(moved) "RACE" IS AN ARTIFICIAL SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.

SolomonVII

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Are you saying that dark skin color is a corruption of God's design?
Oh I am sure that is not the point he was making.
Whatever the reasons for skin colour differentiation, I am very confident that the point that he is making is that the post-Fall corruption is a moral one, and involves people using skin colour as an excuse to dehumanize people of other tribes.

As far as I know the reasons for different skin colour tone are due to both environmental adaptations and social ones. Lighter skin tones allow for the retention of more Vitamin D in areas where the amount of sunlight becomes a factor. As well, the sexual preferences of people when it comes to appearance have a way of selecting different physical features in populations as well.

In terms of the Bible, differentiation between people served God in actually preventing the group-consciousness and group-think that developed in the building of the tower of Babel. It is an interesting meditation point as to why God did not really want the kind of massive group cooperation that developed in the technological feat of the construction of the Tower of Babel, but the reason that God created diversity about people was to prevent that kind of mass communication and cooperation in a venture such as that.
Morally speaking, the differentiation of people was a result of God imposing diversity on the people of Babel.
 
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MountainPine

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I promote tolerance for homosexuals and LGBT groups. Surely, I strongly disagree with their practices and I refuse to accept them as morally correct, but this does not mean that I would reject them as people. Their existence should be freely tolerated by everyone. In other words, I promote tolerance for homosexuals and intolerance for homosexuality. Gay Christians need to be taught that their activities are incorrect in light of the Bible.

[Romans 1:18-32] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Accepting them as people is the same thing as accepting their practices.
 
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JackRT

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Accepting them as people is the same thing as accepting their practices.

But THEY ARE PEOPLE --- we have no choice but accept them as such.
 
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MountainPine

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So you're okay with immorality then? Do you consider yourself to be wiser than Moses, Paul or even Christ? You think you know better than God? Or do you think the prophets were wrong about God's nature—that God is not who the Bible says he is?
 
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JackRT

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So you're okay with immorality then? Do you consider yourself to be wiser than Moses, Paul or even Christ? You think you know better than God? Or do you think the prophets were wrong about God's nature—that God is not who the Bible says he is?

I am acutely aware of my own limitations but I am also aware that our scriptures are also human products with all the same limitations. I read them in the context of the history and culture and beliefs and the literary traditions of their time and place. It has enabled me to gain a much better understanding of Christianity and Judaism.
 
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Poppyseed78

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It doesn't matter if race is a social construct. Its impact is very real. The human perception of race as a real thing, has been used to justify slavery, wars, and discrimination for centuries. What matters is the effect race has had on humanity. To deny the impact is both naive and insulting.
 
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greenguzzi

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Would you like me to answer these questions, or are you giving me "a few clues"?
They were meant as rhetorical questions, intended to give a few clues as to where I'm coming from; in the hope of rectifying our misunderstanding.
 
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Inkfingers

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Quote me the word "RACE" or "RACISM" in the Bible

(Revelation 7:9)

The word "nations" is translated from the word Ethnos from where we get our word "ethnicity".
The word "peoples" is translated from the Grk Laos meaning people of a common stock.

Race means people of a common stock (that's the dictionary definition).

Race is there in the Bible. It exists. You can argue that it is irrelevant by all means (and it certainly is within the Body of Christ) but to claim that it is not there is a claim from emotion not fact.
 
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greenguzzi

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Race means people of a common stock (that's the dictionary definition).
That is only one definition, and it's a very ambiguous one. It's also not what most of us mean by "race", and I suspect that this is true regardless of what side of the debate one is on.

It is possible to divide humans into any number of groups, somewhere between one to over seven billion. However, for most purposes these divisions are arbitrary. Which brings us back to the fact that race is a social construct.
 
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greenguzzi

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Oh I am sure that is not the point he was making.
Whatever the reasons for skin colour differentiation, I am very confident that the point that he is making is that the post-Fall corruption is a moral one, and involves people using skin colour as an excuse to dehumanize people of other tribes.

As far as I know the reasons for different skin colour tone are due to both environmental adaptations and social ones. Lighter skin tones allow for the retention of more Vitamin D in areas where the amount of sunlight becomes a factor. As well, the sexual preferences of people when it comes to appearance have a way of selecting different physical features in populations as well.

In terms of the Bible, differentiation between people served God in actually preventing the group-consciousness and group-think that developed in the building of the tower of Babel. It is an interesting meditation point as to why God did not really want the kind of massive group cooperation that developed in the technological feat of the construction of the Tower of Babel, but the reason that God created diversity about people was to prevent that kind of mass communication and cooperation in a venture such as that.
Morally speaking, the differentiation of people was a result of God imposing diversity on the people of Babel.
I'm quoting this because I took so long before I logged on and agreed with it.

Although the Tower-of-Babel/technological-feat angle is not one I had considered. I'm pretty sure we have built that tower.
 
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Inkfingers

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That is only one definition, and it's a very ambiguous one. It's also not what most of us mean by "race", and I suspect that this is true regardless of what side of the debate one is on.

It is possible to divide humans into any number of groups, somewhere between one to over seven billion. However, for most purposes these divisions are arbitrary. Which brings us back to the fact that race is a social construct.

The boundaries may be fuzzy, because the variables are complex, but that does not make the distinctions "arbitrary"; it is very straight-forward to base a disctinction of the three key races on evidence (skin colour, skull shape, body hair). Don't confuse the fuzzy boundaries of complexity with the unsystematic nature of "arbitrary", they are not the same.
 
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greenguzzi

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Don't confuse the fuzzy boundaries of complexity with the unsystematic nature of "arbitrary", they are not the same.
No confusion. Skin colour, skull shape, and body hair are arbitrary parameters. One might as well chose height, nose length, and earwax type; because they are also determined by our genes. Substitute "complexity" with "arbitrary" if you like, it's still the same conclusion; we are complex, but race is still a social construct.
 
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Radrook

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This reminds me of a certain Star Trek episode were these two seemingly identical humanoid alien races from the same planet were extremely hostile to one another. Each one was white on one side and black on the other side right down the middle of their bodies. When Kirk asked them why they were feuding over racial differences since they were obviously identical, the response by the planetary dominant discriminating race was:

"No we are NOT identical. They are white on the left side of their bodies and we are white on the right side which makes us clearly superior!""
 
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Radrook

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Oh I am sure that is not the point he was making.
Whatever the reasons for skin colour differentiation, I am very confident that the point that he is making is that the post-Fall corruption is a moral one, and involves people using skin colour as an excuse to dehumanize people of other tribes.

As far as I know the reasons for different skin colour tone are due to both environmental adaptations and social ones. Lighter skin tones allow for the retention of more Vitamin D in areas where the amount of sunlight becomes a factor. As well, the sexual preferences of people when it comes to appearance have a way of selecting different physical features in populations as well.

In terms of the Bible, differentiation between people served God in actually preventing the group-consciousness and group-think that developed in the building of the tower of Babel. It is an interesting meditation point as to why God did not really want the kind of massive group cooperation that developed in the technological feat of the construction of the Tower of Babel, but the reason that God created diversity about people was to prevent that kind of mass communication and cooperation in a venture such as that.
Morally speaking, the differentiation of people was a result of God imposing diversity on the people of Babel.

I agree that the racial characteristics which are evident today can be explained by geographical isolation induced by such barriers as sprawling virtually uninhabitable and difficult to cross deserts, extremely high mountain ranges, vast seemingly endless oceans, etc. However, please note that the potential variety was already within mankind's genetic code at Eden. If indeed God had not wanted such diversity to emerge he could have easily made barriers to prevent it just as he established unbreakable barriers to prevent one kind from becoming another kind via inter-kind procreation as is stated in Genesis.

Such variety potential was within the family members of Noah. In fact, prior to the flood, a period which spanned hundreds of years, such variety could already have been evident. Noah's son Ham is said to have been the progenitor of the black race and its ramifications and the word Ham is said to mean dark. Japheth was the progenitor of the white race and its various ramifications and he himself might have physically resembled his offspring. Same might have been true of Shem. In short, geographical isolation could have merely accentuated what was already there.

Now, what I do doubt is that the extremes which we see today were to happen if mankind had not been geographically isolated into groups.

As for the dehumanization of people based on skin color in the Bible. Can you please offer scriptural evidence that such a dehumanization actually was promoted? You see, I have studied the Bible most of my life and I have never come across such a biblically approved policy. True, Moses' sister and Aron complained that Moses took an Ethiopian wife. But in the Bible there is no prohibition on avoiding marriage based on race. The prohibitions are based on the moral customs of the people involved. For example, even though Israel was ancestrally related to Moab via Lot, they wee still told to avoid the Moabites due to their false worship. The same applied to the Edomites who were related to Israel via Jacobs's brother Edom, and to the Ammonites who were also related to Israel via Lot.

The warning against mixing with such groups was never racially based. It was always in reference to Israel being spiritually contaminated by the immoral practices and false worship of such religiously and morally degraded people.
 
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Inkfingers

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No confusion. Skin colour, skull shape, and body hair are arbitrary parameters. One might as well chose height, nose length, and earwax type; because they are also determined by our genes. Substitute "complexity" with "arbitrary" if you like, it's still the same conclusion; we are complex, but race is still a social construct.

I think you are misunderstanding what "arbitrary" means and using it to push your own socially constructed political agenda.

Race is real.

Racism is when we give race more validity than it deserves. That doesn't mean that race is unreal or arbitrary.
 
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greenguzzi

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I think you are misunderstanding what "arbitrary" means
Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
The parameters (skin colour etc.) are chosen by whim, not reason. Therefore they are arbitrary. By the popular definition, race is not real.
 
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Radrook

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Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
The parameters (skin colour etc.) are chosen by whim, not reason. Therefore they are arbitrary. By the popular definition, race is not real.
To me that sounds similar to saying that Pit Bulls and Chihuahuas are not real but are merely arbitrary constructs. I mean, they are obviously all dogs! So doggishness isn't the issue.

Also, the manner in which races are classified is arbitrary in what way?


 
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