How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

there is no 'deal' with Titus 2:11 , its a simple reality check.

unless of course you presume Paul is as stupid as you think suggesting the grace/salvation has appeared to all men in his lifetime as if he has traveled the whole planet and proclaimed the gospel, or suggest that salvation is for all people regardless if they have not heard it (Universalism).

the only real and contextual conclusion is that Paul is saying the gospel is available for all people, it is not exclusive to a certain people but inclusive to ALL people.

now why write "all people" and not just simply write "all". obviously Paul has in mind categories of people, and he being a jew is the apostle for the gentiles as well. 2 kinds of people and the whole of them, as ALL.

OzSpen said:

Why can't you deal with the content of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'?

You can that in the apostles' time the grace of God did NOT appear to ALL people in general. So are you telling me that you don't believe Titus 2:11 (ESV)?

You state: 'What you need to understand is that the word "all ", refers to all kinds/category of men'. That's the typical Calvinistic response. I've been a Christian too long to accept that explanation without equivocation. There is not a word in Titus 2:11 to state that 'bringing salvation for all people' refers to people of all kinds/categories. That's an insertion into the text that you have invented. Do you know what that's called? Eisegesis!

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bottomofsandal said:

You must then believe God's saving grace is insufficient and requires man-help.
Saved by grace according to God's grace not of yourself according to Ephesians 2

Don't confuse common grace with ultimate saving grace. God's grace NEVER fails.
If you "choose" to believe it does, that is your prerogative. Is God's arm too short?

If you believe you resist grace, how do you later summon grace when necessary?

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You are the one saying: “God's arm too short” since not everyone is saved and it is not up to man to accept or reject that grace, so it would be God’s fault (short arms).

Grace is always available to those that have not rejected God’s charity to the point of never accepting His charity. Like the prodigal son you must come to your senses and mentally turn to God for undeserved help.

bling said:

You are the one saying: “God's arm too short” since not everyone is saved and it is not up to man to accept or reject that grace, so it would be God’s fault (short arms).

Grace is always available to those that have not rejected God’s charity to the point of never accepting His charity. Like the prodigal son you must come to your senses and mentally turn to God for undeserved help.

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Bling, reformed and salvation by grace alone people do not believe it is God's intention to save all people, God only saves those He has called.
Since God's promise is that all that call on the name of the LORD will be saved, then you have to ask why everyone does not call on God to save them.
Jesus said unbelievers are not willing to come to Him that they may have life because they do not have the love of God in them.
They don't have that love because God is not at work in them, He is not calling, He is not drawing them to Christ.
Since all that are drawn come to Christ, then those that are not drawn do not come to Christ.
There is no prevenient grace, the elect who are called of Christ obtain salvation, while the rest are blinded in their minds by the god of this world.

Mark 3:13
[ The Twelve Apostles ] And He went up on the mountain and called to Him those He Himself wanted. And they came to Him.
John 10:3
To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’
Acts 2:39
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 11:9
But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’
Acts 13:2
As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 15:17
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.’
Romans 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
Romans 1:6
among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Romans 1:7
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:17
(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 9:7
nor are they all children (of God) because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”, that is called of God according to His promise, meaning they will be of those saved since they are of God's family having the faith of Abraham, by design of God they're what they are.
Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Romans 9:24
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:25
As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
Romans 9:26
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 Corinthians 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:26
[ Glory Only in the Lord ] For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1 Corinthians 7:17
[ Live as You Are Called ] But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches.
1 Corinthians 7:18
Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.
1 Corinthians 7:20
Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.
1 Corinthians 7:21
Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it.
1 Corinthians 7:22
For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave.
1 Corinthians 7:24
Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
Galatians 1:6
[ Only One Gospel ] I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
Galatians 1:15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,
Galatians 5:8
This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.
Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not useliberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Ephesians 1:18
the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 4:1
[ Walk in Unity ] I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
Philippians 3:14
I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.
Colossians 4:11
and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision; they have proved to be a comfort to me.
1 Thessalonians 2:12
that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.
1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
1 Thessalonians 5:24
He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of Hisgoodness and the work of faith with power,
2 Thessalonians 2:14
to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,


Hebrews 2:11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctifiedare all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 3:1
[ The Son Was Faithful ] Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 5:4
And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
Hebrews 5:10
called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”
Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 11:8
[ Faithful Abraham ] By faith Abraham obeyed when he wascalled to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:18
of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”
James 2:7
Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
James 2:23
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he wascalled the friend of God.
1 Peter 1:15
but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all yourconduct,
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1 Peter 2:21
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
1 Peter 3:9
not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing.
1 Peter 5:10
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
2 Peter 1:3
as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
1 John 3:1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
3 John 1:10
Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.
Jude 1:1
[ Greeting to the Called ] Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Revelation 19:9
Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”
Revelation 19:11
[ Christ on a White Horse ] Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Revelation 19:13
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Here we see again salvation is only for those He has called.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

sdowney717 said:

Here we see again salvation is only for those He has called.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

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Salvation is only for those who obey.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Geralt said:

now why write "all people" and not just simply write "all". obviously Paul has in mind categories of people, and he being a jew is the apostle for the gentiles as well. 2 kinds of people and the whole of them, as ALL.

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Argument from silence is a a logical fallacy. Paul did not state that he was referring to 'categories of people'.

Oz

sdowney717 said:

Here we see again salvation is only for those He has called.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Click to expand...

But the Bible also says in 1 John 2:2 (ESV): 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.'

So we see that Christ died for the 'sins of the whole world' and not for some elect few.

bottomofsandal said:

No. What I said is below, not your truncated scissor version:

Grace NEVER fails. God's arm (power) is not contingent on man's whimsical choice.
Recall in Acts 9 the saving power of God's grace on display when Paul becomes Saul.

Nowhere does God say that He waits for man to react and respond to His Divine grace.
Don't confuse the graciousness of God (that He does not destroy us all) with saving grace.
Amazing Grace is amazing and 100% effective. God's arm is not too short. His grace never fails.

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Common grace, which you made up, fails.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3956&t=KJV

Greek word 'pas' can mean all of everything, or some of all types.
Even so God does command all men to repent and believe the gospel.
But that does not means He divinely helps with a miracle all men by making them born again.
Still, let's say God wishes all men to repent, since He would rather they not perish in Hell.
Yet, God Himself says, 'I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion'
and 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy'.

So then it is not of man that will or runs, but of God who decides to demonstrate His mercy.

Jesus helps those who are Abraham's seed. Hebrews 2. There is a deep truth in there many are ignorant of.

1 Peter 1:3
[ A Heavenly Inheritance ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

We were only born again because God showed us His mercy.
And to those who are not born again, He did not show them mercy.

bottomofsandal said:

No. What I said is below, not your truncated scissor version:


Grace NEVER fails. God's arm (power) is not contingent on man's whimsical choice.
Recall in Acts 9 the saving power of God's grace on display when Paul becomes Saul.

Nowhere does God say that He waits for man to react and respond to His Divine grace.
Don't confuse the graciousness of God (that He does not destroy us all) with saving grace.
Amazing Grace is amazing and 100% effective. God's arm is not too short. His grace never fails.

Click to expand...

First off: my comment was not addressing specifically your overall argument, but was just showing your theology is guilty of what you are calling others of being guilty off “God’s arms are too short”.

I can show how my doctrine does not show God’s arms to be “too short”, but I was showing how your doctrine makes God’s arms out to be too short.

You say we portray God lacking power to save or keep people saved, but that is not the case at all. As Christians we have been given the inheritance of eternal life in heaven (and it is spoken most of the time as an inheritance), but like most inheritance, possession of the actual gift comes afterwards.

If you have the deed to your parent’s home and it is your inheritance, you can talk about it as being yours. We have an irrevocable birthright of eternal life in heaven which makes it ours and it is not something that can be stolen from us, lost or has to be paid for. God have transferred this right to us so we own it, but that does not mean we cannot give it away.

God is not obligating (locking us in) us to heaven by giving us this birthright, since that would not be “Loving” on God’s part, but it is a gift God has given to us. So it is not in any way God’s “fault”, if we of our own free will decide to give up our birthright like Esau gave up his birthright (you would not blame Isaac in any way for Esau giving up his birthright, so neither can you blame God for giving up your birthright).

sdowney717 said:

Bling, reformed and salvation by grace alone people do not believe it is God's intention to save all people, God only saves those He has called.

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Let’s stop right there for a moment. If there is absolutely no “difference” between those God chose to save and those God did not choose to save, why would God be any less interested in those He did not save then those He did save?

Would it be harder for God to “save” everyone, than it is for God to save a few?

If it is no harder for God to save everyone and God has no preference for who He does save, then why would it not be a lack of “Love” for God to just save a few?

bling said:

Let’s stop right there for a moment. If there is absolutely no “difference” between those God chose to save and those God did not choose to save, why would God be any less interested in those He did not save then those He did save?

Would it be harder for God to “save” everyone, than it is for God to save a few?

If it is no harder for God to save everyone and God has no preference for who He does save, then why would it not be a lack of “Love” for God to just save a few?

Click to expand...

God does not just on a whim pick whoever He saves, God always has a reason.
Ephesians 2 says it was because of His love.
1 Peter 1 says it was because of His abundant mercy towards 'us', and the 'us' were described at the beginning of the letter.
That were elect according to God's foreknowing us.

He has caused us to be born again.

1 Peter 1English Standard Version (ESV)
Greeting
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Born Again to a Living Hope
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

To God's elect, who are
Elected according to foreknowledge of God
Elected to be sanctified by the Spirit of God
Elected to be obedient to Jesus Christ
Elected to be sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ.

So then elected to be born again.

Further proof of our eternal salvation
We are born of incorruptible seed according to the Word of the LORD
And we have obeyed the truth through the SPIRIT of God at work on the inside, Him indwelling us caused us to be obedient to His truth. Grace and truth are embodied in Jesus Christ. And one of His promises is He the Spirit of Truth, will live inside us who believe.

Peter makes the point that the word of the Lord endures forever, and so then the gospel is about eternal salvation, never ending life, age enduring and never perishing, just as God is Himself eternally alive, so then are those who are His who He caused to be born again of incorruptible seed.


The Enduring Word
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

sdowney717 said:

Greek word 'pas' can mean all of everything, or some of all types.

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2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) states: 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance'.

Please demonstrate from the Greek lexicons that 'all' (pantas) in 2 Peter 3:9 means 'all types'.

Oz

bottomofsandal said:

I keep asking the same questions because those who believe dead men choose will not answer.

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I believe the problem is that some have answered you question, but you can not hear the answers. The bible says men are "dead" in trespasses and sin. calvinists (including yourself) assume this mean men have no ability to choose, and from there you draw all sorts of conclusions. If you would step back, and re-examine your assumption, you might find the cause for why you have not heard the answers to your question. Your assumption is controlling which answers you will hear; it is not that they have not been given, you just don't have ears to hear them.

sdowney717 said:

God does not just on a whim pick whoever He saves, God always has a reason.
Ephesians 2 says it was because of His love.
1 Peter 1 says it was because of His abundant mercy towards 'us', and the 'us' were described at the beginning of the letter.
That were elect according to God's foreknowing us.

He has caused us to be born again.

1 Peter 1English Standard Version (ESV)
Greeting
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Born Again to a Living Hope
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

To God's elect, who are
Elected according to foreknowledge of God
Elected to be sanctified by the Spirit of God
Elected to be obedient to Jesus Christ
Elected to be sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ.

So then elected to be born again.

Click to expand...

That does not explain in anyway how in your thinking God’s selection is not arbitrary. It is not the fact: God is merciful, God is Love, the elect are born again, or God has foreknowledge of who He elects, but the “arbitrariness” of God’s selection of the elect is in the fact there is no difference between those He elects and those He does not elect. So why does God choose to elect a particular person and choose not to elect another person?