Free will/predestination

Lets take the topic of "election" in OT a bit deeper.

Here I cite:

"The Purpose of Election

As far as the Old Testament doctrine of election is concerned, the emphasis is certainly not on election to individual salvation in the world to come. We cannot say that the element of individual salvation in the world to come does not appear in the New Testament, but we do need to keep the New Testament doctrine in the perspective of the Old Testament background.

The first eleven chapters of the Bible deal with the nations. Then the record moves to Abraham and the Jews. God elected Abraham. What was God's purpose in choosing Abraham out of all the nations?

• 
  The Lord had said to Abram,
  "Leave your country, your people and your father's household
  and go to the land I will show you.
  I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you;
  I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
  I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
  and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
  — Gen. 12:1-3.
  

This final statement that "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" is repeated in Genesis 22, 26 and 28. The theme is taken up in the second volume of Isaiah and then brought to its fulfillment in the New Testament (see Gal. 3:8).

God's choice of Abraham did not mean that He intended to discard all others. God chose Abraham as a means of blessing the others. The election of one was for the blessing of many. The corollary of the election of one party is not the rejection (much less the inevitable damnation) of the other party.

Let us consider God's purpose in the election of Israel at Sinai:

• 
  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine. — Ex. 19:4, 5, KJV.

In this passage God is not saying that in choosing Israel He is going to discard His interest in the world. He chooses Israel because the whole world is His. He has a saving purpose which is as wide as the world. Israel is chosen to be His instrument in that saving purpose.

God further declared to Israel, "You will be for Me a kingdom of priests" (Ex. 19:6). The primary office of the priesthood was not to offer sacrifice but to teach the oracles of God.

God delivered Israel from Egypt in order that Egypt might know that Yahweh was the Lord (see Ex. 7:4, 5). By His mighty act of election God wanted His name to be "proclaimed in all the earth" (Ex. 9:16).

As the fame of the Exodus event spread among the nations, many feared and quaked. But Rahab, though only a poor, sinful heathen, heard and believed. "By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient [perished not with them that believed not - KJV]" (Heb. 11:31). Why were the inhabitants of Jericho destroyed? Because they were arbitrarily marked as non-elect? No! They perished because they did not believe even though God's name had been proclaimed to them.

In placing the Jews in Palestine, God placed them at the crossroads of the ancient world. They were situated between the two great centers of ancient civilization—Mesopotamia to the north and Egypt to the south. God purposed to bless Israel as He blessed Abraham, so that all nations could be blessed.

• 
  Sing to the Lord a new song;
  sing to the Lord, all the earth.
  Sing to the Lord, praise His name;
  proclaim His salvation day after day.
  Declare His glory among the nations,
  His marvelous deeds among all peoples....
  Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns."
  — Ps. 96:1-3, 10.
  
  Praise the Lord, all you nations;
  extol Him, all you peoples.
  For great is His love toward us,
  and the faithfulness of the Lord endures forever.
  Praise the Lord.
  — Ps. 117.

The Jews erred because they misunderstood the purpose of election. They interpreted election selfishly as if it were their privilege to sit down in isolation and contemplate their good fortune. They thought that God's choice of them meant His rejection of all others. And they compounded their error by assuming that their election was unconditional.

When God declared His name in His judgments on Egypt, some Egyptians believed and departed from Egypt with the Israelites. Election does not mean partiality or favoritism. 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' " (Joel 2:32). "The same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on Him" (Rom. 10:12). The election of Israel did not mean the inevitable exclusion of Egypt from God's saving intent. This is made clear in the following prophecy of Isaiah:

• 
  In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, He will send them a savior and defender, and He will rescue them. So the Lord will make Himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; He will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and He will respond to their pleas and heal them.
  
  In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, Assyria My handiwork, and Israel My inheritance." — Isa. 19:19-25.

So also, when Paul cites Malachi 1:2, 3 ("'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated' "—Rom. 9:13), he is not declaring that Edom is outside God's saving intent. Just as Isaiah speaks of Egypt as being embraced in God's purpose, so Amos includes Edom in God's saving purpose (Amos 9:11,12).

Israel, however, did not understand or accept the divine purpose in her election. Elijah thought that because Israel failed, God's covenant purpose was in jeopardy. But Isaiah, like Paul after him, saw further than Elijah. Isaiah was able to see that even the stumbling of Israel was taken up in the purpose of God. The seventy-year captivity was proof of that, for God did with His people in captivity what they failed to do in their prosperity. Through His dealings with His people, His name was declared among the nations both in captivity and restoration.

God wanted to bring salvation to the Gentiles through Israel's faithfulness. But when Israel refused to be faithful, God could still bring salvation to the Gentiles through her failure. This is the divine mystery of God's sovereignty which Paul perceives in Romans 11—a mystery of saving love—which leads him to conclude his presentation of election with a hymn of praise:

• 
  For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.
  Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
  
  How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!
  "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
  Or who has been His counselor?"
  "Who has ever given to God,
  that God should repay him?"
  For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
  To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
  — Rom. 11:32-36.

It is in the context of captivity to Babylon and the coming deliverance that Isaiah reminds Israel of her election. And in this he states more clearly and fully the purpose of her election:

• 
  "And the glory of the Lord will be revealed,
  and all mankind together will see it.
  For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.....
  
  See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power,
  and His arm rules for Him.
  See, His reward is with Him,
  and His recompense accompanies Him.
  — Isa. 40:5, 10.
  
  "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord,
  "and My servant whom I have chosen,
  so that you may know and believe Me
  and understand that I am He.
  Before Me no god was formed,
  nor will there be one after Me." . . .
  
  . . . the people I formed for Myself
  that they may proclaim My praise . . .
  
  "I have revealed and saved and proclaimed —
  I, and not some foreign god among you.
  You are My witnesses," declares the Lord,
  "that I am God."
  — Isa. 43:10, 21, 12.
  
  "Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
  Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
  You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me?
  No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.
  — Isa. 44:8.
  
  "Gather together and come; assemble,
  you fugitives from the nations.
  Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,
  who pray to gods that cannot save.
  Declare what is to be, present it—
  let them take counsel together.
  Who foretold this long ago,
  who declared it from the distant past?
  Was it not I, the Lord?
  And there is no God apart from Me,
  a righteous God and a Savior;
  there is none but Me.
  "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
  for I am God, and there is no other."
  — Isa. 45:20-22.
  

Israel—blind and sinful—was to be a witness of God's saving power to the intent that all nations might hear about it. Isaiah says more about the salvation of the nations than does any other Bible prophet. And it is in the context of the deliverance of God's people from their captivity:

• 
  "Surely you will summon nations you know not,
  and nations that do not know you will hasten to you,
  because of the Lord your God,
  the Holy One of Israel,
  for He has endowed you with splendor."
  — Isa. 55:5.
  
  "Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
  See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples,
  but the Lord rises upon you and His glory appears over you.
  Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn...."
  
  "Surely the islands look to Me; in the lead are the ships of Tarshish,
  bringing your sons from afar, with their silver and gold,
  to the honor of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel,
  for He has endowed you with splendor."
  — Isa. 60:1-3, 9.
  
  . . . and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
  to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes,
  the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
  and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.
  They will be called oaks of righteousness,
  a planting of the Lord for the display of His splendor.
  — Isa. 61:3.
  
  "I will set a sign among them,
  and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—
  to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece,
  and to the distant islands that have not heard of My fame or seen My glory.
  They will proclaim My glory among the nations." — Isa. 6:19.
  

Beside these beautiful scriptures we might place Zechariah 8:23:

• 
  Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
  In those days it shall come to pass,
  that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
  even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
  We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.—KJV.

Along with this theme of election Isaiah dwells on the servant theme. Israel was elected as Yahweh's servant. The Lord did not desire their service for Himself but for the benefit of the nations. The Jews often thought that the nations existed for their benefit, though they were called of God to serve the nations. One nation was elect for the blessing of all. Isaiah merely enlarges on the purpose of God's covenant with Abraham, a purpose that the chosen people generally failed to grasp. Joseph is a good example of the purpose of election. God chose him in order that he might save his brothers. This was the election of the one for the salvation of the many."

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

In the first place, it says nothing about "Israel's election to serve God". They were elected because of God's promise.

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I a speaking of what Paul says in Romans 9-11. I understand Abraham was chosen because he believed God. Romans 9-11 has nothing to do with the Election to Heaven, READ IT CAREFULLY. It is speaking about the Romans (Gentiles) being elected to take the Gospel unto the world, and Israel being rejected, for a time, until the Gentiles times had come and passed.

Any logical person understand God is a just God, and if He created some for heaven and some for hell on purpose He would be an UNJUST GOD............We chose our own paths, God does not chose for us, therefore there is no predestination.

It simple logic. We label our just God unjust by tagging him with an unjust tag.

Revealing Times said:

Any logical person understand God is a just God, and if He created some for heaven and some for hell on purpose He would be an UNJUST GOD............We chose our own paths, God does not chose for us, therefore there is no predestination.

It simple logic. We label our just God unjust by tagging him with an unjust tag.

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This seems logical to you only because you are applying the ethics of our contemporary, Western, societies to the doings of God. A little reflection should relieve you of that mistake.

Albion said:

This seems logical to you only because you are applying the ethics of our contemporary, Western, societies to the doings of God. A little reflection should relieve you of that mistake.

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Wrong, I am applying Gods own ethics, He is perfect, He can not be unjust. He also can not lie, and the bible says God is not willing that any should perish. Men however are often confused. That is the reason the don't understand Romans 9-11,

Is that the sum total of what you're basing your conclusion on--your interpretation of that one verse?

I am going to show what Romans chapters 9-11 means in reality, not by the Calvinist Credo.

Israel's Rejection of Christ ( Romans Chapter 9 )
1 I speak the truth in Christ-I am not lying; my conscience is testifying to me with the Holy Spirit-
2 that I have intense sorrow and continual anguish in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my countrymen by physical descent.
4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises.
5 The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

{{ Paul is writing to the Romans, he is trying to tell hem, do not think you are better than Israel, do not think you are Gods only choice, God chose you because Israel rejected Him, BUT.....God is not finished with Israel, he will save all Israel and Graft them back in so do not PUFF yourself up and think you are all that. Paul says my Brethren the Jew was chosen to bring everything forth by God (ELECTED TO SERVICE) the adoption, covenants, Law, the Temple where God Dwelt, the Promises, and the Messiah came forth from them. }}

God's Gracious Election of Israel
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called.
8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed.
9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.
10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather
11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election might stand,
12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger.
13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

{{ Paul is telling the Romans why Israel lost Gods Favor, they did not BELIEVE (They could not see God in Jesus, the Messiah, made manifest in flesh) because they were beholden more to the Law than to God. Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and in Issac was the promise of the coming seed (Jesus) not in Esau, DO YOU GET IT ? Paul is showing how He chooses whom He will TO SERVE, this is about Election to Service. God chose Issac over Esau, Paul is not referencing Salvation here, he is referencing SERVICE TO GOD !! Esau was of Abraham also. But God chose whom He chose, for Service unto him. This has nothing to do with the Election to Salvation. The OLDER will serve the YOUNGER........Its about Service, not Salvation. Take verse 13 for instance, this is why so many people do nit grasp the Bible or Gods intentions......Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated...........Do you guys really think God said He hated Esau an unborn child ? No, that is not what it means at all, bad translation, put it in its proper context like this..........The Hebrew word sane' is used. It usually means hate, but in Hebrew, with only 3700 words vs. English' 500,000 words, you have to find the CONTEXT. The word is used as TURN AGAINST twice, and as UNLOVED Seven times. So God Loved Jacob and therefore he what ? UNLOVED Esau, or CHOSE Jacob over Esau. God did not hate Esau. He chose Jacob for Service. He did not condemn Esau to hell. }}

God's Selection Is Just
14 What should we say then ? Is there injustice with God ? Absolutely not !
15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
18 So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.
19 You will say to me, therefore, "Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?"
20 But who are you-anyone who talks back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"
21 Or has the potter no right over His clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?
22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
23 And [what if] He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory-
24 on us whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25 As He also says in Hosea: I will call "Not-My-People," "My-People," and she who is "Unloved," "Beloved."
26 And it will be in the place where they were told, you are not My people, there they will be called sons of the living God.
27 But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel's sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved;
28 for the Lord will execute His sentence completely and decisively on the earth.
29 And just as Isaiah predicted: If the Lord of Hosts had not left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.

{{ Even with Pharaoh we see this is about Service to God, in Genesis 33:15-19 Moses was asking God if He was going to go before him. And God told him, you have found favor in my sight and your people have found grace BUT WHY ? Because Abraham BELIEVED !! Thus the Seed was Promised, and the Seed (Jesus) was to save us from our Sins. This is why Moses found Favor with God but Pharaoh didn't. There is a Reason God Selected Israel to bring forth the Messiah and a reason God Selected the Gentiles to bring forth the good news of His Son Jesus Christ to the whole World. He selected both for a service in His own way, to save the WHOLE WORLD whosoever would call upon His name.}}

Israel's Present State
30 What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness-namely the righteousness that comes from faith.
31 But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved the law.
32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
33 As it is written: Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over, and a rock to trip over, yet the one who believes on Him will not be put to shame.

{{ So Israel lost their Election (To Service) because they did not pursue it by Faith, but by the Law. They Stumbled over the Law and lost sight of the fact that it was accounted as Righteousness unto Abraham because he BELIEVED GOD !! God took the Election to Service from Israel and gave it to the Gentiles !! To provoke them to Jealousy Paul says, so that they might one day be Saved. }}


Righteousness by Faith Alone ( Romans Chapter 10 )
1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God concerning them is for their salvation!
2 I can testify about them that they have zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 Because they disregarded the righteousness from God and attempted to establish their own righteousness, they have not submitted to God's righteousness.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: The one who does these things will live by them.
6 But the righteousness that comes from faith speaks like this: Do not say in your heart, "Who will go up to heaven?" that is, to bring Christ down
7 or, "Who will go down into the abyss?" that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, No one who believes on Him will be put to shame,
12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him.
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Israel's Rejection of the Message
14 But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How welcome are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
18 But I ask, "Did they not hear?" Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.
19 But I ask, "Did Israel not understand?" First, Moses said: I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that lacks understanding.
20 And Isaiah says boldly: I was found by those who were not looking for Me; I revealed Myself to those who were not asking for Me.
21 But to Israel he says: All day long I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and defiant people.

{{ The Reason Israel lost there Election to Serve God was that they Rejected God, that is quite Obvious, they chose the Law over God. So the Gentiles were chosen to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all the world. Has not Israel been blinded by God for 2000 Years for their Rejection of God/Jesus ? They can not serve God while they are blind, that was left up to the Gentiles, until we are Raptured home, then they will be called into Service again. And the 144,000 will be Great men of God. }}


Israel's Rejection Not Total
1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the Elijah section-how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets, torn down Your altars; and I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life!
4 But what was God's reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal.
5 In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened,
8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day
9 And David says: Let their feasting become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually.

{{ God is not finished with Israel, He will protect them in the Wilderness after they have accepted the Messiah, and He will raise up 144,000 to Serve Him. }}

Israel's Rejection Not Final
11 I ask, then, have they stumbled so as to fall ? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them.
15 For if their being rejected is world reconciliation, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them, and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree,
18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag-you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you-if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these-the natural branches-be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.
28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers,
29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. ( Gods calling can not be taken back )
30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience,
31 so they too have now disobeyed, [resulting] in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy.
32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

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The gist of the Three Chapters is God Chose (Elected) Israel to serve Him, but they Rejected Him in Favor of the Law. So God then chose a foreign Bride.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

So Paul warns the Romans, do not get full of yourselves thinking you are better than my fellow countrymen Israel, they lost their Election to Service or standing with God because of their UNBELIEF. Righteousness is by Faith Alone, but Israel rejected this in favor of living under the Law, so in essence they rejected the message of Jesus Christ. But then Paul tells the Romans, Israel's Rejection is not total, for God will save all Israel, they will be grafted back in, (after the Church is Raptured and they accept the Messiah) and they will again serve God, via the 144,000.


This is clearly about Israel being elected to serve God, rejecting God, who then chose the Gentiles to serve Him and Blinded Israel unto the truth until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, then they will be Elected to Serve once again.

Revealing Times said:

I a speaking of what Paul says in Romans 9-11. I understand Abraham was chosen because he believed God. Romans 9-11 has nothing to do with the Election to Heaven, READ IT CAREFULLY. It is speaking about the Romans (Gentiles) being elected to take the Gospel unto the world, and Israel being rejected, for a time, until the Gentiles times had come and passed.

Any logical person understand God is a just God, and if He created some for heaven and some for hell on purpose He would be an UNJUST GOD............We chose our own paths, God does not chose for us, therefore there is no predestination.

It simple logic. We label our just God unjust by tagging him with an unjust tag.

Click to expand...

So, God is not allowed to show mercy on whomever He pleases?

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." -Rom. 9:15 (KJV)

In all that Moses performed in front of Pharaoh, show me where God had mercy on him.

In fact, what does scripture say about Pharaoh?

"Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." -Rom. 9:17 (KJV)

Revealing Times said:

We chose our own paths, God does not chose for us

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That is not what I read in the OT.

I can think of at least two instances where you are wrong.

"And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." -Ex. 4:21 (KJV)

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so." -Ex. 14:4 (KJV)

Revealing Times said:

therefore there is no predestination.

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Have you ever read to see what the word (predestination) means in Rom. 8:29?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Revealing Times said:

{{ Paul is writing to the Romans, he is trying to tell hem, do not think you are better than Israel, do not think you are Gods only choice, God chose you because Israel rejected Him, BUT.....God is not finished with Israel, he will save all Israel and Graft them back in so do not PUFF yourself up and think you are all that. Paul says my Brethren the Jew was chosen to bring everything forth by God (ELECTED TO SERVICE) the adoption, covenants, Law, the Temple where God Dwelt, the Promises, and the Messiah came forth from them. }}

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Since when has God been through with Israel?

What was it Paul said about when he witnesses to Jews?

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" -1 Cor. 9:20 (KJV)

I'm sorry, I can't see it the way you present it.

Revealing Times said:

{{ Paul is telling the Romans why Israel lost Gods Favor, they did not BELIEVE (They could not see God in Jesus, the Messiah, made manifest in flesh) because they were beholden more to the Law than to God. Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and in Issac was the promise of the coming seed (Jesus) not in Esau, DO YOU GET IT ? Paul is showing how He chooses whom He will TO SERVE, this is about Election to Service. God chose Issac over Esau, Paul is not referencing Salvation here, he is referencing SERVICE TO GOD !! Esau was of Abraham also. But God chose whom He chose, for Service unto him. This has nothing to do with the Election to Salvation. The OLDER will serve the YOUNGER........Its about Service, not Salvation. Take verse 13 for instance, this is why so many people do nit grasp the Bible or Gods intentions......Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated...........Do you guys really think God said He hated Esau an unborn child ? No, that is not what it means at all, bad translation, put it in its proper context like this..........The Hebrew word sane' is used. It usually means hate, but in Hebrew, with only 3700 words vs. English' 500,000 words, you have to find the CONTEXT. The word is used as TURN AGAINST twice, and as UNLOVED Seven times. So God Loved Jacob and therefore he what ? UNLOVED Esau, or CHOSE Jacob over Esau. God did not hate Esau. He chose Jacob for Service. He did not condemn Esau to hell. }}

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Matthew Henry comments:

"The case of Jacob and Esau (v. 10-13), which is much stronger, to show that the carnal seed of Abraham were not, as such, interested in the promise, but only such of them as God in sovereignty had appointed. There was a previous difference between Ishmael and Isaac, before Ishmael was cast out: Ishmael was the son of the bond-woman, born long before Isaac, was of a fierce and rugged disposition, and had mocked or persecuted Isaac, to all which it might be supposed God had regard when he appointed Abraham to cast him out. But, in the case of Jacob and Esau, it was neither so nor so, they were both the sons of Isaac by one mother; they were conceived hex henos—by one conception; hex henos koitou, so some copies read it. The difference was made between them by the divine counsel before they were born, or had done any good or evil. Both lay struggling alike in their mother's womb, when it was said, The elder shall serve the younger, without respect to good or bad works done or foreseen, that the purpose of God according to election might stand—that this great truth may be established, that God chooses some and refuses others as a free agent, by his own absolute and sovereign will, dispensing his favours or withholding them as he pleases. This difference that was put between Jacob and Esau he further illustrates by a quotation from Mal. i. 2, 3, where it is said, not of Jacob and Esau the person, but the Edomites and Israelites their posterity, Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated. The people of Israel were taken into the covenant of peculiarity, had the land of Canaan given them, were blessed with the more signal appearances of God for them in special protections, supplies, and deliverances, while the Edomites were rejected, had no temple, altar, priests, nor prophets—no such particular care taken of them nor kindness shown to them. Such a difference did God put between those two nations, that both descended from the loins of Abraham and Isaac, as at first there was a difference put between Jacob and Esau, the distinguishing heads of those two nations. So that all this choosing and refusing was typical, and intended to shadow forth some other election and rejection. (1.) Some understand it of the election and rejection of conditions or qualifications. As God chose Isaac and Jacob, and rejected Ishmael and Esau, so he might and did choose faith to be the condition of salvation and reject the works of the law. Thus Arminius understands it, De rejectis et assumptis talibus, certa qualitate notatis—Concerning such as are rejected and such as are chosen, being distinguished by appropriate qualities; so John Goodwin. But this very much strains the scripture; for the apostle speaks all along of persons, he has mercy on whom (he does not say on what kind of people) he will have mercy, besides that against this sense those two objections (v. 14, 19) do not at all arise, and his answer to them concerning God's absolute sovereignty over the children of men is not at all pertinent if no more be meant than his appointing the conditions of salvation. (2.) Others understand it of the election and rejection of particular person—some loved, and others hated, from eternity. But the apostle speaks of Jacob and Esau, not in their own persons, but as ancestors—Jacob the people, and Esau the people; nor does God condemn any, or decree so to do, merely because he will do it, without any reason taken from their own deserts. (3.) Others therefore understand it of the election and rejection of people considered complexly. His design is to justify God, and his mercy and truth, in calling the Gentiles, and taking them into the church, and into covenant with himself, while he suffered the obstinate part of the Jews to persist in unbelief, and so to un-church themselves—thus hiding from their eyes the things that belonged to their peace. The apostle's reasoning for the explication and proof of this is, however, very applicable to, and, no doubt (as is usual in scripture) was intended for the clearing of the methods of God's grace towards particular person, for the communication of saving benefits bears some analogy to the communication of church-privileges. The choosing of Jacob the younger, and preferring him before Esau the elder (so crossing hands), were to intimate that the Jews, though the natural seed of Abraham, and the first-born of the church, should be laid aside; and the Gentiles, who were as the younger brother, should be taken in in their stead, and have the birthright and blessing. The Jews, considered as a body politic, a nation and people, knit together by the bond and cement of the ceremonial law, the temple and priesthood, the centre of their unity, had for many ages been the darlings and favourites of heaven, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, dignified and distinguished by God's miraculous appearances among them and for them. Now that the gospel was preached, and Christian churches were planted, this national body was thereby abandoned, their church-polity dissolved; and Christian churches (and in process of time Christian nations), embodied in like manner, become their successors in the divine favour, and those special privileges and protections which were the products of that favour. To clear up the justice of God in this great dispensation is the scope of the apostle here."

Link

Revealing Times said:

{{ So Israel lost their Election (To Service) because they did not pursue it by Faith, but by the Law. They Stumbled over the Law and lost sight of the fact that it was accounted as Righteousness unto Abraham because he BELIEVED GOD !! God took the Election to Service from Israel and gave it to the Gentiles !! To provoke them to Jealousy Paul says, so that they might one day be Saved. }}

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But were they not being saved? That is what Paul said.

Revealing Times said:

This is clearly about Israel being elected to serve God, rejecting God, who then chose the Gentiles to serve Him and Blinded Israel unto the truth until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled, then they will be Elected to Serve once again.

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Here again, God has never been through with Israel.

In fact, there are still many Jews being saved to this day.

Sorry, I just don't see it your way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Revealing Times said:

God chose you because Israel rejected Him, BUT.....God is not finished with Israel, he will save all Israel and Graft them back in so do not PUFF yourself up and think you are all that.

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My problem with this is "God will save all Israel".

If we take this "as is" then we might as well agree that there is no need to witness, or preach to Jews.

And there are some well known men who have adopted this.

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith...In fact, trying to convert Jews is a;waste of time, he said. "The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people." They (already) have a faith structure; Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Bahai, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity."

This same person also said:

"Inasmuch as God has blinded them to the identity of Messiah, targeting the Jewish people for mass evangelism is fruitless."

San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism, Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec. 6, pg. 1

We also see:

"Dispensationalism says that at the end of the church age the Church will be raptured out, and God will once again begin to deal with national Israel. During the Tribulation many Jews will be saved and the Millennium will be a time of Jewish dominance. They say that "And so all Israel will be saved" refers to Israel being restored as a nation. John MacArthur writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved. You know he wanted to say that. And please, there is no way to interpret that other than as the nation Israel and be fair with the text...no way. It cannot refer to a Jewish remnant, it is set in contrast to the doctrine of the remnant, which has already been given. What he is saying is there has always been a remnant, and there's always been a group of Jews redeemed, but some day the nation will be redeemed. Any other viewpoint does terrible injustice to the text..."

There is nothing in this text about "national" Israel. And as we have said those who are not chosen are hardened, and that is the end of it. Many commentators see an insoluble contradiction between chapters 9 and 11. This is because they see chapter 9 insists that salvation is promised only for spiritual Israel, but they see chapter 11 arguing that ethnic Israel will be saved. Yes, this would be a contradiction if Paul was in fact saying that all ethnic Israel would be saved., but he is not saying that. It is only a remnant that is saved. Other scholars, I use that term loosely, have suggested that Paul did not realize what he would write in chapter 11 when he wrote chapter 9. As you can see making "all Israel" mean ethnic national Israel causes huge problems with this text.

Some scholars also say that the promise of salvation to "all ethnic Israel" contradicts what Paul says about the Jews in:

who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost. 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 NASB
The non-chosen are hardened and will receive wrath.

After all the time Paul spent in Romans teaching that nationality doesn't matter, it is faith that matters; does he now contradict all he has said and say that someday nationality will be everything? No, he does not!

John Piper writes, "I don't think the meaning of Israel changes between verse 25 and 26. The hardened Israel (the nation as a whole) will be the saved Israel (the nation as a whole)." First of all, the hardened Israel was only part of the nation and the saved have always been the remnant. Secondly, if you don't think the meaning of Israel changes between two verses, you don't understand Paul's opening statement to this whole argument:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; Romans 9:6 NASB

Paul opened his argument with a clear signal that he was redefining "Israel."

As far as the Who, I see "all Israel" here as referring to the remnant of the house of Israel and the remnant of the house of Judah and all the believing Gentiles. The "all" here is the all of:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; Romans 10:12 NASB

This is "all Israel", it is all who call upon Him, it is all who share the faith of Abraham:

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, Romans 4:16 NASB"

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

Revealing Times said:

{{ God is not finished with Israel, He will protect them in the Wilderness after they have accepted the Messiah, and He will raise up 144,000 to Serve Him. }}

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It is my understanding that the 144,000 are witnesses during the Tribulation period.

"Who are the 144,000 in the book of Revelation?
In Revelation 7.9-14, John saw a great worldwide revival commencing around the world (during the Tribulation). John wrote, "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed" (Revelation 7:4).
These 144,00 are Jews, true witnesses of God and will be saved during the Tribulation. They will go out all over the world and bring the "great multitude" as mentioned in verse 9 to salvation in Christ because of their witness. During the Tribulation there will be so much fear that many who would not listen to believers before the Rapture and before the Tribulation began will finally listen to these anointed Jewish evangelists. God will protect these Jews so they can take the salvation message to the lost."

Link

"The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israel but are sealed OUT OF Israel. The Bible tells us these men from the 12 tribes of Israel who will be evangelists to the world during the Tribulation period.

The genealogical background of the 144,000 is Hebrew Rev. 7 tell us clearly that they will be totally Jewish in origin because they are called “children of Israel”. The scripture tells us plainly that there will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

The importance of the number 12 is a consistent one. In Mt.10:2 Jesus picks 12 men that will be evangelists to Israel (in contradistinction, Jesus seals 12,000 men from 12 tribes to go to the world). Acts 1:21-26, the 11 apostles recognize that Judas must be replaced to keep this consistent number of 12.

Matt 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

In heaven the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles are recognized. Rev. 21:12-14: “Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

Of the New Jerusalem the number is kept as its theme:

“The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel” (Rev. 21:16-17).

The 144,000 will be saved men that will give faithful witness to Jesus Christ- they are His Jewish witnesses in the Tribulation period.

These are later referred to (Revelation 14:4) as the “firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”. They will be the first to come to Christ as Saviour in the Tribulation period.

It will be these evangelists that will go throughout the world preaching the gospel fulfilling what Jesus said “and then the end will come.”

Link

"2. The 144,000 Jewish Witnesses
Sometime during the first part of the Tribulation or possibly right at the beginning of it, God is going to choose and mark 144,000 Jewish people out of the 12 main tribes of Israel.

These 144,000 Jews will receive some kind of mark on their forehead from God. As a result of this mark and seal, the judgments that will fall upon the earth during the 7 year Tribulation will not touch or harm them.

God also calls these 144,000 the “firstfruits to God and the Lamb.” The Lamb is Jesus. God is making a statement that these 144,000 will be the first set of Jews to get saved and accept Jesus as their true Messiah.

Though Scripture does not specifically state that these 144,000 Jews will actually be witnessing to others, the conclusion among many students of Bible Prophecy is that they definitely will be witnessing and preaching the Gospel to others just due to the fact that they have now been saved and will physically be protected from all the judgments that will be hitting the earth during this time.

It is only logical to conclude that God will use these 144,000 Jewish witnesses to preach the Gospel, as they will now have the power of the Holy Spirit operating in them to be able to preach. I seriously doubt if God will just have them lying around and doing nothing, especially with the Church having been possibly raptured before they are sealed and come forth.

God is going to need as many people as possible to be preaching, witnessing, and getting people saved, especially if the main body of believers are no longer on the earth to preach and witness to others.

1. Here are the two main verses from Scripture that will tell us about these 144,000 Jewish witnesses.

“After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.

And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.” (Revelation 7:1-4)

The rest of this verse then goes on to state the 12 main tribes of Israel and the 12,000 that will be taken out of each of them to total up to the 144,000.

2. This next verse tells us they will be the first fruits of the Jewish people to accept Jesus as their true Messiah.

“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand having His Father’s name written on their foreheads … These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile, for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:1-4)

Now what comes next is a real interesting twist. God is going to allow, for the first time ever, an angel to preach the Gospel to whoever is left on the earth during the Tribulation."

Link

This should suffice.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

So, God is not allowed to show mercy on whomever He pleases?

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God will have Mercy on all that call upon His name, thus He will have Mercy upon those who Beat their Breast and cry out, I am a sinner o Lord, Have Mercy upon me. TO SAY OTHERWISE is to deny what Jesus said, I have come that all men might be saved. The Key is, you must ask God for Mercy, this isn't rocket science, its better. SMILE.

DeaconDean said:

That is not what I read in the OT.

I can think of at least two instances where you are wrong.

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I have studied this in depth, and the English Translations are woefully inadequate. Also in Rev. 17:17 it says God placed it in their hearts to do His will (They Destroy False Religion or the Harlot, which God has Judged) but God did not make them hate False Religion, He just allowed their evil hearts to follows its own evil course, they want to destroy all Religions, so the Anti-Christ can be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! Likewise, the Pharaoh was given his own hearts desire. God dosn't make our choices for us. The English interpretations usually do not give the greatest expressions. For instance this can mean fasten ones heat, set ones heart towards.....Towards that which is in his own heart, God doesn't make our choices. If He did how would we be required to stand trail before God for our choices ? It is just plain logic.

DeaconDean said:

Since when has God been through with Israel?

What was it Paul said about when he witnesses to Jews?

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I am telling you what Paul was writing to the Romans, not that God has ever said He was through with the Jewish peoples, but Paul clearly mentions this in Romans 11, so he felt that the Romans were getting puffed up, and thinking of themselves as better than the Jews who rejected Jesus, Paul tells them to cease these thoughts, for God will graft Israel back in one day.

DeaconDean said:

My problem with this is "God will save all Israel".

If we take this "as is" then we might as well agree that there is no need to witness, or preach to Jews.

And there are some well known men who have adopted this.

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Well you know Paul is quoting from Isaiah chapter 59 in Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

All Israel being Saved has nothing to do with every Jew being Saved. But it is referring to the fact that God will do as Daniel 9:24-27 says, he will bring ISRAEL as a NATION unto Repentance at a certain point in the future. ALL ISRAEL, means God turns the Heart of the Nation back unto Him. We understand that Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God before the Great and terrible day of the Lord.

DeaconDean said:

It is my understanding that the 144,000 are witnesses during the Tribulation period.

"Who are the 144,000 in the book of Revelation?
In Revelation 7.9-14, John saw a great worldwide revival commencing around the world (during the Tribulation). John wrote, "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed" (Revelation 7:4).
These 144,00 are Jews, true witnesses of God and will be saved during the Tribulation. They will go out all over the world and bring the "great multitude" as mentioned in verse 9 to salvation in Christ because of their witness. During the Tribulation there will be so much fear that many who would not listen to believers before the Rapture and before the Tribulation began will finally listen to these anointed Jewish evangelists. God will protect these Jews so they can take the salvation message to the lost."

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The Church is in Heaven during the Tribulation. The 144,000 is servants of God, they have the name of God written in their foreheads, they are virgins, God is married to Israel, so it is assumed they are Jews.

Romans 9:6 answers the question quite well.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" -Rom. 9:6 (KJV)

So when it is said that "all Israel shall be saved",:

"for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel; that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob, whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation, of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people; they are not all , "the Israel", by way of emphasis, as in Psalm 25:22, or the "Israel of God", Galatians 6:16, the Israel whom Jehovah the Father has chosen for a peculiar people; which Christ has redeemed from all their iniquities; which the Spirit of God calls with an holy calling, by special grace, to special privileges; the seed of Israel who are justified in Christ, whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away, that when they are sought for they shall not be found, and who are saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: or in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh", 1 Corinthians 10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed", as Nathanael was, John 1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly; they have not all principles of grace, uprightness, and sincerity in them: now to these spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham, were the word of God, the promises of God concerning spiritual and eternal things made, and upon these they had their effect; and therefore it could not be said that the word of God had taken none effect; though the whole body of Israel after the flesh were cut off and rejected. Some copies, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "who are Israelites"; and the Ethiopic version, "they are not all Israel who came out of Egypt"."

John Gill Exposition of the Whole Bible, Romans 9:6

We become Israel when we become saved. Spiritual Israel.

Therefore, "all Israel shall be saved" includes "Spiritual Israel".

God Bless

Till all are one.

Douglas Moo writes:

"We now return to the only quotation in the passage that relates to the inclusion of the Gentiles: the use of Hos 2:23 and 1:10 in 9:25-26. We find here perhaps the most striking of the shifts of application that we encounter in the OT quotations that Paul uses to validate the inclusion of the Gentiles in the messianic people of God. Ross Wagner calls it “a radical rereading.”

He quotes freely from Hos 2:23 (MT and LXX 2:25) in v. 25 and then verbatim from the LXX version of Hos 1:10a (MT and LXX 2:1b) in v. 26. Paul changes the sequence of the verses, reverses the order of the two clauses he cites from 2:23, and uses wording different from both the LXX
and MT. Thus Paul: “’I will call them “my people” who are not my people [2:23c];and I will call here “my loved one” who is not my loved one’ [2:23b], and ‘In the very place where it was said to them “You are
not my people,” they will be called “children of the living God [1:10].”’”

These differences have given rise to the suggestion that Paul has taken these quotations, with perhaps the others in vv. 25-29, from a catena
already in existence. This is certainly possible, since 1 Pet 2:10 attests the popularity of this language from Hosea in the early church. Paul does modify the text in several ways, the most notable being his use of the verb kale,w, “I will call,” in place of the more generic verb, “I will say,” of both the Hebrew and Greek. This is almost certainly Paul’s own change, since
it matches exactly the point for which he adduces the quotations (cf. “call” in v.24). By reversing the order of the clauses in his quotation of Hos 2:23, Paul is able to put this verb at the beginning of his composite quotation from Hosea. This same verb also comes at the end of the quotation—”they shall be called sons of the living God”—indicating clearly where Paul’s stress lies.

But a potentially more serious instance of what seems to be arbitrary hermeneutics on Paul’s part is his application of these Hosea texts to the calling of Gentiles. For the prophet Hosea is predicting a renewal of God’s mercy toward the rebellious northern tribes of Israel, or perhaps, toward Israel as a whole: those whom God rejected and named lo-ruhamah, “not pitied,” and lo-ami, “not my people” (the symbolic names given to Hosea’s children [1:6-9]) are again shown mercy and adopted again as God’s people.

Interpreters have sought to get around this difficulty by arguing that Hosea’s prophecy includes the Gentiles. But, however much one might want to justify this conclusion theologically, there is no exegetical evidence for it. Others avoid the diffi culty by arguing that Paul applies these passages to the calling of the Jews rather than the Gentiles. But the chiastic structure of the passage that we noted above is against it, and the explicit mention of Israel in the introduction to the Isaiah quotations in v. 27 implies a change of subject. Other apologists for the apostle’s hermeneutics think that Paul may imply an analogy: God’s calling of Gentiles operates on the same principle as God’s promised renewal of the ten northern tribes. But Paul requires more than an analogy to establish from Scripture justification for God’s calling of Gentiles to be his people."

Douglas Moo, Paul's Universalizing Hermeneutics in Romans, pp. 69-71

http://www.sbts.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2010/07/sbjt_113_fall07-moo.pdf

God Bless

Till all are one.

To this, I add:

"Who is NOT Israel?

One of the most convincing passages for defining who is NOT Israel comes to us from Paul in Romans 2:28, "For he is not a Jew (Israel) who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that of the flesh" Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, tells us that being a Jew has nothing to do with outward appearances or ceremonies.

A.W. Pink comments on this passage, "What could be plainer than that? In the light of such a Scripture, is it not passing strange that there are today those-boasting loudly of their orthodoxy and bitterly condemning all who differ-who insist that the name 'Jew' belongs only to the natural descendants of Jacob..." The great Presbyterian commentator Matthew Poole states, "He is not a Jew; a right or true Jew, who is heir of the promise made to the fathers, that is one outwardly..."

In fact, this passage shines light on the statement in the gospel of John, chapter 1 vs. 12-13. One must understand that the title "children of God" was a name given to the saints of old (i.e. Old Testament Israel, Ex. 4:22; Deut. 14:1; Is. 1:2-4; 63:8; Jer. 31:9; Hos 11:1). In this passage, John declares, "But as many as received Him, He gave to them the right to become children of God, to those who believe on His name-who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God".

Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown comment that this statement does away with the arrogance of the Jews of Christ's day by informing them that to be a child of God had nothing to do with natural descent, nor of supposed "superior human descent," not of man in any way. To be a true "Jew" or "Israelite" never meant that you were such because of where you were born or to whom you were born, save God Himself.

In Romans 9:6, Paul records these revealing words, "...for not all those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham (natural descendants) are they all children (of Abraham or God)."

Dr. Charles Hodge in his commentary states, "...the promise was not addressed to the mere natural descendants of Abraham. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel, i.e. all the natural descendants of the patriarch are not the true people of God..., All descendants from the patriarch Jacob called Israel, are not the true people of God; (in the same way) all who are in the visible church (who are members of a local congregation) do not belong to the true invisible church."

Who is True Israel?

Paul answers the above question in Romans 2:29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but God"

Matthew Henry comments, "Assemblies that worship God in spirit and in truth, are the Israel of God" Matthew Poole states." He is a right and true Jew, an Israelite indeed...that worships God in Spirit, rejoices in Christ Jesus...Such are the (true) circumcision and Jew. A true Jew is one who has been circumcised in his heart, i.e. born-again, John 3:6, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

In God's covenantal promise to Abram he asked God to give him a seed to be heir to his estate. God responded by not only promising Abram a child, but also adding "...look toward heaven, and count the stars, if thou be able to number them: and He (God) said unto him, so shall they seed be. And he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness",

Paul, in the Epistle to the Galatians chapter three explains, "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same ARE the children of Abraham." He elaborates, "So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Verse sixteen Paul continues, "Now to Abraham and his SEED were the promises (of the covenant) made." Verse twenty-six adds, "For ye are all the children of God by faith." The chapter ends with this statement, "There is neither Jew (natural) nor Greek (natural) there is neither bond nor free, their is neither male nor female: for ye are all one (not two) in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's SEED, and heirs according to the promise (covenant)." i.e., the true children of Abraham.

Matthew Poole comments on this last passage, "Lest these Galatians should be discouraged, because the promise was made to Abraham and his seed, since they were not the seed (natural) of Abraham; Paul tells them, if they were Christ's, then they ARE the seed of Abraham, that seed to which the promise was made; and though they were not heirs of Abraham's according to the flesh, yet heirs according to the promise." Needless to say, the third chapter of Galatians is pretty self explanatory, yet there are those who still want to insist that God has two separate people: Old Testament Israel and the Church.

CONCLUSION

"Racial Israelites" who disobeyed God, by rejecting Christ, have had the light removed from them. They are not Jews in the true sense of the word. Whatever former blessing they may have had by natural descent has been given to the church. In other words, those who are "Jews" by race are not true Jews at all in God's eyes.

The Church of Jesus Christ (by no means does this imply a denomination) is/was and always shall be the Israel of God! This group consists of both believing natural Jews and Gentiles; both Old and New Testament saints.

The Church is Israel. This does not mean that the Church replaced Israel, nor does it mean that a natural Jew cannot be grafted back into the true Israel. They can, but only by bending a knee to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. God established Abraham and promised to bless his seed and all those who believe like Abraham. God reckons their faith as righteousness. They become children of the promise given to Abraham, the children of God.

The covenant carries with it a series of blessings and curses. Because dispensationalism does not acknowledge the covenant that God made with (true) Israel, the church is reaping the curses of the covenant found throughout the Word of God, (Hosea 4:6 cross reference with Deut 6:4). Let us understand that those who believe are Israel, then let us seek out God's Word concerning what He expects of a covenant people and obey with all our hearts, with all our souls and with all our strength. Then maybe we can find true revival and reformation again!"

Not All of Israel is Israel, Greg Bahnsen

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

I also add:

"Paul's Mystery


A fLU(T'r~PtOV is something that has been hidden but is later revealed through God's dealings in history. The secret, which can be shared now
but does not yet point to the final phase of history, contains something
unfathomable, for it is a divine mystery of salvation. It is not as though Paul had received a new revelation, or discovered a new insight in Scripture?

The emphasis is not on what Paul received but on what he wants to share
with the Roman church that they may avoid arrogance (v. 20). The particular secret Paul has in mind ('ro fLU(T'r~PtoV 'rou'ro) relates to the
mystery of salvation on which he bases his apostolate to the nations. About
this, he writes in Ephesians 3:6: "through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs
together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together
in the proJ?ise in Christ]esus." However, because the work of God does
not reach its conclusion with the Gentiles Paul warns his readers not to be
arrogant. In this mystery, Paul has discovered an extra dimension: That
which God is doing among the nations also means something for Israel

So All Israel Will Be Saved

At the heart of this exegetical discussion we find the Greek words XCtl
oih'w~ (v. 26). It is questionable, however, whether the weight often attached to these words is justified. Regardless of how this expression is understood, it must be acknowledged that there is something conditional about it: the text presents a contrast between a part of Israel and all Israel. A part of Israel is hardened, but when the condition-the coming in of the
Gentiles-is satisfied, all Israel will be saved. The phrase XCtl oiJ.rw~ has three possible meanings: temporal (after that all Israel will be saved); modal (in this manner all Israel will be saved); or, logical (in the same way, all Israel will be saved). Currently, the temporal interpretation is gaining favor and rightly so, [or the temporal meaning of XCtl oih-w~ has been shown to exist in postclassical Greek, and Paul uses it this way elsewhere. It is also clear that the apostle is thinking ofa progression in time because "until" (C£Xpl ov) also indicates the passage of time (cf. the "then-now" scheme in vv. 30-31). The majority of the church fathers follow this line of interpretation using "then" or "after that." The point is that, not how, all Israel will be saved. 'Icrpctl'JAL-rctl. Furthermore, in Romans 9:3, Paul says that he would be willing to be cut off from Christ, to sacrifice himself and take the place of his countrymen who live without Christ, for apart from Israel's Messiah there is no salvation. The contrast between faith and unbelief is central to Romans 11. Not to be hardened in unbelief is an indispensable condition for being received again (Rom. 11:23). Finally, the phrase can refer to Israel as a whole. This reading may be comparing "the fullness of Israel" and its counterpart, "the full number of the Gentiles." An often-quoted statement from the Jewish Mishnah says: "all Israel has a share in the world to come." Then, immediately following that phrase, we find a long list of people who, because of their sins, have no share in the world to come. After all, Israel is not a sum of individual persons but a collective entity of twelve tribes; after his conversion, Paul still considered himself to be a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin (Rom. 11:1b; Phil. 3:5). In the visions in Revelation, we also encounter the twelve tribes of Israel, first as a messianic army of 144,000 warriors from all the tribes of Israel (Rev. 7:1_9), and then in the names inscribed on the gates of the new Jerusalem, the abode of all the tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:12). Hence, all Israel refers to the whole of Israelites twelve tribes together.

The expression "all Israel" (7rfi.~ 'I(Tpa~A) occurs only once in the New

Testament but is found in the Septuagint as a translation of ;NiiV'

This expression can be understood as the New Testament church consisting
of Jews and Gentiles. However, in Romans 9-11, the name "Israel" is
consistently used in an ethnic sense, meaning the Jewish people. Where a
narrowing .within this group is possible (see Rom. 9:6: Not all who are
descended from Israel are Israel.), an extension to others outside the group is not. Moreover, the significant use of jacob" in the immediately following quotation can only be a reference to the twelve tribes of Israel. The phrase can also be understood as the faithful remnant of Israel, representing the entire people. This, however, would not fit with Paul's earlier hopeful speech about the full number and acceptance of Israel (Rom. 9:11,15). Paul's question revolves around the fate of a people who have hardened themselves in disobedience (Rom. 11:1): Does a disobedient Israel still have a future?

In Paul's chain of thought, the chosen part of Israel (ExAay~; Rom. 11:7) is simply Israel in a nutshell; "Israel" is in apposition to "the others" who were hardened. It is also argued that the phrase refers to every single Israelite.

Gentiles and Jews: A Parallel

The symmetrical structure of Romans 11:30 and 31 illustrates the parallel
Paul sees between his audience, a people of Gentile descent, and
the Jewish people. In the past, the Gentiles did not believe; now they
have found mercy with God. This happened because the Jews refused to
acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel. Now the Jews do not
believe. Will God now not show mercy to his own people? He will because
he has shown mercy to the Gentiles. What stands out is that "everyone," Jew or Gentile, depends on divine mercy, a mercy that sets unbelief aside. This truth redirects the problem with which Paul is grappling-God's election:
God's gifts and his call are irrevocable (Rom. 11:28-29). The Nestle-Aland edition of the Greek text places the second viiv in verse 31 between square brackets. Internal and external considerations with regard to this reading balance each other out, but external considerations clearly argue against a reading that includes ViiV. It is difficult to maintain, therefore, that the conversion of Israel is taking place in the present, as some would suggest. How then must we deal with this dubious little word viiv? There are two possibilities. Either we do not read viiv because it does not belong to the original text, or we can regard it as a reference to the future-something that is to happen soon or as a prophetic turn of events that somehow, as it were, draws the future into the present. Either way, it is God's mercy that Paul emphasizes. That is what it is really about.

Conclusion

Was Paul mistaken? I believe not. In view of the divine mystery of salvation
that formed the foundation for his apostolate, Paul's expectations were justified. Behind the future for the Gentiles with Jesus Christ, Paul
also saw a future for his own people. What Paul shared with the congregation in Rome about the salvation of Israel had a prophetic perspective more complex than he imagined. The redemptive-historical and missionary significance of his words have proved to reach right into our own time.

The foregoing study of all Israel leaves us with the question: What are
the consequences for contemporary Christianity? The search for an answer
to this question should include the following considerations. First, in his
patient dealings with the world, God allows time for repentance, and that
is our salvation (2 Peter 3:8-9) for all who live by faith in the coming of
the kingdom. As we pray for its coming, we are called to show others that
there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved
(Acts 4:12). Whether our audience is of Jewish or Gentile descent, outside
of Jesus Christ there is no salvation. This worldwide appeal becomes
the more urgent as the centuries pass. Second, we should acknowledge
the anguish of Paul's heart because of Israel (Rom. 9:2). There are many
points of contact between church and synagogue, but each contributes
tensions. As it grieves us that we cannot share the joy of Jesus Christ with
all Jews, so our hands should stretch out to a disobedient and obstinate
people (see Rom. 10:21). That will lead to intensive prayer for Israel. What
is more, we must seek to draw Israel to its own Messiah. The question is:
Do we Gentile Christians arouse any envy among Israel? That is precisely
what Paul commends to his audience in Romans 12; Christian conduct in
faith and life may be the instrument for Jews to become receptive to the
gospel of Christ. Finally, Jews who confess the Messiah deserve our support; they understand Paul's existential yearning for his people more than we do. Christians too often regard them as an oddity within the church. Must these Christian Jews assimilate into the Gentile majority, or may they preserve their Jewish identity? Neither may we forget fellow-Christians of Arabic descent who since time immemorial have lived in the land. Will the church nurture those of her children who are descended from Jacob and Ishmael?

Our understanding of Romans 11:26 shows us that twenty-first-century Christians may be fully involved in what Paul envisaged when he wrote
his letter to the church in Rome. Throughout the ages, the relationship
between Israel and the church continues to deserve careful attention. Our
Christian responsibility in this regard is impelled by the expectation that
Paul expresses concerning the salvation of all Israel: Ora et labora. In so
doing, we may confidently place both our futures in God's hands. May
messianic peace be the portion of us all."

The Redemptive-Historical
Dynamics of the Salvation of "All Israel" (Rom. 11:26a)

P. H. R. (Rob) van Houwelingen

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

One last one. Donald Grey Barnhouse comments:

"Children of the Promise"

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. -Rom. 9:6-13

The text flatly states that the choice of God was not dependent on their birth character. The choice was in the heart of God and based entirely on His Sovereign authority. He decided that Jacob was the child who was to carry the line of Messiah and be heir to blessing, and in the same way, He determined that Esau was not to carry the line nor inherit the blessing. How foolish are those who try to limit God to time and make Him dependent upon the actions of men. This simply is not true. Jacob had done no good that could be recommend him to God and Esau had done no evil that could have disqualified him. Before these twins came from their mother's womb, the sovereign God of the universe who decides all things had determined that the elder should serve the younger. This is God's divine purpose. The works and characters of the individuals had nothing to do with the choice.

The Lord Jesus, when bringing His message of judgment against the leaders of His day, said, "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt. 8:11-12) There is no dispute among interpreters here concerning the parties mentioned in this judgment. The many who come from the East and West are the Gentile believers of this age. The sons are the sons of Israel. Why should they be "cast into outer darkness"? As we have pointed out before, all Israel are not true Israel. These doubtless were Israelites after the flesh, and not after the spirit.

So it was from the gate of Eden, "by faith, Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was justified" (Heb. 11:4) This same process applies to all those who believed before the time of Christ, as we have shown in great detail. We saw that the true meaning of the death of Christ esd that He should "set forth to be a mercy seat through faith in his blood; to declare God's righteousness for the remission of sins [Old Testament Saints] through the forbearance of God" (Rom. 3:25). Thus it can be seen that a true Israelite is one who took God at His word, and lived in obedience to Him.

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." We are to sit down with the children of Israel in glory in the fulfillment of this promise. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will sit down at the high table. Whatever supplementary interpretations may be given to this passage, it cannot be disputed that the sons of the Old Testament are to sit down and feast in the glory of the kingdom of heaven, or as Luke puts it "the kingdom of God" (Lk. 13:29).

Whatever may be the differences between Israel living on the earth before Christ and the believers living on earth since Christ, there can be no doubt that they are seen united in glory. We are one with Abraham in in this justification. (cf. Rom. 8:28-29) If we go backward or forward, the result is the same. We are justified together because we had been called together. The calling was because of mutual predestination, and the mutual predestination was because we were alike joined in the foreknowledge of god. If we proceed from our common justification in the future direction, we find that we are glorified together. All who believe are justified from all things (Acts 13:39), and all who are justified are glorified. Beyond this glorification for Abraham and all his seed, there can be nothing higher. We share and share alike.

When we come to the epistles to the Galatians...Paul was writing to the Galatians because of the Judaizers who were teaching hat they were inferior to Abraham and that they could not have higher glory that was promised to him unless they returned to the old Testament and received circumcision. Certainly, if it were true that there is a position and promise of glory for the church that is higher than that of Abraham and his seed, here was the place to announce it. The epistle merely sets forth that we and Abraham were justified in exactly the same manner. Christ bore the curse so that the blessing f Abraham might come upon the Gentiles. (Gal. 3:14) It is added that the Gentiles whoa re saved in this age will get the common blessing promised to Abraham, "they who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham" (Gal. 3:9) Even a human contract cannot be broken if once it has been agreed upon; how much less the divine contract! The climax is that "we are all the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3 :26) Then come the astounding revelation-astonishing when we consider the divine order-that because we belong to Jesus Christ we have become Abrahams' seed (Gal. 3:26,29)"

Donald Grey Barnhouse, Romans, IV, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Gods' Covenants, Copyright 1963, Chapter IV, Children of the Promise, pp. 26-34

Sorry dude, to separate Israel and believers is to say God has one plan for Gentiles accomplished in this era, and one plan for Israel in the coming era is pure dispensationalism.

I'm a Dispensationalist, and even I disagree with that theory.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Revealing Times said:

God will have Mercy on all that call upon His name, thus He will have Mercy upon those who Beat their Breast and cry out, I am a sinner o Lord, Have Mercy upon me. TO SAY OTHERWISE is to deny what Jesus said, I have come that all men might be saved. The Key is, you must ask God for Mercy, this isn't rocket science, its better. SMILE.

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Hi RT, if it's so easy, why is the vast majority choosing to drink the "Kool-Aid", rather than the "living water" that Jesus offers to those who know Him .. John 4:10

Perhaps some are better informed than others are? Brighter/smarter? Better choosers? Better looking ? Or are some simply "better people" than other people are?

For that matter, why do some choose to do the good thing, the right thing, the obedient thing, the very thing God wants them to do (John 6:29), while most others refuse to (all the while knowing what the outcome of their choice will be)?

Knowing what you do about the Lord, why do 'you' believe that so many choose eternal punishment, agony and death in Hell, rather than eternal life, joy and happiness in God's very presence? Why would any reasonable/rational person make such a horrible/foolish/eternal choice

Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
David

St_Worm2 said:

Hi RT, if it's so easy, why is the vast majority choosing to drink the "Kool-Aid", rather than the "living water" that Jesus offers to those who know Him .. John 4:10

Perhaps some are better informed than others are? Brighter/smarter? Better choosers? Better looking ? Or are some simply "better people" than other people are?

For that matter, why do some choose to do the good thing, the right thing, the obedient thing, the very thing God wants them to do (John 6:29), while most others refuse to (all the while knowing what the outcome of their choice will be)?

Knowing what you do about the Lord, why do 'you' believe that so many choose eternal punishment, agony and death in Hell, rather than eternal life, joy and happiness in God's very presence? Why would any reasonable/rational person make such a horrible/foolish/eternal choice

Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
David

"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48
​

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Some people love sin more than God. Satan and 1/3 of the Angels did also.