Discussion The great Contradiction of the apostate church .

Alithis · Aug 26, 2016

Again ..the scripture in 1john does not say .."when"you sin ..or watering it down..mess up, You must confess etc.
It says "if".
By changing it to the word "when" a person is declaring that they have the will to sin in the future .they are showing outwardly that they fully intend to commit that certain sin again.
This displays that there is no repentance yet.they have not yet changed thier minds towards God to agree with him and follow him..those that love him obey him.
If your intending to sin ..and by saying "when" you simply show that intent.your showing you havnt yet made up your mind to follow Jesus.
James says a double minded man is unstable in ALL his ways..

If a person does not settle this in thier heart and repent then they will to go back and do what the flesh desires .simplybecause they have not yet decided to take up the cross..crucify the flesh and walk in the freedom Christ has already won for us.
This not condemning ..it is the truth that sets you free.

Alithis · Aug 28, 2016

For you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free

Razare · Sep 2, 2016

Albion said:
Or it's a lifelong process of repenting of one's sins unlike the unsaved who feel no such compulsion.

People think it's a lifelong process because the church has been dysfunctional for known church history, and it continues in this dysfunctional behavior today.

The lifelong process was supposed to immediately arrive at a point where sins are basically no longer exercised by believers. All subsequent growth, was meant to be in the areas of wisdom and revelation... Jesus grew in wisdom, though he were perfect and lived perfect.

I believe in growth as a Christian, but being free of sinning behavior was supposed to not be part of the growth. It was always meant to happen upon salvation and perhaps some renewal of the mind on the basic points in Hebrews 6. And it does if the assembly of believers does their job properly.

Landon Caeli · Sep 2, 2016

Alithis said:
The great Contradiction of the apostate church

"I'm just a sinner saved ! ???

you are either saved .. and a willful sinner
or you are a prisoner to sin and, as yet, unsaved .

you don't get to have it both ways .

Make up your mind,
choose this day whom you will serve .

What church claims that it's okay to continue with a sin..? I know that in my church, you will not be absolved if you intend to do it again.

...Jesus told those who he helped to "go, and sin no more".

Albion · Sep 2, 2016

Razare said:
People think it's a lifelong process because the church has been dysfunctional for known church history, and it continues in this dysfunctional behavior today.

The lifelong process was supposed to immediately arrive at a point where sins are basically no longer exercised by believers.

To the extent that some Christians have posited that it's possible for a believer to achieve a state where he doesn't deliberately commit sin, this doesn't mean that it's not a lifelong process. In fact, it's just the opposite.

I believe in growth as a Christian, but being free of sinning behavior was supposed to not be part of the growth.

No, we do not become instantly sinless and sin-proof upon conversion. We respond by living a changed life, of course, but that's a different matter.

Landon Caeli · Sep 2, 2016

Albion said:
To the extent that some Christians have posited that it's possible for a believer to achieve a state where he doesn't deliberately commit sin, this doesn't mean that it's not a lifelong process. In fact, it's just the opposite.

No, we do not become instantly sinless and sin-proof upon conversion. We respond by living a changed life, of course, but that's a different matter.

What about people who choose to sin, yet still are still grateful for what God has given them. Can they still attend Church even though they know and accept that they won't find salvation?

Albion · Sep 2, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
What about people who choose to sin, yet still are still grateful for what God has given them. Can they still attend Church even though they they know they know they won't find salvation?

What a strange question. I think the first point I'd make is that we do sin.

The idea that conversion makes one sinless and sin-proof isn't correct. So, to that extent, what you wrote here seems to agree...even though I wonder what the point of find the second sentence is.

Landon Caeli · Sep 2, 2016

Albion said:
What a strange question. I think the first point I'd make is that we do sin.

The idea that conversion makes one sinless and sin-proof isn't correct. So, to that extent, what you wrote here seems to agree...even though I wonder what the point of find the second sentence is.

Listen to this song, he says "I must turn down your offer".... One of my personal favorites.

...If you listen to the lyrics by Robert Hunter, you will understand.

Alithis · Sep 4, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
What church claims that it's okay to continue with a sin..? I know that in my church, you will not be absolved if you intend to do it again.

...Jesus told those who he helped to "go, and sin no more".

then pull down your statues your idols and repent of the sin of idolatry .. you say your church .. i don't care what your church does or says .. i care what GOD does and says .
you say your church does not absolve if you intend to sin.. but then it goes on and encourage people to continue in sin by not renouncing its Mary worship. so the hypocrisy is rotten throughout .renounce Mary to follow Jesus .. you cant serve two masters.

Alithis · Sep 4, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
What about people who choose to sin, yet still are still grateful for what God has given them. Can they still attend Church even though they know and accept that they won't find salvation?

attending a man made organisation nicknamed "church" ..,like going to any other club .. will not save any one

Alithis · Sep 4, 2016

Albion said:
To the extent that some Christians have posited that it's possible for a believer to achieve a state where he doesn't deliberately commit sin, this doesn't mean that it's not a lifelong process. In fact, it's just the opposite.

No, we do not become instantly sinless and sin-proof upon conversion. We respond by living a changed life, of course, but that's a different matter.

can we explore that ... we do not achieve any state .. we are positioned into that state by grace .. thus we are free
what then shal we do with that freedom .. go and purposely sin again that action we know is sin ? of course not . yet that is the message that many many churches send .. intended or not . simply because they fear losing adherents and thus "$income$ .
and if we are positioned by grace into a state of freedom from the power of sin.. wat power can make us sin again without our wil? nothing .
so as i have said often ..it is not that a Christian "cant " sin ... but that they have no excuse to do so . they cannot say it has power over me . they cannot say ..i'm just a sinner .. that is what an unsaved person admits in the process of becoming saved ,if we are still saying that .... we are saying we are not yet saved .
so which is it ? sinner .. or saved ? because it cannot be both .

Albion · Sep 4, 2016

Alithis said:
can we explore that ... we do not achieve any state .. we are positioned into that state by grace

Into a state of being sinless and capable of never sinning again? I'd agree that we are forgiven, thanks to Faith by Grace, but not this other proposition.

thus we are free
what then shal we do with that freedom .. go and purposely sin again that action we know is sin ? of course not . yet that is the message that many many churches send .. intended or not . simply because they fear losing adherents and thus "$income$ .

I hear that a lot but don't now any churches that actually do that.

so as i have said often ..it is not that a Christian "cant " sin

Ah, then we are in agreement on that.

... but that they have no excuse to do so . they cannot say it has power over me . they cannot say ..i'm just a sinner .. that is what an unsaved person admits in the process of becoming saved ,if we are still saying that .... we are saying we are not yet saved .

OK

so which is it ? sinner .. or saved ? because it cannot be both .

It's both.

Landon Caeli · Sep 4, 2016

Alithis said:
attending a man made organisation nicknamed "church" ..,like going to any other club .. will not save any one

That's not what I was talking about. I said people who choose sin over life saving grace can still attend Mass or "services" out of respect for God, or for whatever reason they may choose... But repeatedly bearing false witness will destroy any kind of salvation for you, unless you repent of it.

Proverbs 19:5

A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.

Alithis · Sep 5, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
That's not what I was talking about. I said people who choose sin over life saving grace can still attend Mass or "services" out of respect for God, or for whatever reason they may choose... But repeatedly bearing false witness will destroy any kind of salvation for you, unless you repent of it.

Proverbs 19:5

A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.

Exacty...and that is a huge part if the very contradiction being spoken of.
No where does the scripture say go to a man made organisation for a mass and submit to that organisationand all its rebellious idolatrous controlling Sin.
It is the epitome of the contradiction.
I want no part with it .

Alithis · Sep 5, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
I hope you beg God to pardon your blasphemous sins for unsulting his Church and outright false witness that you do in accusing Catholics of "worshipping" anyone other than God Himself. Your words are straight from hell, and I do hope you repent for your wicked lies... The devil is a liar, and all lies come from him.

Lol i read the bible.. His ecclesia..his called out ones,gather unto Jesus..not unto rome or man or pope.
His body is made up of all those in whom the holy Spirit dwells ,it is they that do His will ,not romes will.
Jesus said you cant serve two masters.cant serve the lord jesus and rome at the same time.
You show yoor heart and worship and allegiance is to romes church...
Its appears not to be to the lord jesus ...
If it were you would not defend rome over Jesus .
Just come to us and our mass you say and you will be ok...
No Such words in the entire bible. No mary worship(you call it veneration) ,no pope.no mass ,no idols ,none of it are instructed by Jesus nor his deciples.
The great contradiction in all its deciet began and continues in rome.

Alithis · Sep 5, 2016

Albion said:
Into a state of being sinless and capable of never sinning again? I'd agree that we are forgiven, thanks to Faith by Grace, but not this other proposition.

Its not a proposition..its scripture.
For if you have been set free ..what can compell you beyond your will to do an act you know to be sin ? Remember
We speak of unambiguous sin .
For example..what can force you to go ..click on a link and watch some inappropriate content (which is adultory) ...there is no power in heaven and earth that can make you do that beyond your own will.. Noe ever do so again.
Jesus came to save us out of sin ..and whom he sets free is free. So none cam imprison him again except who..?himself.
For to whom You yourself yeild your own members to obey ..his servants you are. ..so only we can do that to our selves...
And though we "can" we never e
EVer have to again.
And if one is made a new creature in christ..one Cannot say ...they do it because they are only a sinner saved... Because they deny the word of god that says they are that new creation ..
If theycontinue to practice that sin.john states it shows they are of the devil not of god..for one who is born of god cannot continue to practice sin... But they who continue to practice it..show they are not of god.
In this case i used inappropriate content as an example but idolatry is another..amoung the absolutes.
You see im not speaking of the ambiguous .

Alithis · Sep 5, 2016

Albion said:
Into a state of being sinless and capable of never sinning again? I'd agree that we are forgiven, thanks to Faith by Grace, but not this other proposition.

I hear that a lot but don't now any churches that actually do that.

Ah, then we are in agreement on that.

OK

It's both.

If it were both..then there is no repentance
And without repentance there is no forgivness of sin .

VanillaSunflowers · Sep 5, 2016

Alithis said:
The great Contradiction of the apostate church

"I'm just a sinner saved ! ???

you are either saved .. and a willful sinner
or you are a prisoner to sin and, as yet, unsaved .

you don't get to have it both ways .

Make up your mind,
choose this day whom you will serve .

Are you charging a particular denominational church as apostate? Or the body of Christ believers as a whole and those who meet your criteria for the label of apostate?

Albion · Sep 5, 2016

Alithis said:
Its not a proposition..its scripture.

The Scriptures do not say that, upon conversion, you become incapable of ever sinning again. :sigh:

Landon Caeli · Sep 5, 2016

Alithis said:
Lol i read the bible.. His ecclesia..his called out ones,gather unto Jesus..not unto rome or man or pope.
His body is made up of all those in whom the holy Spirit dwells ,it is they that do His will ,not romes will.
Jesus said you cant serve two masters.cant serve the lord jesus and rome at the same time.
You show yoor heart and worship and allegiance is to romes church...
Its appears not to be to the lord jesus ...
If it were you would not defend rome over Jesus .
Just come to us and our mass you say and you will be ok...
No Such words in the entire bible. No mary worship(you call it veneration) ,no pope.no mass ,no idols ,none of it are instructed by Jesus nor his deciples.
The great contradiction in all its deciet began and continues in rome.

Who do you learn from? I suspect you live in a place that is dangerous for Christians, which is why you say you do not gather unto "men"... This leads me to believe that you are a self-taught Christian, belonging to no congregation at all. Perhaps you live in Turkey or maybe Indonesia?

....I'm not criticizing this by the way, but I will warn you, that if you do use the internet alongside your scripture then you might reconsider some of your internet sources. That's all. There is a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment on the internet that you should be skeptical of. And do not use the Islamic mindset of faith-bashing found on that side of the world either -both you should be cautious of.

Jesus is known to not criticize any of those who have gathered in his name.

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