I AM NOT PORTRAYING GOD IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN WHAT HE SAYS HE IS!! I have never accused God of tormenting/torturing anyone!! Not ever!! Others have and I have only objected to that!! You are only proving my conclusion that you have not read what I have posted!!
deep breath...count to ten...what I am saying is that if you dismiss what scripture says about hell in order to justify who God is, you are ignoring who God is because the two go hand in hand and are a beautiful story if you actually listen to it.
"now it's your turn to show how the
passages presented that show hell is eternal torment are compatible with the idea that people cease to exist in hell"
I have repeatedly done that, but you haven't even attempted to address what I said, only tried to side step and wave it away.
What I found when I studied this topic in depth according to what scripture says through a system of checks and balances that contain no less then 7 layers of protection against false interpretation and still am testing that interpretation as per scriptures instruction (one of the reasons I am here) is....
1. hell is a real thing
2. hell is eternal torment
3. those in hell are aware on some level of that torment (had a couple of posts that talked about that in depth)
4. as the consequence of sin hell is NOT a punishment or torture chamber orchestrated by God but the natural result of man sinning and God's holiness.
5. as a consequence of sin, man chooses by the God given gift of choice where he will spend eternity.
6. Man is eternal by nature of the spirit/soul that is also a gift from God. the choice man makes is eternal life through the shed blood (aka death) of Christ or the eternal death which is eternal separation from God (aka hell)
Now, all these understandings work together to form my understanding and none can be taken from the others without understanding they all work together. You know, like you and others are trying to make issues with just one or two points and ignore the rest of what I am saying. That is to remove the whole context of my position, a position that apparently you all have repeatedly heard and dismiss but give no reason for dismissing it nor argument against it...that same song and dance.
Excuse me??!!! That has been done on this thread-you miss that? You have not presented anhything showing that the soul is immortal!!
well, I did present scripture...I was under the assumption that evidence of what scipture says would involve scripture...how silly of me....what evidence do you want to what scripture says if scripture isn't sufficient evidence?
There are 11 verses implying eternal hell--26 implying destruction. The verses stating the we are all mortal and are given immortality as a gift from
so, now, you want us to think that we can dismiss passages because of the number of times it consistently says something? How horrifying from my position. Here is my position on the matter. If God is truly God, that is without question God, then everything He tells us is not only truth but is consistent with every other word He gives us. IOW's scripture will NOT contradict itself or it is either not the word of God or God is not God. One or the other. Thus when I looked at both sides of the issue and pulled out passages on both sides of the issue and looked at the context and translation of both sides of the issue and told you all that the destruction verses did not remove the possibility of the eternal torment passages but would be consistent if it is eternal torment, then I didn't say it for my own health...I didn't look it up for you for my own pride, I did it to show that God is God and scripture is evidenced of His truth.
God and only God is immortal have already been posted and you did not regard them.
You have given nothing that denies the fact that eternal life is given to the saved not the lost. Disprove that! That fact alone eliminates eternal hell. And that was brought up at the start of this thread
so all the times I showed both sides of the issue in scripture and addressed how the two sides are compatible is me ignoring one side...okay then, not sure how you can make that claim given my posts that show passage from both sides of the issue and how they are consistent with each other, but whatever it takes for you to sleep at night I guess...but please refrain from making these false claims of me in public from now on since it is a violation of forum rules. In fact, you are still using semantics to prove something that has repeatedly been shown to you to be a misuse of the scriptural understanding of life and death...I get that a lot of people get uncomfortable when their traditional understandings are challenged, but the truth of the matter is that if you were being sincere, you would at least be able to understand what is being said and not inflate it into something that isn't being said.
1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
That clearly states no murder has eternal life in him---No unrepentant murder will ever be given eternal life---therefore he can never burn eternally for there is no life in death!
now, even though you have claimed that no one is addressing these scriptures and yet I and others that I remember have dealt with it but you refuse to hear what is being said, let me remind you of what was said on this matter. According to scripture there is eternal life and second death often talked about in the church as the second death...IOW's the flesh dies and the spirit/soul can "die"
Revelation 20:14
Revelation 21:8
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 20:6
Jude 1:12
Verse Concepts
These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Now, when we look at these passages that tell us what the second death is it leads us to an understanding of what hell is and whether we are conscious or not. As previously shown I provided passages on both sides of this issue and showed how consistency requires that we understand that there is some form of consciousness we just don't know exactly what that consciousness is.
Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"
Did Jesus say---You already have eternal life it's just a matter of where you will spend it??
why would He say that when He is talking about eternal life not eternal death, that is to say, He is talking about whether the spirit is dead or alive....I know, I know, I refuse to provide scripture and refuse to address the things you bring up, right?
Revelation 3:1
Ephesians 2:1
Ephesians 2:5
Colossians 2:13
Romans 8:6
Romans 8:10
Matthew 8:22
Luke 9:60
2 Corinthians 4:3
John 5:25
Luke 15:24
Luke 15:32
Hosea 13:1
Romans 7:8
1 Corinthians 1:18
1 John 3:14
Romans 7:10
2 Corinthians 3:6
Jeremiah 21:8
Romans 7:9
2 Corinthians 3:7
Verse Concepts
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
we can be spiritually alive or spiritually dead. The above passage is talking about how to be spiritually alive not spiritually dead so why would Christ ask, "You already have eternal life it's just a matter of where you will spend it??" that would be an illogical question for Him to ask given the topic of the text as per the context of the passage.
Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but it is juxtaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Consequences--that's a term you seem to like. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal, the 2nd death--there will be no further resurrections from it. Jesus never referred to the 2nd death as sleep, He did the 1st death. There is no waking up from that 2nd death. There is not one single verse that states the wicked are given eternal life in order to spend it in hell.
given what the discussion has been up to this point, I have absolutely no clue what you are trying to say here. Christ compares eternal death to eternal life, both being eternal but one is eternal and the other isn't because scripture calls one sleep and the other death? That is like...I can't even think of a polite way to say what kind of nonsense that sounds like...seriously, I'm not trying to be difficult here but that just doesn't make any logical sense anywhere in it. As to the resurrection, I have said nothing at all about the resurrection, I am still waiting for people to address the issues I did bring up about ECT to worry about trying to get you all to understand the resurrection of the dead. I mean if you can't even understand that eternal death is not eternal life as you keep trying to insist, how can I hope to get you to understand resurrection of the dead.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
They have no life--the wrath of God abideth in him---the 2nd death, no getting up from that.
again, you are confusing eternal life with eternal death and I can't even count how many times this issue has been addressed and yet you have the nerve to accuse me and others of not addressing the passages you present...really, that is kind of nutty if you ask me. One sees eternal life, the other will not see LIFE does not say one sees eternal life the other ceases to exist. One could infer that, but I already talked about how both sides are supported in scripture the key is to find how both sides fit together into one understanding without discarding any of scripture. Here, you just go on some wild tangent that doesn't even say what you want it to say at all.
John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"
John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
now I don't have a clue how many times you have been told that eternal life and eternal death are two completely different things. I don't have a clue how many times you have been told that posting passages that talk about how to make our eternity LIFE in Christ doesn't support the spiritual death is ceasing to exist, because I have lost count. so you see, it has been dealt with and you ignore it so that you can claim that you are dealing with it and we are ignoring it....so let's try this.
I understand and hear you when you say that eternal life means that eternal/spiritual death is ceasing to exist, but we have repeatedly shown you that that is not the case. In fact, I have on at least a couple of occasions talked about how I personally think our teaching should be more in line with scripture meaning that our focus should be eternal life as you post in these passages and less about eternal death aka hell as many people try to use that to scare people into belief. That does NOT mean that spiritual death is not eternal, what it means is that Christ cared more about eternal/spiritual life than eternal spiritual death and so should we. I'm not sure how to address these verses any more than they already have been, they every single one defend what I and others have been telling you and do nothing at all to make your case. At least if you want to make the case in scripture use passages that talk about eternal or spiritual death not just life in Christ.
This is another very popular verse which is quite clear in its teaching. "The wages of sin is death (not eternal life in hell), but the gift of God is eternal life..."
death meaning the second death which some verses say is eternal...that is exactly the point that you refuse to address so that you can falsely accuse others of ignoring you. No one is ignoring you, we are addressing your verses by showing you that you are not addressing the issue in these verses. The topic of debate is not eternal life but eternal death. As such talking about eternal life doesn't address the issue at all.
Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."
same issue as above.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11).
This was already gone over---it is the smoke that rises-even after something is burned up completely, the smoke is still in the air--like in forest fires--we get their smoke in Nevada from California!
yep and that smoke that goes on for eternity also makes the ones that are consumed and thus cease to exist "have no rest day and night" right....how can something that ceases to exist, that is something that is burnt up and utterly gone have no rest day and night? Just asking? I can't figure it out but since you can't tell the difference between life and death when we put the word eternal on it I'm guessing you can explain how something that doesn't exist cannot have rest.
Besides---this says "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" So, throughout eternity, God and the holy angels are going to sit there and watch them being "tormented with fire and brimstone"??!!! People actually believe this??? What?--
will they'll be passing the popcorn during this?
I got to take care of my dog---she gets her pain pill now.
Huh? Who here had this as one of the many versions of ECT we are talking about? I know it is, just don't know why you bring in one that no one here is believing...as to in front of, look at the passage in context, the length of time that the angels and God witness is not mentioned, however their unrest is...how is flipping the two helping to understand the intent of God on a matter?
