The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

mmksparbud

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I assume you agree that God is good. The psalmist says God is good all all he does is good. The bible also declares that his judgments are righteous. Thirdly the word tells us that Gods ways are not our ways.

Put these three things together and we have the answer to how eternal punishment in hell is perfectly moral. Because it is God proclaiming and handing down the judgement. Of it were anyone else you would have a point. Since Gods judgements are perfect we accept they are moral. His ways are not ours. We are immoral.God is not. If he declares eternal punishment is moral then we need to change our understanding. The bible says right now we don't see things clearly. Our vision is blurred. Someday we will see things,clearly and it will,make sense. Of God declares it righteous then it is.


But He hasn't. There are too many other verses that state the opposite so then it is through God's character that we interpret the scriptures. He has told us He is just. So His hell has to be just and eternal torment is not.
 
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Der Alte

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#1. You still did not explain the morality or goodness behind torturing someone way beyond a finite amount of crimes committed. Please take note that while punishment is more severe for commiting crimes against individuals of importance, there is still a limit or end to their punishment (Which would be in accordance with fair justice).
I don't have to explain anything about anything. Your entire argument boils down to "My interpretation of scripture is correct, I think eternal punishment is immoral, excessive etc. therefore God must think exactly as I do."
#2. You need to provide another example in Scripture besides Luke 16:19-31 whereby we clearly see the wicked (i.e. not demons like the antichrist and the false prophet) are tortured in flames.
Why? See links to my post #679 and post #520 this thread.
#3. I speak and write English. I don't speak and write Greek like certain apostles did back in Bible times. In fact, nobody speaks or writes Greek today like the apostles did. So your attempt at pretending you know Greek as well as them is not exactly true. You can't assume you are an expert in something you have not personally experienced for yourself by living in that culture or time.
I don't assume that I am an expert but if the scholars I have quoted and referred to don't know what they are talking about then even the KJV is not reliable. The problem with your argument is that there are many heterodox groups around e.g. WWCG, LDS, UPCI, OP, INC, UU etc. all making the same arguments and claims. "We are the only ones with the true, truth about the Bible. We don't need to know anything about the Greek and Hebrew we have perfect understanding. Anyone who disagrees with us is wrong. etc."
#4. I have provided Scripture in the English to back up what I am saying. But you do not accept that the Word of God has been preserved in our own language today. Paul says he talked in plainness of speech. Paul did not attempt to communicate God's Word in a dead language he was not intimately familiar with.
Empty false argument! Greek is not now and has never been a dead language. They have never been driven out of their country or subjugated by another power. Greek has always been their language and has been passed down from parent to child for millenia.
.....What you have provided is your interpretation of an archaic English translation, which OBTW has many words which have changed in meaning or dropped out of use altogether. E.g. bewray, bolled, choler, carriage, bruit, flagons, gin.
#5. As for using examples: Well, Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. One cannot make real world examples out of something that is not true. This is just one of the many reasons why ECT is flawed. For it cannot be illustrated into a real world example.
Eternal life is flawed it can't be illustrated into a real world example. Eternal God is flawed He can't be illustrated into a real world example. I could go on and on but I think that is enough to show the fallacy of your objection.
 
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Der Alte

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But He hasn't. There are too many other verses that state the opposite so then it is through God's character that we interpret the scriptures. He has told us He is just. So His hell has to be just and eternal torment is not.
Does the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire killing men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc? When God commanded Israel to go into pagan lands and kill all the men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc?
 
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mmksparbud

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Does the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire killing men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc? When God commanded Israel to go into pagan lands and kill all the men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc?


Yes----And it was not just Sodom and Gomorrah, there were other cities who like them were see steeped in sin it required this. At one time He wiped out a whole world in a flood----but neither went on forever. No one is against just punishment for the wicked, eternal torment isn't.
 
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Does the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire killing men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc? When God commanded Israel to go into pagan lands and kill all the men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc?

On the contrary, Sodom and Gamora is an example to all who live ungodly. Sodom and Gomora was destroyed by fire and these cities are not being tortured in an endless unquenchable fire today. In other words, the example of Sodom and Gomora is that it was destroyed (and not kept alive to burn for all time).


...
 
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razzelflabben

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But He hasn't. There are too many other verses that state the opposite so then it is through God's character that we interpret the scriptures. He has told us He is just. So His hell has to be just and eternal torment is not.
Like I said, this approach makes God out to be a liar because He is disagreeing with Himself
 
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Neogaia777

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Look, in the Bible itself, it says, a "new" heavens correct the "heavens" plural, is not "heaven" singular, this means "hell" being a part of the old "heavens" (plural) will be done away with at that time also, and those in it along with it, and new ones (heaven and hell) created in their place to start all over again...

God Bless!
 
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razzelflabben

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Does the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire killing men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc? When God commanded Israel to go into pagan lands and kill all the men, women, children, infants, old, young reflect God's character i.e. just, love, mercy, grace, etc?
I know you didn't direct this at me, and it really bothers me when people try to us the OT Judaism to justify mocking Christianity, but yes, those orders to murder do absolutely demonstrate God's justice, love, mercy, grace etc. IF we understand His perspective of the whole thing. See, according to scripture, in God's perspective, His children were being lead away so that they could be raped, murdered, etc. at the hands of evil people. It would be equivalent to a father in todays world stopping a predator from kidnapping, raping and murdering his children. it would show the fathers care of the children he fathered for him to kill a predator before they were able to carry off his children. But when God does the same thing, we get our pants all in a bunch and hollar foul play on the whole things.....now, how about getting back to the point of the thread...how is the eternal consequence of hell fire in any way immoral or against God's character when it is the natural law of sin vs. a holy God?
 
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razzelflabben

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Look, in the Bible itself, it says, a "new" heavens correct the "heavens" plural, is not "heaven" singular, this means "hell" being a part of the old "heavens" (plural) will be done away with at that time also, and those in it along with it, and new ones (heaven and hell) created in their place to start all over again...

God Bless!
this is interesting, most scholars agree that heavens plural in scripture refers to the sky heaven and the heaven heaven...I have never heard that hell is part of heaven can you please provide your biblical basis for this understanding so we can review it for truth.
 
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I assume you agree that God is good. The psalmist says God is good all all he does is good. The bible also declares that his judgments are righteous. Thirdly the word tells us that Gods ways are not our ways.

Put these three things together and we have the answer to how eternal punishment in hell is perfectly moral. Because it is God proclaiming and handing down the judgement. Of it were anyone else you would have a point. Since Gods judgements are perfect we accept they are moral. His ways are not ours. We are immoral.God is not. If he declares eternal punishment is moral then we need to change our understanding. The bible says right now we don't see things clearly. Our vision is blurred. Someday we will see things,clearly and it will,make sense. Of God declares it righteous then it is.

Even unbelieving men who are unaware of God's laws do by nature the things contained in the Law. This Law is written in their hearts.

14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )" (Romans 2:14-15).

As for Isaiah 55:8 that says,
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

This is in context to sin. For verse 7 says,

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isaiah 55:7).

In my experience, most who believe in Eternal Torment also believe in a sin and still be saved type doctrine or belief. Meaning, they think a one time act of faith in their life saves them for all time and that sin cannot separate them from God (Which leads to turning the grace of our God into a license to sin). Usually (and not always) the individual who believes in this type of belief also believes in Eternal Concsious Torment and they regard these two beliefs as facts (despite Scripture and real world examples telling them otherwise). Why? Because both of these beliefs ignore morality or God's goodness on some level. Many of them also believe God told Hosea to marry a prostitute (when the text does not say that). Up is down and down is up. Bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Morality (i.e. God's morality) is swept under the carpet.


...
 
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razzelflabben

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Even unbelieving men who are unaware of God's laws do by nature the things contained in the Law. This Law is written in their hearts.

14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )" (Romans 2:14-15).

As for Isaiah 55:8 that says,
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

This is in context to sin. For verse 7 says,

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isaiah 55:7).

In my experience, most who believe in Eternal Torment, also believe in a sin and still be saved type doctrine or belief. Meaning, they think a one time act of faith in their life saves them for all time and that sin cannot separate them between them and God. Usually (and not always) these two beliefs are accepted together as fact (despite Scripture and real world examples telling them otherwise). Why? Because they both ignore morality or God's goodness on some level.


...
Interesting, I personally only know a handful of people who think that salvation is a one time deal. I know that thought is out there, but most of the people I know (from lots of different churches) believe that it is an ongoing process of growing in the Lord. Even mentioned that in this thread and everyone seemed to agree...not sure where you are getting the one time and it's done thing from unless you are suggesting (as might be the case) that we cannot be saved multiple times, which is a biblical concept.

BTW, do you know the difference between sin and crime? Most people don't....
 
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Neogaia777

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this is interesting, most scholars agree that heavens plural in scripture refers to the sky heaven and the heaven heaven...I have never heard that hell is part of heaven can you please provide your biblical basis for this understanding so we can review it for truth.
Biblical Basis... Well, how bout this, the earth(ly) realm(s) (physical realms) (All the physical, material universe) and the Heaven(ly) realm(s) (Invisible spiritual realms) (All the "energy(ies)" invisible, sub-atomic, perhaps, that are an invisible "energy" (is the only way I know to describe it currently) "Realm", that is the layer(s) of reality "under" (or underneath "layer", world) that "makes-up" or is where, or from whence came, or was created along with, or is a part of, the physical, material universe, but we can't see)...

Anyways, Heaven and hell are both part of the "invisible spiritual realm" which realm and reality is sometimes just simply called and referred to as "Heaven" that is part of our universe, that we can't see, that will be "done away with" and "re-created" along with the "physical, material universe" (earthly realms, physical realities) that we can see, both realms and realities will be done away with, and re-created, when this universe is done away with, and re-created...

It's reason an logic combined with knowledge of truth from scripture (spiritual heavenly truth) along with truth discovered by man (physical earthly truth)... That's as close as I come to and tell you about my "Biblical basis" for this understanding...

God Bless!
 
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The ultimate destiny of the wicked is:
  • To vanish like smoke (Psalms 37:20)
  • Like the snail that melts into slime, like the stillborn child that never sees the sun (Psalms 58:8)
  • Like smoke that is driven away, like wax melts before a fire (Psalms 68:2)
  • To perish by the blast of God, and to be consumed by the breath of his nostrils (Job 4:9).
  • Destroyed, wiped out all remembrance of them (Isaiah 26:14)
  • Stubble in a burning oven; leaving them neither root nor branch; ashes under the soles of the righteous' feet (Malachi 4:1-3)
  • Slaying of body and soul (Matthew 10:28)
  • To be destroyed for ever (Psalms 92:7).
  • Death (Romans 6:23)
  • Eternal destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • Like Sodom and Gomorrah: turned to ashes, and condemned to extinction (2 Peter 2:6)
  • The second death (Revelation 21:8).

...
 
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razzelflabben

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Biblical Basis... Well, how bout this, the earth(ly) realm(s) (physical realms) (All the physical, material universe) and the Heaven(ly) realm(s) (Invisible spiritual realms) (All the "energy(ies)" invisible, sub-atomic, perhaps, that are an invisible "energy" (is the only way I know to describe it currently) "Realm", that is the layer(s) of reality "under" (or underneath "layer", world) that "makes-up" or is where, or from whence came, or was created along with, or is a part of, the physical, material universe, but we can't see)...

Anyways, Heaven and hell are both part of the "invisible spiritual realm" which realm and reality is sometimes just simply called and referred to as "Heaven" that is part of our universe, that we can't see, that will be "done away with" and "re-created" along with the "physical, material universe" (earthly realms, physical realities) that we can see, both realms and realities will be done away with, and re-created, when this universe is done away with, and re-created...

It's reason an logic combined with knowledge of truth from scripture (spiritual heavenly truth) along with truth discovered by man (physical earthly truth)... That's as close as I come to and tell you about my "Biblical basis" for this understanding...

God Bless!
so, you have no passage for us to check scripture on your claim...okay, you could just have said it was man's reasoning...question, if it is so logical of a conclusion why do most scholars disagree with you on the matter? Don't take this personally, this is how I explore all new ideas to me....well, all ideas in general but since this is the first time I have heard this one we are starting at ground zero.
 
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razzelflabben

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The ultimate destiny of the wicked is:
  • To vanish like smoke (Psalms 37:20)
  • Like the snail that melts into slime, like the stillborn child that never sees the sun (Psalms 58:8)
  • Like smoke that is driven away, like wax melts before a fire (Psalms 68:2)
  • By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed (Job 4:9).
  • Destroyed, wiped out all remembrance of them (Isaiah 26:14)
  • Stubble in a burning oven; leaving them neither root nor branch; ashes under the soles of the righteous' feet (Malachi 4:1-3)
  • Slaying of body and soul (Matthew 10:28)
  • To be destroyed for ever (Psalms 92:7).
  • Death (Romans 6:23)
  • Eternal destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • Like Sodom and Gomorrah: turned to ashes, and condemned to extinction (2 Peter 2:6)
  • The second death (Revelation 21:8).

...
we have talked about many of these and the translation issues and the perspective of what death we are talking about...but that being said and not repeated, as I see this list all pulled together do you know what I see? I see poetic lang. for the purpose of expressing a thought.

Let me say it another way, I am a writer...my son also likes to write so we talk alot about how to say things in flowery lang. that will express an idea but not necessarily relate the exact thing we want to say. An example would be an ashy skin, or a sunny disposition. These phrases do NOT mean the skin was ash or the disposition was the sun...that is what I see in these examples, a flowery way of describing something that is not the exact thing we are saying. Add to that the translation issues and the context/perspective and I have to wonder what you want to base your opinions on? I mean I know where you could get your idea, that isn't my question....my question is how you could be so "positive" of your position based on the problems with using these passages to come to your conclusions?
 
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Neogaia777

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so, you have no passage for us to check scripture on your claim...okay, you could just have said it was man's reasoning...question, if it is so logical of a conclusion why do most scholars disagree with you on the matter? Don't take this personally, this is how I explore all new ideas to me....well, all ideas in general but since this is the first time I have heard this one we are starting at ground zero.
Ok, so the old heaven is done away with (destroyed) and re-created "anew" but "hell" is not...?

Would you agree that heaven is a spiritual place, and hell is also a spiritual place? That both are part of the "invisible", the "spiritual"... And, earth is part of the "visible", and that both what is visible and invisible, "all" of it/them will be done away with (destroyed) and re-created "anew"? Or not?

Is that easier/simpler?

You asked for a Biblical basis earlier as to how or why I believe this... Can I ask you for the same then, a Biblical basis why it is not? Or how or why or can you back up somehow why it is that most scholars disagree?

God Bless!
 
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Hell is the grave (sheol). According to the Bible, we all go to the grave when we die (Psalms 90:3, Psalms 104:29, Job 34:15). While we are dead, we are completely unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5). There will be two resurrections of the dead at the end of the world. The first resurrection will be for the righteous dead and the Elect. They will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:4-6). Then everybody else will be resurrected and judged according to their works (Revelation 20:12). Some will receive everlasting life too, but no inheritance, and will be subject to everlasting shame and contempt (Daniel 12:2, Jeremiah 23:40), and anyone's name who is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), in which they will be annihilated (Psalms 92:7, Malachi 4:1, 1 Corinthians 3:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Philippians 3:19, 2 Peter 2:3). Everlasting torment is not Biblical, it is purely a Church doctrine. The only way everlasting torment is possible is that the condemned will receive everlasting life in order to burn eternally, but the Bible makes it clear that everlasting life is not reserved for the wicked. God is not going to create new bodies that last forever for those who lived in sin. That is preposterous.

What about the account in Luke 16 where it describes a rich man being tormented you may wonder? Half of the problem with Christian theology is the false equivocation of the flame in this context with hell or the grave. Jesus did not say that the rich man was in the fire; he said that he was in hell, or the grave, clearly meaning that his spirit rose up from the grave and found itself somewhere else.

In the original text of the 24th verse there is nothing to indicate whether the preposition should be “in” (this fire) or “from” it. The rich man is awaiting his punishment, at the edge of the flame but not yet in it. He is parched, not burning; a single drop of water is an extremely humble request for someone allegedly being consumed by fire. It is enough to moisten a man’s tongue but not enough to cool his burning flesh.

The man is in mental anguish, believing that he is going to be thrown into the fire, and after a lifetime of unrighteousness is finally willing to change his ways now that he sees what the result of his sin is. He has “seen the light,” so to speak. Metaphysical necessity demanded his uprightness, but natural law was not enough to convince him of this, so Jesus has intervened with the looming threat of damnation in order to achieve what Moses and the prophets could not. The whole parable is really about the foolishness of the man who does not listen to the voice of reason but instead lives the way his wicked heart foolishly desires.

So Lazarus and the rich man both died, were both buried and both ceased to exist, with no knowledge, until they were resurrected. Lazarus was resurrected together with Abraham at Christ’s coming and ruled with him in the kingdom. The rich man was left in anguish in the grave while Lazarus was comforted, until at last being resurrected after this, to “judgment.” That this happened before the judgment is blatantly obvious due to the fact that the man pleaded for the sake of his own brothers (hence the Christians’ assertion that we go to heaven or “hell” “immediately” when we die). Had he continued in unbelief then he would resurrected only to be thrown into the lake of fire, being consumed by the fire and ceasing to exist forever.

What about Revelation 14:9-11? First of all, everlasting smoke does not refer to everlasting torture. The events of this passage taken out of its context occur before the final judgment, just as the rich man’s torment in the parable of Lazarus do. They are in torment as they reflect upon their lives, awaiting their fate of being thrown into the sulfurous fire. This is practically the same fate as that of the nefilim who are reserved for judgment in “everlasting” chains. The word is used in both cases to show the prisoners cannot escape, not that they are bound to it forever. Moreover, it is the same fire used for each cycle of creation. (see 2 Peter 2:1-17)
 
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On the contrary, Sodom and Gamora is an example to all who live ungodly. Sodom and Gomora was destroyed by fire and these cities are not being tortured in an endless unquenchable fire today. In other words, the example of Sodom and Gomora is that it was destroyed (and not kept alive to burn for all time).
...
Infants and children live ungodly? So you don't have a problem with God killing men, women, children, infants, old and young with fire, which must have been agonizing. Your only objection is if it lasts a long time.
 
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Hell is the grave (sheol). According to the Bible, we all go to the grave when we die (Psalms 90:3, Psalms 104:29, Job 34:15). While we are dead, we are completely unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5). There will be two resurrections of the dead at the end of the world. The first resurrection will be for the righteous dead and the Elect. They will be resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:4-6). Then everybody else will be resurrected and judged according to their works (Revelation 20:12). Some will receive everlasting life too, but no inheritance, and will be subject to everlasting shame and contempt (Daniel 12:2, Jeremiah 23:40), and anyone's name who is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), in which they will be annihilated (Psalms 92:7, Malachi 4:1, 1 Corinthians 3:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Philippians 3:19, 2 Peter 2:3). Everlasting torment is not Biblical, it is purely a Church doctrine. The only way everlasting torment is possible is that the condemned will receive everlasting life in order to burn eternally, but the Bible makes it clear that everlasting life is not reserved for the wicked. God is not going to create new bodies that last forever for those who lived in sin. That is preposterous.

What about the account in Luke 16 where it describes a rich man being tormented you may wonder? Half of the problem with Christian theology is the false equivocation of the flame in this context with hell or the grave. Jesus did not say that the rich man was in the fire; he said that he was in hell, or the grave, clearly meaning that his spirit rose up from the grave and found itself somewhere else.

In the original text of the 24th verse there is nothing to indicate whether the preposition should be “in” (this fire) or “from” it. The rich man is awaiting his punishment, at the edge of the flame but not yet in it. He is parched, not burning; a single drop of water is an extremely humble request for someone allegedly being consumed by fire. It is enough to moisten a man’s tongue but not enough to cool his burning flesh.

The man is in mental anguish, believing that he is going to be thrown into the fire, and after a lifetime of unrighteousness is finally willing to change his ways now that he sees what the result of his sin is. He has “seen the light,” so to speak. Metaphysical necessity demanded his uprightness, but natural law was not enough to convince him of this, so Jesus has intervened with the looming threat of damnation in order to achieve what Moses and the prophets could not. The whole parable is really about the foolishness of the man who does not listen to the voice of reason but instead lives the way his wicked heart foolishly desires.

So Lazarus and the rich man both died, were both buried and both ceased to exist, with no knowledge, until they were resurrected. Lazarus was resurrected together with Abraham at Christ’s coming and ruled with him in the kingdom. The rich man was left in anguish in the grave while Lazarus was comforted, until at last being resurrected after this, to “judgment.” That this happened before the judgment is blatantly obvious due to the fact that the man pleaded for the sake of his own brothers (hence the Christians’ assertion that we go to heaven or “hell” “immediately” when we die). Had he continued in unbelief then he would resurrected only to be thrown into the lake of fire, being consumed by the fire and ceasing to exist forever.

What about Revelation 14:9-11? First of all, everlasting smoke does not refer to everlasting torture. The events of this passage taken out of its context occur before the final judgment, just as the rich man’s torment in the parable of Lazarus do. They are in torment as they reflect upon their lives, awaiting their fate of being thrown into the sulfurous fire. This is practically the same fate as that of the nefilim who are reserved for judgment in “everlasting” chains. The word is used in both cases to show the prisoners cannot escape, not that they are bound to it forever. Moreover, it is the same fire used for each cycle of creation. (see 2 Peter 2:1-17)

Hmmm.... interesting. I never thought of the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man in that way before. I do wish that this is true. But I always thought that this real and literal story (in regards to the after-life) that took place during the time of Moses and the prophets because Abraham tells the rich-man that that the rich-man's brothers have Moses and the prophets and that they are to hear them (versus hearing one who has rose from the dead). Abraham did not appear to treat his brothers as being dead and gone (or that they were among him in hell and or in Abraham's bosom). But I would like to hear your explanation on this (because it would help to reconcile the Scriptures in such a way that I never considered before).

Please take note that if what you say is true, and the dead do sleep until the resurrection, we have to address the fact that Jesus spoke to the spirits in prison while he was in the heart of the Earth (i.e. Sheol or the realm of the dead) for three days and three nights, too. Who are these spirits that Jesus preached to? Were they demons or were they departed souls? If they are departed souls, then Jesus would have had to wake them up out of their slumber to preach to them.


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