2017

Bible2+ said:

Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium

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Gog has been around for a long time, I believe he is a demon who has possessed many humans throughout history and was in charge of the territory, Magog. If so, all demons are released from the Abyss including the four angels who have been bound at the Euphrates, so he can possess an unbeliever during this time. When a person is possessed, they have a name. Remember when Jesus asked the demon what his name was and there were many, Legend. He didn't ask the man his name, so it is correct to identify the person who is possessed by his demonic name.
I'm not sure Obama is Gog, we wouldn't know until he becomes possessed by him - if he does. That fatal blow to the head and 3 days later a resuscitation and changed personality with supernatural powers would confirm it.

Bible2+ said:

Note that Obama isn't the Antichrist, because the gematrial "number of the name" of the person who is the Antichrist is 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2), while the gematrial number of the name "Barack Hussein Obama" is 793:

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Don't be so sure about that scripture. It says we are to "calculate the number". The number 666 is already given, then it is in the calculations of that number that we are to examine.


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Satan is called "gog" in Ezekiel 38

And his beast from the abyss is a fallen angel [Revelation 9:11]

Obama is neither by description and will soon be out of office

CrystalDragon said in post 137:

I thought that the term "Antichrist" for one specific person wasn't even in the Bible, just as anyone who's against Christ.

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Any person is an antichrist who denies that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

But note that the existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict there is an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

Also, the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

parousia70 said in post 138:

"even now many antichrists have appeared ... THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us they would have remained with us; but they went out" (1 Jn 2:18-19)

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This can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic-type Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).

Even today, believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

ken777 said:

The DNA evidence proves their origins are in the Middle East - this (along with their history, culture & religion) is evidence they are descended from Abraham.

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The Truth is that all geneological records of the Hebrew people were destroyed with the Temple in 70AD.
The Truth is that there is no pre desolation Abrahamic DNA to compare todays Jewish DNA to.

The Truth is that no person alive today can prove any genetic link to the Hebrew people of the 1st century and prior.

The Truth is that after the Destruction of Jerusalem, the VERY FEW Hebrews left alive were assimilated into the surrounding populations and lost ALL connection to Abraham, Moses, Aaron, etc...

The Truth is Today's Jews are multi ethnic followers of the post Christian religion of Talmudic Judaism. NONE follow the Law of Moses, NONE are in any convenanted Relationship with the Father, and NONE have any verifiable genetic link to the Pre desolation Hebrew people.

I realize that this Truth is quite inconvenient for many.

"The Truth is that all geneological records of the Hebrew people were destroyed with the Temple in 70AD."


Got evidence?

If I went to experts in Israel on the matter what would I find ?

And I have the records in scripture which I believe can be fully relied upon

And I also have the prophets and the Book of Revelation to substantiate that the Lord is not finished with His national people of Israel as a nation to this very day .... and this will continue into the future

Israel as an ethnic peoples [all 10 tribes] exist on the earth as we speak, some have been returned to the land for the Lord's purposes and the others will follow .... then He is going to do this [Ezekiel 20:33-44]

And it will be through this purging that believing balance will be saved and at the core of His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 30; Daniel 9:24; Micah 4:1-3; 5; Romans 11:25-36]

This is a very interesting subject to study indeed. Your own hermeneutics and eschatology will vary depending on many things, one of which is if you're pre / mid / post-tribulation etc.

I find the things the Vatican is saying and doing the last decade very odd, much less it's drastic turn around since Vatican II. Historically the Holy See has put many people to death for such heresy as it's espousing now. No need to mention them all as everyone here has a computer to check their odd change of direction. The first Pope to step down in over 400 years, and being replaced by the first ever Jesuit, Pope Francis. Interesting to say the least, especially if you put any stock in the 700 year old St. Malachy line of Popes prophecy.

Things I'm trying to watch for. Two thirds of the Bible deals with the nation of Israel, Israel is God's chosen peoples and His time clock and the center of my attention. Contrary to some peoples Bibliology, the church didn't replace Israel and God is not done dealing with Israel. That's the whole purpose for the tribulation.

My own eschatological view point as a pre-tribulationalist, I suspect the longest currently inhabited city on earth, Damascus, will become a heap of ruins prior to the harpazo [Rapture]. Things seem to be shaping up with ISIS, the Bear and the King of the East now in Syria, no?

By the middle of the seven year tribulation, the rebuilt Jewish temple has to be standing according to scripture for the anti-Christ to defile it. I would suspect it would take at least a few years to construct it on a fast track?

The city of Babylon in Iraq will become an economic power house and is slated for destruction during the great tribulation [last 3-1/2 years]. Some progress rebuilding it occurred by Saddam Hussein but, as far as I know most of the city is still in ruins?

The nation of Turkey plays a major end times roll. Currently Turkey is still a member of NATO but BIG changes are occuring in Turkey even as I type.

To see what time it is on God's prophetic time clock, I'm keeping a close watch on Israel, the European Union, the Vatican and Pope, Turkey, Babylon, Damascus / Syria, and of course, the Holy Bible.

The Bible has many so called "gaps" too numerous to mention, one being the 'gap' between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. It appears to me there is a 'gap' of time between the rapture and the signing of a peace agreement with Israel, that identifies who the anti-Christ is and the 'start' of the seven year tribulation. This 'gap' could be one hour or years? I suspect it will have to be at least a period of months if not years, to recover from millions of Christians that suddenly disappeared?

There is nothing that must be fulfilled before the rapture occurs, and indeed it's so very close. We live in very exciting times!

Watch Israel and the Middle East .... and always be ready for your Lord to call for you

.... could happen before this day is over

Dennis1209 said in post 148:

I suspect the longest currently inhabited city on earth, Damascus, will become a heap of ruins prior to the harpazo [Rapture].

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Damascus could be destroyed by Israel's nuclear weapons during a future all-out war (Isaiah 17:1). Yet this war will also break the power of Israel (Isaiah 17:4).

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) in Iraq, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government in Baghdad, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could completely defeat ISIS and all Iranian-supported Shiite militias in Iraq. Then, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

Dennis1209 said in post 148:

The city of Babylon in Iraq will become an economic power house and is slated for destruction during the great tribulation [last 3-1/2 years].

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Note that it won't be destroyed until after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

That is, the city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the ancient city of Babylon, just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

For the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

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In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10,13 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:15.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now in northwestern Iran. (The Kurds who now live there, and in surrounding areas, even claim to be the descendants of the ancient Medes.)

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Dennis1209 said:

Contrary to some peoples Bibliology, the church didn't replace Israel

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Correct, the Church Didn't replace Israel, rather the Church is the Faithful Remnant of Israel, and has been Israel all along.
The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12;Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

There is nothing that must be fulfilled before the rapture occurs, and indeed it's so very close. We live in very exciting times!

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Do you mean "very close" in the same way the apostles meant it when they said it was very close or are you using a different interpretation than the apostles used?

Bible2+ said:

Also, the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

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Sorry B2+, that comparison doesn't work.
Note that there is no Explicit teaching on "the Trinity" in scripture.
In contrast we have actual, very explicit teaching on antichrist found in 4 passages.

So, coming up with an "interpretation by inference" for antichrist that is NOT FOUND in any of the 4 passages that "explicitly teach" about antichrist can not be said to equate to an "interpretation by inference" for the Trinity, a concept NOT EXPLICITLY taught in scripture.

My comment

The NT "church" is one thing .... the Lord's nation of Israel is another .... from Genesis to Revelation

And just after after the Lord's true ecclesia are called to immortality of both the dead and the living He is going deal with a returned remnant of His national people of Israel for this experience [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20:33-44; Matthew 25; Luke 21:20-36; Acts 1:6-7; Romans 11:25-36]

The Damascus prophecy in Isaiah 17 has already been fulfilled when the ancient Assyrians attacked the city as they were expanding their Middle Eastern Empire long ago

Mystery Babylon's "great city" in Revelation is the Lord's view of human intransigence against Him at the time of the end of this present age .... ancient Babylon is used as an example of this behavior .... His view is the entire unbelieving world with a "great city" that has worldwide influence over all of the cities of the nations who have refused to believe the truth about Him

Straightshot said in post 153:

Mystery Babylon's "great city" in Revelation is the Lord's view of human intransigence against Him . . .

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That's right, in the sense that Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Straightshot said in post 153:

Mystery Babylon's "great city" in Revelation is the Lord's view of human intransigence against Him at the time of the end of this present age ....

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By "this present age", are you thinking of the idea of a so-called "age of grace" or "church age"? If so, note that regarding the present age (world) ending, nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Straightshot said in post 153:

His view is the entire unbelieving world with a "great city" that has worldwide influence over all of the cities of the nations who have refused to believe the truth about Him

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Some people feel that that great city with worldwide (corrupting) influence must be New York City, or Washington DC. Or they extrapolate this out and say that the U.S. as the world superpower must be "Babylon".

But while the corrupt aspects of the U.S. are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all Christian martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the 1st leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the 2nd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the 3rd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the 1st century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And 2 nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against 2 major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap 2 terrorist nuclear bombs against 2 of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the 2 cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a big nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist (who won't be from the U.S.) to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadists? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadist attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world?

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Ultimately, the power behind the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). But there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

ken777 said:

Do you think the lexical meanings of the words "taken" (paralambano) and "left" (aphiemi) can be construed to support your interpretation?

Do you see a reference to the eagle in Job 39:30 in Jesus' comment in Luke 17:37?

Do you agree that the three mentions of eagles (aetos) in Revelation refer to godly subjects (Revelation 4:7, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 8:13 NRSV)?

Do you think Jesus' listeners would have been aware of Isaiah 40:31?

Do you think Jesus' disciples would have gained an understanding of John 6:53 by the time He spoke the words in Luke 17:37?

Using the lexical meanings of "taken" & "left", who do you think was "taken" in Matthew 25:1-13?

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I think we have a very different read on the Scriptures.

ken777 said:

Matthew 24:36 says: no person knows the day or the hour of Christ's return. Having said that, are there events that seem to point to 2017 being a significant year for those looking for His return?

There is the total solar eclipse August 21, 2017. We know that the sun being darkened is associated with spiritual events in Scripture. AFAIK it will only be seen in the USA. Significant?
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Then there is the idea that 1917, 1967 & 2017 are jubilee years (Leviticus 25:9-10). This is connected to the prophecy of Rabbi Judah ben Samuel.

The Bible indicates there will be signs to recognize the unfolding of end time events. I don't have any timetable, or even a specific sequence of events, but I think it is worthwhile considering possible portents of what lies ahead. Along with many other Christians I believe we are in the season of Christ's return.

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I think we have a very similar read on the Scriptures.



I think that our subject matter here is not for everyone.

Some people just don't want to talk about it and I understand.

I think that Jupiter is a sign and 1994 was a sign when the Jubilee calendar came to a logical termination after seven sets of 70 weeks since it started in 1437BC.

But I thought that if someone or even a theology was correct on one important truth, then the Holy Spirit must be with them and they should be right about everything. Instead, it's looking more like everyone could have some piece of the puzzle. The trouble may be that this requires cooperation amongst the Body in putting the pieces together.

I'll post a video here that I've been watching but I don't agree with everything that the author has said. I don't agree with much of his end time schematic but he makes some unique points. This person currently has 3 videos in his list and updates them so the link as is posted today may change in the future. He thinks something could happen November 20 that would open the door for the man of sin. Talk about sticking your neck out.

As I have previously found the events of Shoemaker-Levy 9 to be peculiar in 1994, this author's mention of it in a supposed relation to the Revelation 12 sign seemed strange. Maybe a little spooky.

Anyway, Cave at emptor.