What Is Francis Doing?

SolomonVII

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I am too ignorant of politics in Latin America to be able to make any sensible comment about their needs.

But when I look at the countries/economies with which I am more familiar, where human welfare is bought and sold at a price, and the rich get richer based on exploitation of those with no power to change their circumstances... I do think that the system could be improved upon. Not adopting Marx's ideas wholesale, but perhaps recognising where they might balance our profoundly damaging excesses.

This sort of thinking is not foreign to Christianity either, but by and large we have forgotten the very early church's suspicion of wealth as something which is an impediment to the Christian life. (For example, see Clement's work, Who is the Rich Man Who Shall Be Saved?)

Fair enough You are not expert enough to make a sensible comment
And, agreed, any system may be improved upon.
No system has ever been improved upon by praising the disaster that Marxism has left in its wake each and every time.
Insanity is defined as repeating the same course of action and expecting different results.
 
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paul becke

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Pope Francis by all accounts has lived a pauper's life. There is nothing wrong with that. Poverty has been a Catholic virture since, well, forever, and it is well and good that Pope Francis practiced, and practices, what he preaches.

There have been no accounts nevertheless of him multiplying the loaves or commanding the fishes to leap into the nets of Peter.

He is poor; he does not feed the poor. For that he depends on the good will and charity of the rich.

For their part Marxists talk a good game. If wishes were fishes, the world's poor would all be as fat as the American underclass.

Instead, what the world's poor get every time instead of bread baskets filled to overflowing are basketcases, like Venezuela.

So again, where is the wisdom in that?

'....the world's poor would all be as fat as the American underclass.'

Have you no shame bringing such shallow self-serving nonsense on here, because you resent being forced to share with poor the from your affluence. Have you not read what the Fathers said about your putative ownership of your affluence ? They would have had a far, far better grasp of Christian truth than you have. For sure.

It is the corn oil (and perhaps some of the other poisons the people are force-fed by a Congress bought and paid for by the oligarchs of the 'deep state' - unless they can pay over the odds for organic) that has caused Americans such humiliation in the eyes of the world.

It is the wicked US-sponsored billionaires who have ruined Venezuela, and they and their supporters (who actually know what they are doing, instead of just regurgitating propaganda) will pay in hell for all eternity.

'
  • St. Ambrose: “You are not making a gift of your possessions to poor persons. You are handing over to them what is theirs. For what has been given in common for the use of all, you have arrogated to yourself. The world is given to all, and not only to the rich.”
  • St. John Chrysostom: “Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs.”
  • St. Gregory the Great: “When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.”
  • St. Gregory the Great: “For if everyone receiving what is sufficient for his own necessity would leave what remains to the needy, there would be no rich or poor.”
  • St. Basil: “Are not thou then a robber, for counting as thine own what thou hast receivest to distribute? It is the bread of the famished which thou receivest, the garment of the naked which thou hoardest in thy chest, the shoe of the barefooted which rots in thy possessions, the money of the pennyless which thou hast buried in the earth. Wherefore then dost thou injure so many to whom thou mightest be a benefactor.”
.... from here :

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-new...he-common-good-an-unbroken-line-of-tradition/



http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1823057.Basil_the_Great
 
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SolomonVII

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That diatribe against me is false. The judgment leveled against me by paul becke is not just vicious by simply wrong. It is also against the rules of charity to impugn my character rather than refuting the arguments that I make.

Underlying his response is a complete disability to refute anything.
People are welcome to believe him that the reason that the latest absolute failure of Marxist ideology is all because of evil US billionaires.

Or they can be led by their common sense and the discernment of their own eyes rather than their blind faith in a failed ideology and recognize that this is but the latest example of how Marxist experiments ruin economies, each and every time that they are tried.

Conspiracy theories about the cabal of evil imperialist capitalists as being the source of all evil in the world are the refuge of scoundrels, such as the current populists who even now lead Venezuela into a crisis of food lines and failed production.
 
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paul becke

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I am too ignorant of politics in Latin America to be able to make any sensible comment about their needs.

But when I look at the countries/economies with which I am more familiar, where human welfare is bought and sold at a price, and the rich get richer based on exploitation of those with no power to change their circumstances... I do think that the system could be improved upon. Not adopting Marx's ideas wholesale, but perhaps recognising where they might balance our profoundly damaging excesses.

This sort of thinking is not foreign to Christianity either, but by and large we have forgotten the very early church's suspicion of wealth as something which is an impediment to the Christian life. (For example, see Clement's work, Who is the Rich Man Who Shall Be Saved?)

Again, well-spoken, Paidiske, if I may say so.
 
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paul becke

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That diatribe against me is false. The judgment leveled against me by paul becke is not just vicious by simply wrong. It is also against the rules of charity to impugn my character rather than refuting the arguments that I make.

Underlying his response is a complete disability to refute anything.
People are welcome to believe him that the reason that the latest absolute failure of Marxist ideology is all because of evil US billionaires.

Or they can be led by their common sense and the discernment of their own eyes rather than their blind faith in a failed ideology and recognize that this is but the latest example of how Marxist experiments ruin economies, each and every time that they are tried.

Conspiracy theories about the cabal of evil imperialist capitalists as being the source of all evil in the world are the refuge of scoundrels, such as the current populists who even now lead Venezuela into a crisis of food lines and failed production.

On the contrary. I rather suspect the rebuttals of the early Fathers would be better than my own, if only (unlikely !) for the reason you cite : people who claim to be Christian yet actually seek to denounce those who would follow the emphatic, quite unequivocal teachings of Jesus himself, the Evangelists and the Fathers, fill me with fury. And someone much greater than any of us didn't hold back in his denunciations of the selfish rich ; in the parable of Lazarus, actually comparing the rich man unfavourably with the street-dogs, considered the lowest form of life - when stating that those dogs, dumb beasts though they were, sought to console Lazarus in their hapless way, the only way they knew how - by licking his sores.

The historic materialism of the US has given rise to a weirdly distorted perspective of too many American Christians. Funny, too, that the only references I've come across even in our perjurious media to people in Russia, the former Eastern Bloc and China, starving to death, were after the wicked West sought to plunder them and impose their 'devil take the hindmost,', dog eat dog' capitalism on them.

Oh, apart from during WWII, for which ultimately the blame must placed on Britain and the US - the proximate cause, of course being the Nazis based on Hitler's declamation that barbarism was nothing to be ashamed of. It purified a nation ! Our rogue and vagabond rulers have never forgiven the Russians for the crazy fix they had brought upon themselves : fighting with the Russians against their fellow-fascists.
 
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paul becke

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On the contrary. I rather suspect the rebuttals of the early Fathers would be better than my own, if only (unlikely !) for the reason you cite : people who claim to be Christian yet actually seek to denounce those who would follow the emphatic, quite unequivocal teachings of Jesus himself, the Evangelists and the Fathers, fill me with fury. And someone much greater than any of us didn't hold back in his denunciations of the selfish rich ; in the parable of Lazarus, actually comparing the rich man unfavourably with the street-dogs, considered the lowest form of life - when stating that those dogs, dumb beasts though they were, sought to console Lazarus in their stumbling, hapless way, the only way they knew how - by licking his sores.

The historic materialism of the US has given rise to a weirdly distorted perspective of too many American Christians. Funny, too, that the only references I've come across even in our perjurious media to people in Russia, the former Eastern Bloc and China, were after the wicked West sought to plunder them and impose their 'devil take the hindmost,', dog eat dog' capitalism.

Oh, apart from during WWII, for which ultimately the blame must placed on Britain and the US - the proximate cause, of course being the Nazis based on Hitler's declamation that barbarism was nothing to be ashamed of. It purified a nation ! Our rogue and vagabond rulers have never forgiven the Russians for the crazy fix they had brought upon themselves : fighting with the Russians against their fellow-fascists.
 
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mikpat

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An excellent book/encyclical on guidelines for social action by the Catholic Church would require reading Rerum Novarum. a synthesis of Catholic social thought. (by Pope Leo X11). It provides a socioeconomic analysis——dovetailing with Marx's critique of capitalism but the differences in solving the problems are unbridgeable.

Leo X111 castigated the abuse of private property by capitalists, " To exercise pressure upon the indigent and destitute for the sake of gain, and to gather one's profit out of the need of another is condemned by all laws, human and divine." (Rerum Novarum)…
I think that the Catholic Church today still follows Leo's encyclical, ex. "owner ship of private property was not the issue so much as its proper use.
 
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SolomonVII

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On the contrary. I rather suspect the rebuttals of the early Fathers would be better than my own, if only (unlikely !) for the reason you cite : people who claim to be Christian yet actually seek to denounce those who would follow the emphatic, quite unequivocal teachings of Jesus himself, the Evangelists and the Fathers, fill me with fury.
You chose to double down on your character assassination as if you speak for the Holy Mother Church, and likely even GOD Himself.
That says everything about your own character, and nothing about my own, someone who remains anonymous to you.


And someone much greater than any of us didn't hold back in his denunciations of the selfish rich ; in the parable of Lazarus, actually comparing the rich man unfavourably with the street-dogs, considered the lowest form of life - when stating that those dogs, dumb beasts though they were, sought to console Lazarus in their hapless way, the only way they knew how - by licking his sores.
The Bible places its focus on a rich man and his own individual behavior. Marxism breeds classist resentments against the rich themselves.
Jesus was not a Marxist, and Marx was not a Christian, whatever Liberation Theology would pretend to have us believe differently.

Anyway, there is nothing further to be gained for me on continuing to discuss with people who know nothing about me, and impugn me as a selfish rich person.
 
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SolomonVII

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An excellent book/encyclical on guidelines for social action by the Catholic Church would require reading Rerum Novarum. a synthesis of Catholic social thought. (by Pope Leo X11). It provides a socioeconomic analysis——dovetailing with Marx's critique of capitalism but the differences in solving the problems are unbridgeable.

Leo X111 castigated the abuse of private property by capitalists, " To exercise pressure upon the indigent and destitute for the sake of gain, and to gather one's profit out of the need of another is condemned by all laws, human and divine." (Rerum Novarum)…
I think that the Catholic Church today still follows Leo's encyclical, ex. "owner ship of private property was not the issue so much as its proper use.
Of course. Christianity has always taught us the need for morality in the public and private spheres.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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You chose to double down on your character assassination as if you speak for the Holy Mother Church, and likely even GOD Himself.
That says everything about your own character, and nothing about my own, someone who remains anonymous to you.



The Bible places its focus on a rich man and his own individual behavior. Marxism breeds classist resentments against the rich themselves.
Jesus was not a Marxist, and Marx was not a Christian, whatever Liberation Theology would pretend to have us believe differently.

Anyway, there is nothing further to be gained for me on continuing to discuss with people who know nothing about me, and impugn me as a selfish rich person.

Luke 1:53
53 "HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
NASU

Matt 19:24
24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
NASU

Luke 6:24
24 "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.
NASU

James 5:1-3
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you.

2 Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten.

3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!
 
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mikpat

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At the core of Rerum Novarum and Catholic teaching was the recognition that the wefare of humanity must be the prime concern in all economic calculations. Man's inherent dignity, born of God's creation, needed to be reflected in all facets of society. Economic science is obliged to serve man's moral needs, an ethical imperative which seems to be missing in our present government.
When we study our present administration, the Congress, gov't officials, the problems are not of an institutional nature but rather one of moral failure.

"I think it is wrong to look upon the Catholic religion as by its very nature hostile to democracy. Of all the various interpretations of Christianity, Catholicism strikes me as by far the one most favorable to the equality of social and political conditions. ………" Alexis de Tocqueville.
 
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SolomonVII

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Catholicism is not by its nature hostile to democracy. Catholics have been and continue to be faithful citizens of democracies across the world.

It should also be understood though that Catholic majority countries have had a history of descents into both Marxist revolution and various forms of authoritarian fascism. These extremes are something that need to be guarded against, rather than lauded.
 
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Lybrah

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Stillicidia

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I perceive I think that according to God's will, Pope Francis might be doing better than I ever thought possible.
Despite worldly interpretation.

The times are coming where prophecies will be fulfilled, and Pope Francis relays some of the things which occur.
Unity of the churches will occur, Muslim acceptance will occur, but they will be great Christians.
 
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Imperiuz

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It's embarrassing to say the least. I thought I'd be happy the day the Pope came to my country. But I won't attend.

Coming here to celebrate the Reformation, in what once was one of the most powerful Protestant countries, makes as much sense as if Zoroastrians in Iran would celebrate the anniversary of the Muslim invasion and occupation of their country. It's like His Holiness is trying to get into the Guinness World Records for spitting in as many martyr's faces as possible (first the people who died against Islamic invasions, then the people who died because of the Reformation).

We don't need to behave like spiritual masochists just because we respect our Protestant siblings.
 
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SolomonVII

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The Catholic laity are good God fearing people that are pillars in our democracy and couldn't imagine it any other way.... the Papacy on the other hand is the antithesis of freedom of conscience and democracy.
The papacy, as an office, is not inherently antithetical to freedom of conscience and democracy. True, when it was the seat of power in Europe, it was not in any way democratic, and even today the structure of the Church is autocratic rather than democratic, but the papacy has not been a leader in the fight against freedom, as far as I know.
But the current pope is a leftist, and his sensibilities are toward Marxism and Peronism, and against capitalism and what America has brought to the world.

I have a real problem with that. Many of the Catholics that you describe in your post have the same problem with that as well.

John Paul II was the antithesis of this current when it comes to Marxism, for a 20th century Pole knows first hand the fruits that Marxism has to offer this world.

It is something, I guess, that every generation has to learn for itself.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I also have a problem with that and one might think that the current pope would also have the same problem, coming from a country wracked by the fruits of leftist governments. I have a couple of ideas as to why he does not. First, he is entire ly isolated from the realities most people face in life and only understands things theoretically. Second, he is attempting to reinvent the image of the Catholic Church from one which has supported the ruling elite, especially in South America, to one which is aligned with the proletariat. This may be because the Catholic Church in South America has been in an enormouse downward spiral in losing members, primarily of the working classes.
 
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