Biblical Marriage

Joe Green said:

No later then 2023. Have you googled Rapture 2023?

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I googled "rapture 2023", yes, and got the following. It looks really cool!
https://www.behance.net/gallery/14062053/Aston-Martin-Rapture-2023

As for any speculations about the rapture, I suspect any predicted dates will come and go, without incident, as they've already done plenty of times before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture#Failed_predictions).

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Cearbhall said:

What did it have to do with, then? They could have multiple wives, but a woman couldn't have multiple husbands.

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It has to do with what God says and does, not what seems fair and right to us. The word of God defines adultery as a man laying with another man's wife, or desiring another man's wife. Therefore, a woman with multiple husbands falls well within the biblical definition of adultery, which bars one from Heaven.

Oops! That speaks to lots of divorced people who are on what they think is a subsequent marriage after performing the legal maneuver of Westernized "divorce," which God does not recognize.

Not many people believe he ever did such a thing...

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It matters not at all what people believe. What matters is the very word of God.

Those who don't like what the word of God says almost always invent their own gods and follow after them.

So the REAL question is, what are YOU going to do? Are you going to invent some non-existent god to follow....one that conforms to what you believe, or will you follow the One who is Sovereign, and therefore outside our ability to manipulate and command at whim?

God gave some men plural wives. Personal belief about the matter changes not one word of what's written. If this violates your beliefs, then I suggest finding a nice, safe institutionalized Bible study group that teaches only what is socially acceptable and proper according to Western culture and dogmas. They provide the warm little fuzzies so many people crave. Passengers on the Good-Ship Lollipop lean toward being very easily rankled when confronted with things that contradict the social gospels of the West.

On the other hand, I encourage you to read what the Bible actually says, for yourself, and THEN compare what you read to what you hear from pulpits and so-called "Bible studies". You might begin to see some departures.

Jr

ToBeLoved said:

Well Jesus compares His relationship His church by calling the church His Bride and Him the Bridegroom.

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God gave a certificate of divorce to Israel.

"I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery." Jeremiah 3:8

joshua 1 9 said:

God gave a certificate of divorce to Israel.

"I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery." Jeremiah 3:8

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Yes, this is interesting to note. God Himself is, apparently, a divorcée.

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SwordmanJr said:

It has to do with what God says and does, not what seems fair and right to us. The word of God defines adultery as a man laying with another man's wife, or desiring another man's wife. Therefore, a woman with multiple husbands falls well within the biblical definition of adultery, which bars one from Heaven.

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I think this is just one of those conversations that's difficult to have between a Bible-focused Christian and a non-Christian. Not your fault, of course. In your opinion, they wrote those verses because God told them to, and that's all there is to it. No ill will towards women, no institutionalized or societal problems, just humans acting as God's messengers. In my opinion, they were never told anything and were just writing what their culture said and what they believed about men and women, so there are reasons behind that. Thanks for the response, though.

SwordmanJr said:

Oops! That speaks to lots of divorced people who are on what they think is a subsequent marriage after performing the legal maneuver of Westernized "divorce," which God does not recognize.

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Under the law if a husband has sex with another man's wife then he is worthy of death and his wife would be free to remarry. David ran into this issue with Bathsheba. Although it was the child that died.

Rev 2 …22 Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. 23 Then I will strike her children dead,and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

1 cor 11 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.…

ToBeLoved said:

Well Jesus compares His relationship His church by calling the church His Bride and Him the Bridegroom.

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So, where does the text draw a parallel between that imagery and marital forms among men and women here on earth today, without you applying any measure of subjectivity? Surely God is able to convey through His inspiration to the writers to make such a connection absolutely clear as opposed to being ethereal and abstract.

Now why would God refer to us as a Bride, singular if God was advocating polygamy?

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I don't recall my saying God advocating polygamy. I said that God involved Himself in the giving of plural wives to men. That's called polygyny. Polygamy is broadly encompassing of marital forms that are sin.

I mean mind you these are not overwhelming evidence, but coupled with 1 Timothy, I think the picture is clear. God is not going to call His church officer's to something different than every other believer. When has God ever done that in the NT?

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It is written that those in leadership within the Church shall be judged doubly. Now, if you think that subjectively separating out distinctions for marriage from other very obvious distinctions is right, then doing so calls into serious question your willingness to accept what is written in God's word without injecting into it many other elements of subjectivity simply to make it more palatable to your own (what appears to be) contrived belief system.

What I suggest is to let scripture speak for itself rather than giving in to the socially engineered theologies of western culture.

Jr

Cearbhall said:

I think this is just one of those conversations that's difficult to have between a Bible-focused Christian and a non-Christian. Not your fault, of course. In your opinion, they wrote those verses because God told them to, and that's all there is to it. No ill will towards women, no institutionalized or societal problems, just humans acting as God's messengers. In my opinion, they were never told anything and were just writing what their culture said and what they believed about men and women, so there are reasons behind that. Thanks for the response, though.

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Well, that's a violation of this forum's rules to trash another's faith. However, you seem to possess a system of belief that relegates the Bible to the level of absolute subjectivity. That's sad. If you consider yourself a Christian, then at least live what you say you believe. I can prove my case. You cannot. You also seem incapable of engaging a reasonable discussion on the topic. Instead, you resort to ad hominem.

Very sad indeed.

SwordmanJr said:

Well, that's a violation of this forum's rules to trash another's faith.

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What is...? How could you possibly interpret my post as a violation of that rule?

SwordmanJr said:

However, you seem to possess a system of belief that relegates the Bible to the level of absolute subjectivity. That's sad.

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Well, yes, that's generally what happens when a person isn't a Christian. It's not "sad."

SwordmanJr said:

If you consider yourself a Christian, then at least live what you say you believe.

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I'm not a Christian, and I never said I was.

Cearbhall said:

What is...?

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Calling me a "non-Christian" clearly violates the forum directive.

chaela said:

As for any speculations about the rapture, I suspect any predicted dates will come and go, without incident, as they've already done plenty of times before

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The big one was the year 2,000. Even Bill Gates took advantage of that to get everyone to buy a new computer. The 2,000 year anniversary of the Church in 2029 will be the next big one that people well want to cash in on. Even Neil degrasse Tyson is already trying to cash in on that.

SwordmanJr said:

I can prove my case. You cannot.

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It's hard to prove that an ancient author was transcribing divine commands.

SwordmanJr said:

You also seem incapable of engaging a reasonable discussion on the topic.

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I thought I was very civil. What is the problem here?

SwordmanJr said:

Instead, you resort to ad hominem.

Very sad indeed.

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Where? I said it wasn't your fault. I never attacked you or blamed you for anything.

Cearbhall said:

I'm not a Christian, and I never said I was.

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Really? I know lots of universalists, and they all consider themselves Christian.

Wow. This is quite a twist.

SwordmanJr said:

Calling me a "non-Christian" clearly violates the forum directive.

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...I was referring to myself.

SwordmanJr said:

Really? I know lots of universalists, and they all consider themselves Christian.

Wow. This is quite a twist.

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I'm a Unitarian Universalist, and what's more, my profile quite clearly states "Other Religion," which means not Christian. Perhaps in the future you should check that before going off the rails.

SwordmanJr said:

So, where does the text draw a parallel between that imagery and marital forms among men and women here on earth today, without you applying any measure of subjectivity? Surely God is able to convey through His inspiration to the writers to make such a connection absolutely clear as opposed to being ethereal and abstract.

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Well since you want an understanding of Jesus being the Bridegroom and the Church being the Bride, I will list the verses here for your investigation. You will see it is not an off the hip allegory, but one used much in scripture.

24 Bible Verses about Bridegroom

Isaiah 61:10
I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.


Matthew 25:1-12
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, read more.

Judges 14:10-11
Then his father went down to the woman; and Samson made a feast there, for the young men customarily did this. When they saw him, they brought thirty companions to be with him.

John 3:29
"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice So this joy of mine has been made full.

John 3:29
"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice So this joy of mine has been made full.

Isaiah 61:10
I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.


John 2:7-10
Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." So they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it to him. When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom,

Judges 14:10
Then his father went down to the woman; and Samson made a feast there, for the young men customarily did this.

John 2:9-10
When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

Joel 2:16
Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and the nursing infants Let the bridegroom come out of his room And the bride out of her bridal chamber.

Psalm 19:4-5
Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world In them He has placed a tent for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.

Jeremiah 7:34
"Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin.

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you.

Jeremiah 16:9
For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I am going to eliminate from this place, before your eyes and in your time, the voice of rejoicing and the voice of gladness, the voice of the groom and the voice of the bride.

Jeremiah 25:10
'Moreover, I will take from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp.

Jeremiah 33:11
the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voice of those who say, "Give thanks to the LORD of hosts, For the LORD is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting"; and of those who bring a thank offering into the house of the LORD. For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were at first,' says the LORD.

Revelation 18:23
and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

Deuteronomy 24:5
"When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken.

Deuteronomy 20:1-7
"When you go out to battle against your enemies and see horses and chariots and people more numerous than you, do not be afraid of them; for the LORD your God, who brought you up from the land of Egypt, is with you. "When you are approaching the battle, the priest shall come near and speak to the people. "He shall say to them, 'Hear, O Israel, you are approaching the battle against your enemies today. Do not be fainthearted. Do not be afraid, or panic, or tremble before them, read more.

Matthew 9:14-15
Then the disciples of John came to Him, asking, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Mark 2:18-20
John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they came and said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

Luke 5:33-35
And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink." And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."

Ephesians 5:22-33
Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. read more.

Matthew 25:1
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Matthew 25:1
Verse Concepts"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6
Verse Concepts
"But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

John 3:29
Verse Concepts
"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice So this joy of mine has been made full.

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Mark 2:19-20
And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

Luke 5:34-35

And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."


Song of Songs 4:7-16
"You are altogether beautiful, my darling, And there is no blemish in you. "Come with me from Lebanon, my bride, May you come with me from Lebanon Journey down from the summit of Amana, From the summit of Senir and Hermon, From the dens of lions, From the mountains of leopards. "You have made my heart beat faster, my sister, my bride; You have made my heart beat faster with a single glance of your eyes, With a single strand of your necklace. read more.


Ezekiel 16:8-14
"Then I passed by you and saw you, and behold, you were at the time for love; so I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness I also swore to you and entered into a covenant with you so that you became Mine," declares the Lord GOD. "Then I bathed you with water, washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil. "I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk. read more.


Matthew 25:1-13
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, read more.


I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Judges 14:11
When they saw him, they brought thirty companions to be with him.

Deuteronomy 24:5
"When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken.


Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Matthew 25:1
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6
"But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

John 3:29
"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice So this joy of mine has been made full.

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

ToBeLoved said:

Well since you want an understanding of Jesus being the Bridegroom and the Church being the Bride, I will list the verses here for your investigation. You will see it is not an off the hip allegory, but one used much in scripture.

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No. You misunderstood my question. What I was asking is where scripture draws the parallel between the imagery of the bridegroom, the bride, and what the Lord wants in marital form today as a support for monogamy only thinking? The Lord was/is fully capable of coming right out and stating a command that all men NOW be limited to only one wife.

The weakness of pointing at singular in relation to plural is a very strange defense. Were I to apply that convenient rule as a method for interpretation, we would all be stuck with being allowed to have only one son. After all, we're instructed to tell our "son", singular, to not despise the chastening of the Lord, and many other instructions throughout. Is it not consistent with the Lord's teachings that we instruct ALL our sons in righteousness rather than just one?

So, when we dispense with conjured up criteria for understanding scripture, we're still stuck with the fact that the Lord had two wives, Judah and Israel, one of which He divorced, but offered to take her back if she would only turn from her adulteries, AND he gave men plural wives. Those are not the actions and words of a Lord who is opposed to the polygyny marital form. But, there are some who would have us all believe that God is fickle, that He changes with culture and society.

Sorry, but I don't buy all that scruff. I'm not saying men should now go out and find a second wife. No. Not at all. What I'm saying is that the Lord sometimes has something in mind that is different for some men than for others, and to tell those other men they are in the wrong because of a newly contrived set of rules for interpretation, that just lacks the ring of truth to it.

If we go along with such a warped interpretation as the bridegroom argument, then we may as well go along with all the name-it-claim-it gang, and demand the Lord become that Sugar-daddy in the sky we want, and make us all prosperous at the level we so desire.

Jr

Cearbhall said:

...I was referring to myself.

I'm a Unitarian Universalist, and what's more, my profile quite clearly states "Other Religion," which means not Christian. Perhaps in the future you should check that before going off the rails.

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So, what you're saying is that "other religion" is.......what? What defines that "other religion"?

SwordmanJr said:

So, what you're saying is that "other religion" is.......what? What defines that "other religion"?

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Once again, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. If you'd like to know more, you can look it up and/or start a thread in the appropriate board.