Matthew 24:40-41 has me questioning my beliefs

sdowney717 · Sep 21, 2016

The 'rapture' is occurring at the coming of the Lord, it is clear from scripture, I don't see how anyone could dispute that, but they do.

The teaching that Christ's return can happen at this moment is also shown by scripture to be wrong as shown in v3.
For He does not return until the revealing of the Antichrist figure of the end of the last days.

2 Thessalonians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

So ask yourself how you have been taught, does it really agree with the scriptures?
If the rapture is at the second coming, and the second coming will not occur until after the revealing of that Antichrist, then Jesus's return is not going to occur yet.
Even so we can pray Lord come quickly, don't you think so?
Not that it is that time yet.

sdowney717 · Sep 21, 2016

Christ tells us the days will come when we long to see Him come back, and we will not see it.
So the times will be hard and difficult for those who are believers at that time.
The pre trib rapture teaching is an easy escapism popular false teaching as are all false teachings popular with many people.

One of Peter's warning is mockers will come in the Last Days saying where is the promise of His coming! So you can know that the expectation of His coming at all will feel like it is not going to happen, things get worse and worse, even up to experiencing that terrible time with still no return of Christ.

Luke 17:22-30New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other partunder heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

This is why scripture says this in Revelations 14 for the saints to be patient and trust in God, regardless of the beast's evil workings.

The Proclamations of Three Angels
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Berean1611 · Sep 21, 2016

keras said:
Matthew 24:37-44 is talking about the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal Lord's Day of wrath. It is the Day when Jesus will judge and punish the earth, Psalms 110:5-6, now in the same state as 'in the days of Noah'. Basically the pre-diluvium people were like us: getting on with their lives, mostly with no care or acknowledgement of their Maker.
When the Lord carries out His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, Isaiah 63:1-6, He will not be seen, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6 and His fiery wrath, like a lightening flash, Matthew 24:27, will kill His enemies. Isaiah 66:15-17
Those 'taken', are killed, those 'left', have God's promise of living in the holy Land, as He always intended His people to be. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Revelation 7:9 and many other prophesies.

Yes, in both the days of Noah and the future scene Jesus described, it 's the evil that are taken and the righteous who are left (saved).

Hallstone · Sep 21, 2016

marineimaging said:
I have to agree with this. As a Baptist with leanings toward Apologetics I admit I am still learning and still reading toward understanding. However, the one thing I have absolute comfort in is that we are instructed to live as if 5 minutes from now is the rapture. All of our focus should be on proclaiming the Glory of Jesus Christ, the absolute promise of His eternal Word, and that our salvation was given not through our works, but by His Grace and Love and can never be taken away. So far, no person I have heard can change that one statement by Christ when asked "When" and He answered, "Only the Father knows." That is sufficient for me and should be sufficient for the world. I would ask of you, if you have lived according the the Word and have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, what do you have to fear? What do you have to doubt? That God is a liar? A trickster with evil doings in His heart? God has promised to those who believe in His Son that you will have eternal life. There is nothing else that can take that promise away, even the day the rapture occurs. God is not a liar and not interested in mans tricks and ways. He created you, created the universe, put His hand on all we know, therefore will give you understanding as long as you seek it, have faith, have patience, and trust Him.

Those who can see, can see the signs, and know the season, we must remember that He was saying that if we turn back and cause others to stumble Jesus can come to us personally at a time we do not expect and kill us and send us off to await the judgement of the hypocrites, we must not try to mix the two different teachings to mean that He could return at any time without having the completed signs.
Rev 2:21 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 2:23 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
He is able and willing to do this at any moment He chooses, and I'm sure He has done it many times through history without us knowing about it in order to protect His chosen ones. The Day will not come upon us as a thief the way it will to the rest of the world that cannot understand the times, and the signs.

random person · Sep 21, 2016

The resurrection occurs at the time of Israel's judgment and the end of the Old Covenant.

1“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, (3.5 years) and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end (Israel) ALL these THINGS would be FINISHED.

Daniel 12:1-7

sdowney717 · Sep 21, 2016

random person said:
The resurrection occurs at the time of Israel's judgment and the end of the Old Covenant.

1“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, (3.5 years) and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end (Israel) ALL these THINGS would be FINISHED.

Daniel 12:1-7

The old covenant is obsoleted and passed away replaced by the NC. And we still have not experienced the resurrection, only the first fruits which is Christ.
Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

miamited · Sep 21, 2016

John Davidson said:
I'm Lutheran and I've always been of the persuasion that the rapture occurs on the last day when Christ returns and raises the dead.

Matthew 24:40-41 has me questioning this. It doesn't seem to jive with my beliefs. For instance it says that "one will be left" which gives me the idea that life will continue on earth after this "taking" takes place.

Thoughts?

Hi john,

I've just come to your post and I haven't stopped to read all of the following posts. I say that because what I'm going to say may have already been covered. If so, feel free to disregard.

I think you're likely wrong about the time of the rapture. It does occur in the last days, but not the last day. Revelation 14, beginning in verse 14, as we divide the Scriptures speaks of the rapture. Jesus comes and gathers those who are his and removes them to safety. Then the second angel comes who throws those remaining in the winepress of God's wrath. However, I don't think that angel actually takes those remaining off of the earth. The following account of the wrath of God being released upon the wicked seems to be happening right here.

The Scriptures tell us that God's children will not suffer God's wrath. Many believe 'God's wrath' is the same as the days of great tribulation. I don't. My understanding is that the great tribulation is a time when the people of the earth will suffer, especially believers, at the hands of some earthly leader who may instigate the people to hate on believers. However it actually comes about, believers will suffer great tribulation that, according to Jesus, will be worse than has ever been before or ever will be. After this, Jesus will come to gather his elect and then God's wrath will be released upon those who remain.

So, I don't think it will be the last day, but when it happens, the last day won't be far behind.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hallstone · Sep 21, 2016

random person said:
The resurrection occurs at the time of Israel's judgment and the end of the Old Covenant.

1“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, (3.5 years) and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end (Israel) ALL these THINGS would be FINISHED.

Daniel 12:1-7

that is not describing the Zionists that are there now, it is referring to the worldwide Church (the True Israel) those that are in the land now are considered robbers and transgressors. ' when the transgressors have come full circle, a king will arise, insolent and skilled in intrigue'. and also 'the robbers among your people will lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they will fall'.

Luke17:37 · Sep 21, 2016

miamited said:
Hi john,

I've just come to your post and I haven't stopped to read all of the following posts. I say that because what I'm going to say may have already been covered. If so, feel free to disregard.

I think you're likely wrong about the time of the rapture. It does occur in the last days, but not the last day. Revelation 14, beginning in verse 14, as we divide the Scriptures speaks of the rapture. Jesus comes and gathers those who are his and removes them to safety. Then the second angel comes who throws those remaining in the winepress of God's wrath. However, I don't think that angel actually takes those remaining off of the earth. The following account of the wrath of God being released upon the wicked seems to be happening right here.

The Scriptures tell us that God's children will not suffer God's wrath. Many believe 'God's wrath' is the same as the days of great tribulation. I don't. My understanding is that the great tribulation is a time when the people of the earth will suffer, especially believers, at the hands of some earthly leader who may instigate the people to hate on believers. However it actually comes about, believers will suffer great tribulation that, according to Jesus, will be worse than has ever been before or ever will be. After this, Jesus will come to gather his elect and then God's wrath will be released upon those who remain.

So, I don't think it will be the last day, but when it happens, the last day won't be far behind.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

The "we won't suffer wrath" verse (1 Thessalonians 5:9) is about receiving salvation vs. condemnation for our sins (in the eternal Lake of Fire).

There isn't anything in the Bible that calls for two gatherings.

The gathering is described at the post-Tribulation coming of Christ in Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. Also, the gathering is not to precede the resurrection of the dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). And Tribulation martyrs are in included in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6). Not only that, the tares are gathered for and bundled for the fire before the wheat is gathered. I submit to you that the Bible clearly teaches a Post-Tribulation Resurrection-Gathering and that the bowls of wrath will be done when He returns.

Psalm3704 · Sep 21, 2016

sdowney717 said:
This passage is universally thought of as the 'rapture event' and clearly this happens at the second coming of the Lord.
And fully agrees with Christ in Matthew 24 saying

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 King James Version (KJV)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Oh yeah, there's clearly a post-tribulation rapture when people are gathered from heaven.

.

Psalm3704 · Sep 21, 2016

Psalm3704 · Sep 21, 2016

sdowney717 said:
The rapture is a post trib rapture.
It is clearly at the coming of the Lord.
Christ comes back only a second time, not 3, 4 times.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage is universally thought of as the 'rapture event' and clearly this happens at the second coming of the Lord.
And fully agrees with Christ in Matthew 24 saying

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you all see the trumpet connection here?

Well with so many trumpets that will sound during Daniel's 70th week (the Tribulation), there's no need to verify which trumpet Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 as long as the word trumpet is found in a text it must be a post-tribulation rapture.

Isaiah 27:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will thresh,
From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt;
And you will be gathered one by one,
O you children of Israel.
13 So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 51:27 New King James Version (NKJV)
Set up a banner in the land,
Blow the trumpet among the nations!
Prepare the nations against her,
Call the kingdoms together against her:
Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz.
Appoint a general against her;
Cause the horses to come up like the bristling locusts.

Joel 2:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:

Joel 2:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast,
Call a sacred assembly;
16 Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber,
And the bride from her dressing room.
17 Let the priests, who minister to the Lord,
Weep between the porch and the altar;
Let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not give Your heritage to reproach,
That the nations should rule over them.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’”

Zephaniah 1:14-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 The great day of the Lord is near;
It is near and hastens quickly.
The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.
15 That day is a day of wrath,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of trumpet and alarm
Against the fortified cities
And against the high towers.
17 “I will bring distress upon men,
And they shall walk like blind men,
Because they have sinned against the Lord;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust,
And their flesh like refuse.”

Zechariah 9:9-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
11 “As for you also,
Because of the blood of your covenant,
I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.
12 Return to the stronghold,
You prisoners of hope.
Even today I declare
That I will restore double to you.
13 For I have bent Judah, My bow,
Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion,
Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”
14 Then the Lord will be seen over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning.
The Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And go with whirlwinds from the south.
15 The Lord of hosts will defend them;
They shall devour and subdue with slingstones.
They shall drink and roar as if with wine;
They shall be filled with blood like basins,
Like the corners of the altar.
16 The Lord their God will save them in that day,
As the flock of His people.
For they shall be like the jewels of a crown,
Lifted like a banner over His land—

.

Winken · Sep 21, 2016

In conclusion, having memorized all of the posts in this thread, I offer the one and only answer:

Jesus is speaking to the Apostles in that day. He is referencing Israel, not the Body of Christ. The Rapture is not referenced in the Olivet Discourse.

There are additional scriptural insights which reference the Trib:

Daniel 9:24-27 ; Revelation 6:1 – 19:21.

The Church Age is ended with the Rapture. It's Rapture is studied as follows:

John 14:1-4 ; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Now we can all relax.

You're welcome.......

:hug:

keras · Sep 21, 2016

Winken said:
Jesus is speaking to the Apostles in that day. He is referencing Israel, not the Body of Christ.

Sorry, Winken, but the thinking of Two People, Two Promises, is an error. There is no 'Israel' separate from the Church. Only one people of God, John 10:16, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 4:4-6, only one Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
Jesus already spoke to the Jews; Matthew 21:43 They rejected Him and still do, many prophesies tell of their forthcoming Judgement. Isaiah 22:14
The only scripture that tells of anything like a rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. This will happen at the Return of Jesus and it will be a transportation of His Christian people to where He is, in Jerusalem: having disposed of the armies of the AC, Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:17-21, just the same as when Philip was transported. Acts 8:39
So this, so called rapture, isn't a removal to heaven at all, but those righteous Christians who have endured till the end, Revelation 13:10, will go to be with Jesus and enter His earthly Millennium reign with Him.
John 14:1-4 is talking about the New Jerusalem, to come down after the Mill.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 may apply to the resurrected saints, Revelation 20:4 but more likely to when there will be an end to death; Revelation 21:4, in the eternal Kingdom of God.

Job8 · Sep 21, 2016

LastSeven said:
I don't believe that's related at all. The "rapture" as most people call it, is indeed the resurrection / transformation we will experience on the last day.

Except that the "last day" is not a single 24-hour day but a period of time which will extend for over 1,000 years. The Rapture occurs long before the Second Coming of Christ.

JacksBratt · Sep 21, 2016

I personally have no desire to predict a time. However, these scriptures lead me to believe that the 7 years of tribulation will take place after the Holy Spirit and the Church (Christians, Christ's Bride) are taken off the earth. Then the anti Christ can be uninhibited.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The one who holds it back, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth and allow the evil of Satan to be undeterred.

Hebrews 13:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

One of the many verses where we are assured that Christ will never leave us or forsake us.

John 14:16King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

When Christ leaves this earth "to go and prepare a place for us". He sends the comforter in His place. So, Jesus will never leave us, when He must leave He sends His comforter, a member of the Trinity to take His place. This replacement is also to stay with us forever. This way we are not forsaken.

Revelation 19:7-8King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So, the bride is in heaven and the marriage has taken place. We, the church are clothed in fine linen.
We cannot be on earth during the tribulation, and in heaven at the same time, and return with Christ at Armageddon.

Revelation 19:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We do not get raptured, then do a "U" turn and head back with Christ. We must be removed, with the Holy Spirit, in order to allow the Anti Christ full reign of the earth and then return, with Christ, after the marriage supper, as we join Him in the battle of Armeggedon.

Then we will reign with Him for the millennial age.

That's my outlook.

Luke17:37 · Sep 21, 2016

JacksBratt said:
I personally have no desire to predict a time. However, these scriptures lead me to believe that the 7 years of tribulation will take place after the Holy Spirit and the Church (Christians, Christ's Bride) are taken off the earth. Then the anti Christ can be uninhibited.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8New International Version (NIV)
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The one who holds it back, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth and allow the evil of Satan to be undeterred.

Hebrews 13:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

One of the many verses where we are assured that Christ will never leave us or forsake us.

John 14:16King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

When Christ leaves this earth "to go and prepare a place for us". He sends the comforter in His place. So, Jesus will never leave us, when He must leave He sends His comforter, a member of the Trinity to take His place. This replacement is also to stay with us forever. This way we are not forsaken.

Revelation 19:7-8King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So, the bride is in heaven and the marriage has taken place. We, the church are clothed in fine linen.
We cannot be on earth during the tribulation, and in heaven at the same time, and return with Christ at Armageddon.

Revelation 19:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We do not get raptured, then do a "U" turn and head back with Christ. We must be removed, with the Holy Spirit, in order to allow the Anti Christ full reign of the earth and then return, with Christ, after the marriage supper, as we join Him in the battle of Armeggedon.

Then we will reign with Him for the millennial age.

That's my outlook.

You are in fact making a position on timing--that the rapture precedes the Tribulation.

None of these Scriptures actually teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, nor do any others. It's an assumption.

Have you read the Scriptures I've posted in this thread and considered the points I've made on this thread? Did you read the beginning of Thessalonians 2 (verses 1-4), which says the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him won't occur until after the falling away (apostasy) and the revealing of the man of sin who demands to be worshiped as if he were God? This happens during the Tribulation (cp. Revelation 13), so 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 itself should debunk the idea of Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I urge you to give this more study, prayer and thought. If you are expecting to be gone, the Tribulation will come as a bitter surprise to you, should you survive to see those days.

JacksBratt · Sep 22, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
You are in fact making a position on timing--that the rapture precedes the Tribulation.

None of these Scriptures actually teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, nor do any others. It's an assumption.

Have you read the Scriptures I've posted in this thread and considered the points I've made on this thread? Did you read the beginning of Thessalonians 2 (verses 1-4), which says the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him won't occur until after the falling away (apostasy) and the revealing of the man of sin who demands to be worshiped as if he were God? This happens during the Tribulation (cp. Revelation 13), so 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 itself should debunk the idea of Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I urge you to give this more study, prayer and thought. If you are expecting to be gone, the Tribulation will come as a bitter surprise to you, should you survive to see those days.

Did you see that I posted "That's my outlook".

I am not giving a date as to when this shall all take place. I am saying that the Holy Spirit and the Church cannot be around in order for the Anti Christ to bring his plan to fruition.

There have been many arguments as to Pre, mid and post trib rapture.....I am stating my argument for the Pre trib idea.

Is there not a falling away right now. Many believe the horsemen are already running...

I have studied this, I am sure we will all be surprised at the way prophesies unfold... Isn't that always the way? Hind sight will prove, again, to be 20/20.

Luke17:37 · Sep 22, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Did you see that I posted "That's my outlook".

I am not giving a date as to when this shall all take place. I am saying that the Holy Spirit and the Church cannot be around in order for the Anti Christ to bring his plan to fruition.

There have been many arguments as to Pre, mid and post trib rapture.....I am stating my argument for the Pre trib idea.

Is there not a falling away right now. Many believe the horsemen are already running...

I have studied this, I am sure we will all be surprised at the way prophesies unfold... Isn't that always the way? Hind sight will prove, again, to be 20/20.

Many people argue Pre, and when I make a Scriptural argument for Post (as I have been doing), they either completely ignore my post or they restate their pre-Trib belief without addressing my Biblical argument (as you did). God gives you free will, so I'll leave you alone after this. But I want you to understand that I'm sharing because I'm 100% convinced Scripture teaches post-Trib and I think walking into the Tribulation with a Pre-Trib conviction can potentially be faith-destroying... Like the foolish virgins who didn't bring enough oil (because they assumed the bridegroom was coming earlier)...

I know a lot of people are going to turn away from the faith in the Tribulation (Luke 18:7-8, Matthew 24:9-12, etc.), but I don't want to be a willing party to anyone's destruction because I'm unwilling to open my mouth and challenge people's beliefs. Goodbye.

JacksBratt · Sep 22, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
Many people argue Pre, and when I make a Scriptural argument for Post (as I have been doing), they either completely ignore my post or they restate their pre-Trib belief without addressing my Biblical argument (as you did). God gives you free will, so I'll leave you alone after this. But I want you to understand that I'm sharing because I'm 100% convinced Scripture teaches post-Trib and I think walking into the Tribulation with a Pre-Trib conviction can potentially be faith-destroying... Like the foolish virgins who didn't bring enough oil (because they assumed the bridegroom was coming earlier)...

I know a lot of people are going to turn away from the faith in the Tribulation (Luke 18:7-8, Matthew 24:9-12, etc.), but I don't want to be a willing party to anyone's destruction because I'm unwilling to open my mouth and challenge people's beliefs. Goodbye.

Don't worry, we are all entitled to our erroneous beliefs on how the future prophecies will unfold.

I am 100% convinced that the rapture will occur before the devastation. Just as you are convinced otherwise.

As long as the two of us are living our lives for the Lord, not predicting dates, being watchful and warning others of the absolute certainty of troubles ahead, all the while living as if He isn't coming for another 100 years and continuing to function in society, raising our kids and being contributors to society ....... we cannot go wrong.

Being ready if He comes or if He doesn't.....

When all is said and done, we can meet somewhere in heaven and laugh about how wrong we were in our solid truth beliefs of Biblical events, past and future....

Till then or....another thread...

God Bless.

Matthew 24:40-41 has me questioning my beliefs

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