Why Acceptance of the Genesis Account is Extremely Important For Christians

BobRyan said: ↑
As for life beyond earth ... created life beyond earth ... well we know that Angels do in fact "exist". And I think we all would agree to that.

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JackRT said:

Do we really know that or do we believe that?

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Jipsah said:

It's an SDA article of faith based on their curious traditions.

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The goofy theology that embraces deny-all for things like "do angels exist" is such an extreme -- that few on this board will dare to go that far out on a limb.

ViaCrucis said:

I also have a "vehement almost fanatical defense" of a round earth, and a heliocentric solar system. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles mentioned round-earthism or heliocentrism--so is it wrong of me to defend a round earth and a heliocentric model against those who say the earth is flat or that the sun moves around the earth?

Or is it only a problem when I defend the science you personally don't agree with?

-CryptoLutheran

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Utter nonsense.

There is no Bible statement in the form of legal code where God speaks as in Ex 20 saying "the Earth is Flat - I the Lord have said it".

So the utter nonsense that tries out the logical fallacy of gross equivocation between that and the actual Bible statement in Ex 20:11 about the literal 7 day week - fails ... and cannot be taken seriously by any objective unbiased reader.

This is glaringly obvious to all of us.

Hieronymus said:

There are no other worlds, Genesis 1:1 and on...

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Genesis 1:1 says "the heavens and the earth" -- does the term "heavens" include suns... solar systems... galaxies in your view?

If not then I still bet you will agree that a great many other Christians who accept a literal 7 day creation week in Genesis 1-2 ... would consider that the term "heavens" in Genesis 1:1 includes suns... solar systems... galaxies "and all that is in them".


Heb 11
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

BobRyan said:

It's called "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.

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Except for Investigative Judgement, the imposition of the Law on Gentile believers, and the curious belief in Spacemen, all of which are embraced by SDA on the basis of doctrinal tradition alone with no Scriptural basis.

Hint - Ex 20:11 debunks blind faith evolutionism just like Genesis 1:2-2:4.

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Whatever "blind faith evolutionism" is, anyway. Do whales speak French>

Your suggestion that believing the Bible is some odd idea that only SDA Christians have

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I have no such belief about SDAs. The Bible is simply a point of departure for them to add their own traditions on top of. And as we've seen in other threads, SDAs feel the need to deny the literal words of our Lord Christ Himself if it conflicts with their doctrinal traditions.

- has been debunked by every Bible believing Christian on this thread so far.

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"Debunked" meaning responded to with canned doctrinal positions of the sects involved.

So.. .enjoy the thread.

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I'm enjoying the displays of hypocrisy from those who say "You must take this OT scripture literally, but you must not take these words of our Lord, God Incarnate, literally. Your doctrines must be defended, even against Scripture if necessary. Yep, this is very educational. <Laugh>

BobRyan said:

You are holding the facts of the discussion at too great a distance when you say that. If you pay attention to the details you will see that you have no basis at all for imagining that accepting the Bible statements on a literal virgin birth, a literal resurrection of Christ, a literal 7 day creation week and a literal world wide flood do not destroy science in the least.

Your argument is essentially that if God does what He claims to do then 2+2 cannot equal 4... which no objective reader is going to accept.

In your faith in evolutionism's doctrine on origins asserting that an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time given a sufficiently talented amoeba and a sufficiently long and talented period of time filled with much-imagined just-so improbable stories .. so misplaced faith. it is not science at all.

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you know if your going to critizie my acceptence of something might behoove you to understand what it actually says.

I accept the bible because I know it's true, just as I accept evolution, I understand evolution, how it works, how it makes things work and have studied it. Might help if you actually attacked what evolution says and what information we have for it.

Radrook said:

The planets they discover around other stars aren't worlds?
http://www.space.com/17738-exoplanets.html

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I meant Genesis 1:1 reads "In the beginning God created the Heaven(s) and the earth."
That's 1 earth, which He forms and prepares to put life on.
The other living beings are the angels, which He does not put on earth.
And i.m.o. planets are planets, not worlds or earths.

BobRyan said:

Genesis 1:1 says "the heavens and the earth" -- does the term "heavens" include suns... solar systems... galaxies in your view?

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According to Genesis those were put in there on the 4th day.

"Heavens" (or skies) could well be the quantum matrix to put / manifest things in, like stars and galaxies
and even the earth itself.

If not then I still bet you will agree that a great many other Christians who accept a literal 7 day creation week in Genesis 1-2 ... would consider that the term "heavens" in Genesis 1:1 includes suns... solar systems... galaxies "and all that is in them".


Heb 11
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

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I would have to find out what words were used and what they mean in those verses.
For all i know it could mean 'realities' or 'societies' (cultures) or ... ?

Genesis 1:1
in the summit Elohiym fattened the skies and the land,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

The original wording just says skies.

I don't see why that would have to include all other galaxies out there, I always assumed it was only this earth, and everything around it---just this galaxy. There are countless galaxies out there, He is from everlasting to everlasting-----He made countless angels before this world and I doubt He just made them for nothing. They're His messengers. He has a purpose for them before this world was created. I see no reason to think He spent eons and eons doing nothing and all of a sudden in one day created millions of galaxies---I don't think so. That He made others long before ours just makes more sense.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


The sons of God are gathered---and Satan went also--seems to exclude him from being one of those. He is questioned as to where he came form and he says earth. Seems like a gathering of others from other worlds with Satan as representing this earth as he is called the prince of this world.
There are some rather perverse individuals who like to mock and put people down and have decided that because I said this, that SDA's believe in "spacemen"--that's rather twisting what is being said in order to put another's believes down. This is not something that I have ever discussed with the "church"--it is my personal opinion, and some other denominations have also said the same thing. Flying saucers and all that is not what anyone is saying---just stating what those verses are implying. That, and God is the Creator, He loves variety--there's enough of it just on this world and the stars and planets in this galaxy are all very different from each other. It makes no sense for that kind of a Creator to have done nothing but this galaxy with life on it. I may like to imagine what other beings He may have created out there, but that is my own personal ideas and wonderings and have nothing to do with stated doctrine from the church.
Instead of vain blustering and mocking put downs, some common sense and scripture would be a preferred response from other Christians.

BobRyan said: ↑
Genesis 1:1 says "the heavens and the earth" -- does the term "heavens" include suns... solar systems... galaxies in your view?

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Hieronymus said:

According to Genesis those were put in there on the 4th day.

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Only two lights in the sky are made on day 4 -- the sun and the moon. The parenthetical note for day 4 is that God is also the creator of the stars - but does not say that a zillion and two lights are made - just two lights on day 4.


I still bet you will agree that a great many other Christians who accept a literal 7 day creation week in Genesis 1-2 ... would consider that the term "heavens" in Genesis 1:1 includes suns... solar systems... galaxies "and all that is in them".


Heb 11
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hieronymus said:

I would have to find out what words were used and what they mean in those verses.
For all i know it could mean 'realities' or 'societies' (cultures) or ... ?

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Can't all of Genesis be "spiritualized away" -- using that method

For example in Rev 18 "every unclean and hateful bird" references wicked people and wicked spirits that fill Babylon - the false religious system.

So then shall we "redefine the word bird" or fowl in Genesis 1 to mean good-vs-bad people?

We could find a way to spiritualize away all of it using that method.

in any case your statement that cultures and societies are made in Genesis 1:1 - begs the question - what "air" did they breathe? If those cultures were created before there is air on earth?

in Christ,

Bob

mmksparbud said:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


The sons of God are gathered---and Satan went also--seems to exclude him from being one of those. He is questioned as to where he came form and he says earth. Seems like a gathering of others from other worlds with Satan as representing this earth as he is called the prince of this world. .

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good point

mmksparbud said:

There are some rather perverse individuals who like to mock and put people down and have decided that because I said this, that SDA's believe in "spacemen"--that's rather twisting what is being said in order to put another's believes down. .

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So then --- do they view angels as "spacemen" because they do not originate from earth???

BobRyan said:

Only two lights in the sky are made on day 4 -- the sun and the moon.

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Genesis 1:16 tells us He also made the stars on the 4th day.
In all, there is 1 earth.

BobRyan said:

Hebrews 11:3 Hebrews 1:2

I would have to find out what words were used and what they mean in those verses.
For all i know it could mean 'realities' or 'societies' (cultures) or ... ?

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Can't all of Genesis be "spiritualized away" -- using that method

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No, why?
Earth and world mean different things.
We would have to study the text to be more certain, haven't done that yet..

The biblical cosmology of Genesis was that of a flat circular earth with a hemispherical dome (firmament) overhead with waters above and waters below. This was the entire universe to them . The sun and moon together with the stars and planets (wandering stars) were merely lights within the firmament. There was absolutely no concept of spherical planets that were earth sized or very much larger or of solar systems or of galaxies made up of trillions of individual stars. Their universe was very much smaller and simpler.

Hieronymus said:

We would have to study the text to be more certain, haven't done that yet..

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That was given in post 250.
ha'sha'ma'yim is the original word--- just means sky.
Genesis 1:1
in the summit Elohiym fattened the skies and the land,

he~did~FATTEN (Verb)
(The skies and land are "fattened" In the sense of being "filled up.")
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

So that is to say--He filled the skies and the land--the land would, of course, be this earth, this world. Filling the skies, can mean filling it with all that is in the skies. But the creation is about the creation of this world and whatever goes with it, which would include this galaxy as it all works together.

Genesis 1:16
and Elohiym made two of the great luminaries, the great luminary for the regulation of the day, and the small luminary for the regulation of the night, and the stars,
ha'ko'kha'vim
the~STAR~s
(The phrase "and the stars" is grammatically and contextually out of place and appears to have been added to the text. In addition, the Dead Sea Scroll of Genesis does not include this phrase.)

Genesis 1:17
and Elohiym placed them in the sheet of the skies to make light upon the land,

Genesis 1:18
and to regulate in the day and in the night, and to make a separation between the light and the darkness, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,
Genesis 1:19
and evening existed and morning existed, a fourth day,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

mmksparbud said:

That was given in post 250.
ha'sha'ma'yim is the original word--- just means sky.
Genesis 1:1
in the summit Elohiym fattened the skies and the land,

he~did~FATTEN (Verb)
(The skies and land are "fattened" In the sense of being "filled up.")
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

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That's interesting.
I tend to assume 'the heavens / skies' may refer to the quantum matrix (or soup) which He stretched out to be filled with his Creations.

http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

So that is to say--He filled the skies and the land--the land would, of course, be this earth, this world. Filling the skies, can mean filling it with all that is in the skies. But the creation is about the creation of this world and whatever goes with it, which would include this galaxy as it all works together.

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And that would include the universe then, with all it's laws of nature.

Genesis 1:16
and Elohiym made two of the great luminaries, the great luminary for the regulation of the day, and the small luminary for the regulation of the night, and the stars,
ha'ko'kha'vim
the~STAR~s
(The phrase "and the stars" is grammatically and contextually out of place and appears to have been added to the text. In addition, the Dead Sea Scroll of Genesis does not include this phrase.)

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I didn't know that. That's interesting.

Genesis 1:17
and Elohiym placed them in the sheet of the skies to make light upon the land,

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inary for the regulation of the night, and the stars,

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Genesis 1:18
and to regulate in the day and in the night, and to make a separation between the light and the darkness, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,
Genesis 1:19
and evening existed and morning existed, a fourth day,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

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No 'stars' then.
But in Job God claims the stars are part of his Creation though..

But what are your thoughts on Hebrews 11:3 and Hebrews 1:2 concerning the "worlds"?

Hieronymus said:

And that would include the universe then, with all it's laws of nature

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I don't see why it would include other galaxies--just this one. This earth is affected by the gravitational pulls of other planets--we have our laws on this galaxy, other galaxies may have their onw laws, different from ours, who knows. They do not affect us. I just believe He created whatever influences this world. Even within this world, laws can be quite contradictory. It is always so that the closer you are to the core of the source of heat, the hotter it becomes, yet, they have measured the heat of the sun and it is hotter on the peripheral than in the core---doesn't make sense. Just in the medical field, to every rule, there is always some individual that will do the complete opposite of what they're supposed to. I was a dialysis tech for over 20 years, working in the hospitals, including ICU's and Neonatal---always some who would present problems the total opposite of what you'd expect.

God is a creator God. He had eons and eons in which to create other worlds---doesn't mean He had to create them when He created this one. Many galaxies could have been created before ours, or after ours. The bible doesn't talk about when He did anything, just that He did it. I tend to think of this world as this planet and all it's corresponding planets and stars and other worlds as other galaxies apart from ours.

mmksparbud said:

I don't see why it would include other galaxies--just this one. This earth is affected by the gravitational pulls of other planets--we have our laws on this galaxy, other galaxies may have their onw laws, different from ours, who knows.

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Scientists in that field have an idea though.
They conclude it's all one universe.
It's our space-time reality.
We observe a red shift, (which by the way seems to indicate that we're in the centre of the universe).

Mind you, the really baffling complex stuff is what we find in living nature.
So life on earth shows much more of God's handiwork than the universe does.

They do not affect us. I just believe He created whatever influences this world. Even within this world, laws can be quite contradictory. It is always so that the closer you are to the core of the source of heat, the hotter it becomes, yet, they have measured the heat of the sun and it is hotter on the peripheral than in the core---doesn't make sense. Just in the medical field, to every rule, there is always some individual that will do the complete opposite of what they're supposed to. I was a dialysis tech for over 20 years, working in the hospitals, including ICU's and Neonatal---always some who would present problems the total opposite of what you'd expect.

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That's people jumping to conclusions..

God is a creator God. He had eons and eons in which to create other worlds---doesn't mean He had to create them when He created this one.

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Since time is a property of the universe and God is above / beyond time, your point is problematic.
Time in the Bible starts at Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning", and that's where the counting of the days start.
But who knows these things? You could be right.

But what are your ideas on Hebrews 11:3 and Hebrews 1:2 concerning the "worlds"?
Can the mean "earths" or not?

Hieronymus said:

But what are your ideas on Hebrews 11:3 and Hebrews 1:2 concerning the "worlds"?
Can the mean "earths" or not?

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(Heb 11:3 ABP+) By beliefG4102 we comprehendG3539 [3to be fashionedG2675 1theG3588 2eons]G165 by the wordG4487 of God,G2316 so thatG1519 G3588 not ofG3361 G1537 things appearingG5316 [2the things G3588 3seenG991 1take place].G1096

(Heb 11:3 LITV) By faith we understand the ages to have been framed by the Word of God, so that the things seen should not come into being out of things that appear.

(Heb 1:2 ABP+) inG1909 [2lastG2078 G3588 3daysG2250 1these]G3778 spokeG2980 to usG1473 byG1722 the son,G5207 whomG3739 he establishedG5087 heirG2818 of all things ,G3956 throughG1223 whomG3739 alsoG2532 [2theG3588 3eonsG165 1he made];G4160

(Heb 1:2 LITV) in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;


(Heb 1:2 KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 11:3 KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

(Heb 1:2 LITV) in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;


I still say God made everything--just doesn't say when. He made this world, and all others.