2017

ken777 said in post 94:

The first resurrection is of the Christian elect over the past nearly 2,000 years.

Click to expand...

Note that while there is the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it won't occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

ken777 said in post 94:

This brings in what the mark of the beast (in the forehead and in the right hand) really is - it has been in operation ever since the first church (1 John 4:3).

Click to expand...

Note that the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will also be visible because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason that people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded by the Antichrist, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, 2 thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he is YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he is Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.

ken777 said in post 94:

The reason there is so much confusion about the rapture is because there are these two groups of Christians in the Church. Those who are "worthy to escape all these things" (Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10) and those who will go through the Tribulation (Revelation 7:14).

Click to expand...

Regarding Luke 21:36, note that it doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Luke17:37 said in post 95:

God will keep a remnant of faithful believers alive until He comes after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Click to expand...

That's right.

Also, while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After this 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

Riberra said in post 97:

God will have made sure that a at least a group of humans will never take the mark of the beast. This is the woman who flee in the wilderness under God's protection where she is nourished during the 42 months reign of the beast..

Click to expand...

Regarding the woman in Revelation 12, note that she represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

ken777 said:

I cannot know which will occur first - my demise or Jesus' return - so I think it is wise to anticipate both events.

The argument that previous generations were wrong does not suggest we should not expect our Lord's return because there are Biblical prophecies being fulfilled in our (at least my) lifetime, such as such as Matthew 24:14, Luke 21:24, Luke 17:28, & Daniel 12:4.

I believe it is also wrong to suggest that those looking for the return of Jesus Christ in their lifetime are less motivated to work for the kingdom of God. Most will tell you that it encourages them to greater efforts.

Click to expand...

Daniel 12:4 almost sounds like it could have even referred to the invention of the printing press, since knowledge was able to be increased then. Or when cars were invented, or even when boats became more frequent so knowledge could spread. People doing things as in the days of Lot has likely been around in some form for a while too. The only one I feel isn't really vague is Luke 21:24, since its talking about the Jews being downtrodden by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

CrystalDragon said:

Daniel 12:4 almost sounds like it could have even referred to the invention of the printing press, since knowledge was able to be increased then. Or when cars were invented, or even when boats became more frequent so knowledge could spread. People doing things as in the days of Lot has likely been around in some form for a while too. The only one I feel isn't really vague is Luke 21:24, since its talking about the Jews being downtrodden by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Click to expand...

I agree. Technically, Jerusalem is still downtrodden by Gentiles. Jerusalem is divided into four quadrants--Jewish, Muslim, Armenian and "Christian" (whatever that means... who knows their ethnic background). The Muslims have control of Northeastern/Eastern Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount. So we are still in the times of the Gentiles.

ken777 said:

I cannot know which will occur first - my demise or Jesus' return - so I think it is wise to anticipate both events.

Click to expand...

Whatever floats your boat.

The argument that previous generations were wrong does not suggest we should not expect our Lord's return because there are Biblical prophecies being fulfilled in our (at least my) lifetime, such as such as Matthew 24:14, Luke 21:24, Luke 17:28, & Daniel 12:4.

Click to expand...

Well, first of all, Paul, writing under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, infallibly testifies that Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in his lifetime, by the mid 60's AD:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

Next, if you compare Luke 21:24 with it's parallel Revelation 11:2 we see that the "time of the Gentiles" was a period lasting 42 months from beginning to end:

COMPARE THIS:

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

TO THIS:

Revelation 11:2
But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

This is not something that began in the 1st century and continues on today. It is a SPECIFIC siege and it is past.

Luke 17:28 has been a constant reality, and was most definitely a true description of the 1st century AD
It's basically a Barnum statement that can be applied to any generation at any time, so is hardly indicative of our generation alone as you seem to be suggesting

Daniel 12:4 is another barnum statement that can clearly be interpreted as fulfilled in the 1st century, or with the printing press, or the internet, or in an even greater fashion 500 years from now when we've colonized the solar system...
One thing to notice is Daniel was told to seal up his vision for the time for it's fulfillment was FAR AWAY, but John was told not to seal it for THE TIME WAS NEAR.... it's 500 years from Daniel to John, 2000 years from John to today.

2 Peter 3:8 can not account for 2500 years being FAR AWAY but 2000 years being NEAR.

Conversely, when taken LITERALLY, it would be correct to call 500 years FAR AWAY to Daniel, and 3 or 4 years NEAR to John.

I believe it is also wrong to suggest that those looking for the return of Jesus Christ in their lifetime are less motivated to work for the kingdom of God. Most will tell you that it encourages them to greater efforts.

Click to expand...

Greater Efforts to do what? Work to make the world a better place? Work to Bring about the Peace of Christ's Kingdom on earth today?

That has been the opposite of my experience with most who believe that.
Most who believe the world is about to end don't lift a finger to make the world better, for it goes against their belief that the World is destined to get worse and worse before Jesus returns, and that Christians are powerless to do anything about it.

Indeed they often will even attempt to hasten its demise... they don't care to lift a finger toward mitigating climate change, pollution, enhancing workers or human rights, wealth inequality, poverty, even voting.... most "end time activists" I know have removed themselves from any sort of Civic duty or responsibility to be good stewards of Creation since they expect it to all burn to a crisp in the next decade or so...

You don't polish the brass on a sinking ship after all.....

CrystalDragon said in post 107:

Daniel 12:4 almost sounds like it could have even referred to the invention of the printing press, since knowledge was able to be increased then.

Click to expand...

Or even long before then. For note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written down in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

CrystalDragon said in post 107:

The only one I feel isn't really vague is Luke 21:24, since its talking about the Jews being downtrodden by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Click to expand...

The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

Luke 21:24 wasn't (as is sometimes claimed) fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD. For it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

ken777 said in post 112:

Regarding your linking of Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2, how does the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 feature in this?

Click to expand...

Good question.

For in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like how, for example, Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could be alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

ken777 said:

Are you suggesting that when Jesus said "all nations" in Matthew 24:14 He meant only the area Paul covered in his ministry? That interpretation would place a very different slant on "all nations" in Matthew 25:32, Matthew 28:19, & Luke 24:47.

Click to expand...

And what of Acts 2:5?
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit and Jesus have a different understanding of "all nations" and "the Whole world" from one another?

Luke 17:28 and Daniel 12:4 have very specific relevance to the present day world (see post #110).

Click to expand...

And will have even GREATER, more specific relevance to our society in 500 years....

And speaking of Daniel 12:4, you didn't comment on why 2500 years is considered FAR OFF to God, but 2000 years is considered NEAR.
Would you care to?
What makes 2500 years FAR AWAY and a long time off, but 2000 years NEAR and close at hand?

The "times of the Gentiles" is best understood as a period similar to that of the "fullness of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:25).

Click to expand...

No, they are completely separate.
The Fulness of the gentiles is a quality, not a quantity.
By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fullness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fullness" is considered here to be the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fullness in the NT carries the idea of "totality of Gods blessings and grace", and not a certain number of people.

Gentile believers are not waiting to become "full partakers" of the Grace of God, rather The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.

The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

I'm not sure what an "end time activist" is but most people who are looking for the soon return of Jesus Christ are just like me ... giving their time & money to help others in need, working at the personal level of the "good Samaritan", which I believe is more Scriptural than the overt political activity you appear to be advocating.

Click to expand...

Civil Government is ordained of God (Rom 13:1-7; 1 Pet 2:13-17). Scripture shows the victory and liberty that awaits us whenever we lead as magistrates (Gen 41:39-44; Daniel 2:46-49) and elect godly leaders (Ex 18:21-25/Deut 1:13-17/Deut 16:18-20).

ken777 said:

All of Jerusalem is under the control of the Israeli government and the Israeli Defence Forces. Even Temple Mount is controlled by the IDF.
View attachment 181764

Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel
Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel.
Knesset

Click to expand...

Yes, Jerusalem is under the control of the multi-ethnic, secular, democratic government of Modern Day Israel.

A government which has ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy of the 1st century.
Not religiously, not politically, not genetically.

parousia70 said in post 115:

What makes 2500 years FAR AWAY and a long time off, but 2000 years NEAR and close at hand?

Click to expand...

Note that a time can be "long" (Daniel 10:1) from the viewpoint of men, and yet short from the viewpoint of God (2 Peter 3:8).

For example, in Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a 1st century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events which wouldn't occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus' 1st coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' 1st coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

parousia70 said in post 115:

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number" . . .

Click to expand...

Note that Romans 11:25 doesn't have to say "until the fulness (pleroma) of the number of the Gentiles be come in", in order to mean that, just as, for example, Revelation 6:11 doesn't have to say "until the number of their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled (pleroo)", in order to mean that. For pleroo (upon which pleroma is based) can refer to the fullness of a number (Acts 7:23).

Also, the Greek noun pleroma (fullness) doesn't by itself require that it has already happened. For it can be employed with reference to a future fullness, just like its verb form pleroo can refer to the future (Luke 1:20b).

Also, while the spiritual fullness of some Gentiles was already a past event (Acts 10:45) when Paul the apostle wrote his letter (Romans) to the church in Rome, that couldn't have been the fullness of the Gentiles referred to in Romans 11:25, because the blinded part of Israel was still blind (enemies of the gospel) (Romans 11:28) when Paul wrote Romans; and Romans 11:25 means that the blindness will be lifted at the time of the fullness of the Gentiles.

In Romans 11:25, when Paul says "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), the original Greek verb translated as "be come in" is not in the present tense, as if the fullness of the Gentiles had already occurred at the time that Paul wrote Romans. Instead, "be come in" is in the aorist tense, subjunctive mood, for there is an "until" preceding it. The fullness of the Gentiles has not already come in, and the blindness in part that has happened to Israel will continue "until" the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

CrystalDragon said:

If WW1 and WW2 were meant to be the catalyst, then the end times probably would have happened decades ago. And as far as some thinking the frequency of natural disasters increasing, don't you think it could just be an easier spread of information in the past 15-20 years thanks to the Internet and social media?

Click to expand...

The parable of the fig tree is the controlling factor as far as when all of the end times prophecies are complete. Right we are heading toward a period which they will happen in rapid succession.

Since Jesus cursed the fig tree for not bearing fruit when he was about to enter Jerusalem that last passover week which he was put to death and rose again, Jerusalem is the fig tree. So that eliminates that the end times prophecies of the Antichrist, great tribulation, etc happening within decades following WWII.

The generation that sees Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews will not pass away. So what that means if 1967+70 years for a generation = 2037 as the most, all the prophecies will be completed. And if we take away 7 years, 2030 at the most will be the time of the Antichrist.

The good news is that there is light at the end of the tunnel from the troubles of this world for them who are looking for Jesus.