges ‘mankind’ is in response to the declaration of the ‘Third angel.’ ((Revelation 14:9-10 If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.))
There are only two resurrections.
Regarding judgement, Babylon the Great is judged, and mankind is judged.
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There's no resurrection or a rapture in Revelation 14:6-20. It's Christ coming in judgement and wrath upon the world. Many people confuse this event with the rapture but it's severely incorrect and neither is there a resurrection during this time. The event of Revelation 14 is similar to Revelation 19 when Christ descends upon the world and pronounces judgement and wrath. The difference is in Revelation 19, John describes Christ defeating the a/c. In Revelation 14, John describes Christ's judgement upon the world. Neither has the rapture or a resurrection involved. Revelation 14:6-20 is the only part of John's narrative on the book of Revelation that's out of alignment and is better understood by others when placed in chapter 19.
~From Revelation 14:7 to Revelation 14:20, it's just one big description of wrath, no resurrection mentioned anywhere.
~Revelation 14:8 describes the destruction of Mystery Babylon. This is consistent with Revelation 19:1-2.
~From Revelation 14:9 to Revelation 14:11, it speaks of judgement upon those who follows the beast and his mark.
~In Revelation 14:12-13, it reveals the death of the saints during the wrath. There will be no discrimination, everyone good and bad will die in harm's way. Only the 144,000 are protected with God's seal.
~In Revelation 14:14-16, Christ begins His wrath upon the earth.
~From Revelation 14:17-20, it's all execution.
Revelation 14:6-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.
Other parallel scriptions below to Revelation 14:19-20 on the same event.
Joel 3:11-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O Lord.
12 “Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow—
For their wickedness is great.”
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
11 Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O Lord.
12 “Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow—
For their wickedness is great.”
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
Matthew 13:37-42 New King James Version (NKJV)
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
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Revelation 14:1-5 happens after the tribulation when Christ is on earth and the remnant of Israel are brought back from being scattered everywhere. Here they are seen rejoicing before Christ after sending His angels to gather them back to Israel. The end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium.
Revelation 14 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then I looked, and behold, Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Then I looked, and behold, Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
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There is no resurrection anywhere or any-time -- prior to the Rider coming on the ‘White horse,’ 19:11. The two resurrections happen after this event.
Revelation 14:14-20 is chronologically out of place if one were to give a simple 'Historicist' reading to it. It is placed there in the narrative, but it does not occur before the events of chapters 15 and 16. Though we undoubtedly have differences in our understanding, I fully agree with you that the events described in Revelation 14:14-20 do not happen prior to the events described in Chapters 19 and 20.
RESURRECTION IN 14:15-16
Having said that, 14:15-16 does describe the resurrection. ((Revelation 14:15-16 “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.))
This is a resurrection event.
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MATTHEW/REVELATION -- THE RESURRECTION OF THE ELECT
The verses below describe the same event because of their similar language -- Son of Man – clouds of heaven – gather – harvested -- reap.
Matthew – ‘Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven… they will gather his elect from the four winds.’
Revelation – ‘a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man… a sharp sickle in his hand… called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap… and the earth was harvested.’
((Matthew 24:30-31 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.))
((Revelation 14:14-16 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.))
We know these passages describe the same event.
We know that both passages are describing the resurrection of the just (the righteous ones). This is because in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus calls them the ‘elect.’ And in Revelation, we know they also are the ‘elect’ (firstly, because of the close parallel with Matthew) and secondly, because ‘another angel’ having his own ‘sickle’ followed immediately and harvested the ‘wicked’ for destruction. ((Revelation 14:17-20. Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle… The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath…))
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But no resurrection is mentioned in the 6th seal. Does the resurrection occur during the 7th seal?
((Matthew 24:30-31 "they will gather his elect from the four winds")) = RESURRECTION
KORAH’S REBELLION (Numbers 16)
The account of Korah’s rebellion (Numbers 16) is parallel to the seventh seal.
The seventh seal (Revelation 8:3-5) relates to ((Numbers 16:46 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.”))
((Revelation 8:3-5 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.))
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NUMBERS 16
1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain… —became insolent and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men… They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”…
5 “In the morning the Lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy… it is against the Lord that you and all your followers have banded together.”…
15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the Lord, “Do not accept their offering”…
16 “You and all your followers are to appear before the Lord tomorrow”… —you and they and Aaron. Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it—250 censers in all—and present it before the Lord. You and Aaron are to present your censers also.” So each of them took his censer, put burning coals and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the tent of meeting. When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the tent of meeting, the glory of the Lord appeared to the entire assembly. The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once.”
23 “Say to the assembly, ‘Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.’”… He warned the assembly, “Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins”…
30 “If the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.”
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them… They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished…
35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense…
42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the tent of meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord said to Moses, 45 “Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once.” And they fell facedown.
The seventh seal (the account in Revelation 8:3-5 fits here at verse 46)
46 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.” So Aaron did as Moses said... The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped.
But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah. Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the tent of meeting, for the plague had stopped.
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Does the resurrection occurs during the 7th seal? Or does it occur at the 7th trumpet? (Revelation 11:15-19)
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Do you make a connection between the 7th seal and Korah's rebellion in the verses below?
The account of Korah’s rebellion (Numbers 16) is parallel to the seventh seal.
The seventh seal (Revelation 8:3-5) relates to ((Numbers 16:46 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.”))
((Revelation 8:3-5 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.))
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I am very interested to know the reasons why you believe that 'The angel that uses the golden censer (Rev 8)/not brass as in Numbers 16 that the Korah group had...is not the same angel that later stands on the earth and sea in Rev. 10?'
This question relates to a current personal study of mine, and your feedback would be more than helpful.
(I am about to become fully occupied elsewhere, and therefore probably unlikely to contribute over the next five days. I'll check the conversation out when I can, and pick it up again if you guys are still here. God bless you as you study.)
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Matthew 24:30-31 King James Version (KJV)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You can't rapture or resurrect anyone from heaven. In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down. In a resurrection, people go up, they don't come down either.
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