The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Bible Highlighter · Sep 17, 2016

Der Alter said:
Malachi 4:1 is about what happens to people in this world on one day. They will be like stubble.

Sorry. Currently I am not buying it. But what I will do is re-examine the passage in light of the context and pray about it. For I realize not all Conditional Immortality (CI) passages and verses listed by others is speaking of CI. But just to let you know, Scripture also speaks prophetically, too (As I am sure you are aware of).

But will you ever convince me of ECT (Eternal Concious Torment)? Not a chance. There are too many verses to ignore (not to mention the fact that I would also have to ignore morality or God's goodness on some level, too).

...

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

Der Alte · Sep 17, 2016

MountainPine said:
Why does it matter when the story took place? Moses and the prophets still stand to this day (Matthew 5:17-19). This is obviously a future event due to the fact that Abraham is conscious, as the Bible records that only Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus were the only ones who never saw corruption.

Being tormented in flames certainly sounds like corruption to me. Jesus said Lazarus and the rich man "died," past tense, not "will die," future.

You must be referring to 1 Peter 3:18-21. "Prison" refers to Tartarus, where the nefilim are being held for the day of judgment. he was preaching to them.

The word "phulake" translated "prison" occurs 45 times in the NT, it refers to an actual, physical prison in this world.
..... Jesus' earthly ministry was "preach the gospel to the poor; . . . to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," Luke 4:18. Quoting from Isaiah 42:7.
.....The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war." Part of Jesus' earthly ministry was to free prisoners. There is no prophecy for Jesus to preach in Tartarus.

Achilles6129 · Sep 17, 2016

razzelflabben said:
no it does NOT mean the same thing and you very well know that. In fact, in this discussion torture is used to insight anger....as is the word punishment...and yes, lots of us have shown you this

It does mean the same thing. Take a look at both of the dictionary links provided:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torment

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

Der Alte · Sep 17, 2016

False information. The preposition in Luke 16:24 is "ἐν/en" which means "in" not "ἀπὸ/apo" which means "from."

Luke 16:24 καὶ αὐτὸς φωνήσας εἶπεν, Πάτερ Ἀβραάμ, ἐλέησόν με καὶ πέμψον Λάζαρον ἵνα βάψῃ τὸ ἄκρον τοῦ δακτύλου αὐτοῦ ὕδατος καὶ καταψύξῃ τὴν γλῶσσάν μου, ὅτι ὀδυνῶμαι ἐν τῇ φλογὶ ταύτῃ.

"Apo" occurs in vs. 21 in the phrase "ἀπὸ/from the rich man's table." There is no manuscript evidence for any variations or other readings of Lk 16:24.

MountainPine said:
You've missed the point. Where in the bible does it say that God is going to give the wicked new bodies that will last forever in order to burn forever? Apply some common sense. A spirit cannot burn. A material body that burns will eventually be consumed to ashes. . .

Common sense? How does this post address my post which you quoted? Please explain to me how the false information you posted before has anything to do with this response?
..... Everyone is resurrected and will stand before the throne of judgment. Scripture doesn't say their spirits stand before the throne.

mmksparbud · Sep 17, 2016

Jason0047 said:
While I believe the wicked will be annihilated or erased from existence, I believe that both the just and the unjust will have a bodily resurrection before the Judgment.

“And shall come forth; …they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭(John‬ ‭5:29‬)

“...there shall be a resurrection of the dead, ...of the … unjust.”
‭‭(Acts‬ ‭24:15‬)

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ...some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬

“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, …” ‭‭(Revelation‬ ‭20:6‬)

...

Yes, everyone will be resurrected---the saved when Jesus comes to get us---the wicked after the 1000 years. However, the saved are changed--in a twinkling, in the blinking of an eye--we will go from mortal to incorruptible, immortal bodies. The wicked do not receive new, incorruptible bodies. They are simply resurrected---how they died, is the condition they will be raised up as. Only the saved are given immortal bodies. That is our reward. God does not grant immortality to the wicked. Nowhere in the bible does it say the wicked are given eternal life.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The wicked perish in the lake of fire.
The new heavens and new earth are only this heavens--this galaxy around this earth--that is the only heavens that need to be made new--it is contaminated with sin---the outer heavens are not. That is the realm of God and does not need to be remade---hell is on this earth and it goes into the lake of fire right along with death---the new earth contains no death, no dying, no hell, no pain---
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There can be no eternal torment--there is no sorrow, no pain, no crying---the former things are passed away.

mmksparbud · Sep 17, 2016

razzelflabben said:
Like I said, this approach makes God out to be a liar because He is disagreeing with Himself

No, God is not disagreeing with Himself----our interpretations are.

MountainPine · Sep 17, 2016

Der Alter said:
Please explain to me how the false information you posted before has anything to do with this response?

Why should I when you dodged my question?

Der Alte · Sep 17, 2016

MountainPine said:
Why should I when you dodged my question?

I dodged nothing! In the part of your post I responded to there was no question. You made an assertion that the preposition "en" was mistranslated, you claimed that it should be translated "from." You dodged my post!

Der Alte · Sep 17, 2016

mmksparbud said:
. . . Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
There can be no eternal torment--there is no sorrow, no pain, no crying---the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This verse says "there shall be no more death" four verses later in vs. 8 we read.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If there is no more death how can all these groups of people be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death?

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

Bible Highlighter · Sep 17, 2016

vinsight4u said:
You think people, maybe evil angels too will get out of the lake
of fire to be made ashes upon the new earth?
Yet, Isaiah 66 refers to carcases are seen at the time of being
on the new earth.
So, in your opinion, does each person get out of the lake at
different times, some after 1000 years - not the beast and the
false prophet as they are noted as there when Satan will be cast into it? The battle/s where the wicked will be made ashes
spoken of in the OT are about people living on the old earth.
They will die and be sent to hell. They are not coming out of hell to go back to the earth and do wickedly -then be made into ashes, as their time in the lake as you seem to see it ends.

God will punish the evildoers - on the face of the earth -into ashes.
But they will rise later with a body.

Be ye a doer of the word and not a hearer only.
Is that a statement to dead people - or those still alive on
the earth?

1 Samuel 12:25 But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.

2 Chronicles 22:3 He also walked in the ways of the house of Ahab: for his mother was his counsellor to do wickedly.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

As for the saints viewing the CORPSES of the wicked and not the living bodies of the wicked (who are tortured alive in fire) in Isaiah 66:24:

Yes, this takes place on the "Final New Heavens and New Earth." But nothing is said of this text that they will do this for all eternity. This is a one time event being described here.

There will be:

1. The resurrection of the just and the unjust.
2. The Judgments (Judgment Seat of Christ & Great White Throne Judgment).
3. The righteous will hear the words, "Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." (The wicked will not also be present there).
4. The unrighteous will will be destroyed and their carcases will be available to be viewed in some way.
5. And God shall wipe away all tears from the eyes of the saints; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

You can't have pain on the Eternal New Earth. Sorry. Not gonna happen.

Also, if you are to ascribe that the wicked are still being burned alive on the New Earth, that cannot be because Isaiah 66:23 says that all flesh shall come to worship the Lord. If the wicked still have flesh and are burning for all time, then they must also be able to come and worship the Lord, too (Because they have flesh).

As for corpses and ashes: Well, corpses turn into ashes. That is what will happen with the corpses of the wicked. They will eventually turn into ash (like it does in this world).

...

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

Bible Highlighter · Sep 17, 2016

vinsight4u said:
It is "as" Jonas was in the whale, then too would Jesus Christ
as to -His body be in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The soul of Jesus Christ did not go into the tomb for three days
and three nights. It was His dead body that was buried in it.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jonah did not get eaten by a fish and then live in it for three
days and three nights, then finally prayed after that.

Jesus's body (which is just an empty shell or temple) remained in the tomb. The core of what makes up Jesus is spirit. Jesus is God (Second person of the Godhead or Trinity). This is who Jesus really is. The flesh is just an outer exterior or covering. It is not the core of Jesus. The core of who Jesus is went down to Sheol or the realm of the dead which is in the heart of the Earth. Jesus compares His going down to Sheol to Jonah being in the whale's belly. Jesus does not say that Jonah was also in the heart of the Earth or in Sheol. Nor does Jesus say that Jonah was in two places (with his body being in one place and his soul and spirit being in another). Jesus cuts straight to the point and says Jonah is in the whale's belly. That is where he was at. Not in sheol.

...

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

Bible Highlighter · Sep 17, 2016

vinsight4u said:
"And beside all this..."
The word "beside" does matter.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

I see you trying to link verse after verse from the OT to this
part as to how you can be in something - or such, None of the
examples you give have the word "beside".

So the part as to being tormented in this flame is separated
as in - "beside all this".
beside -

Strong's

1909 // epi // epi // ep-ee' //

a root; prep

AV - on 196, in 120, upon 159, unto 41, to 41, misc 339; 896

1) upon, on, at, by, before
2) of position, on, at, by, over, against
3) to, over, on, at, across, against

This is still not a contradiction. Again, this would be like Bob and Frank talking to each other from two opposite sides of the width of a river that they could not enter without endangering their lives. The river also had a horrible stink to it, too. Bob said, "Frank, I am tormented by this water. Could you give me your handkerchief so I can block out some of the smell?" Frank replies, "Well, Bob, beside all this (with Bob pointing to the polluted water) there is a great river that is very extremely dangerous for me to enter and I would most likely survive going thru it."

...

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

vinsight4u · Sep 17, 2016

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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