Question about 16:15

TG123

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have another question from the Quran. Verse 16:15 seems to be talking about mountains, and the Sahih International translation states:

"And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided,"

Other translations I see state that He set up on the earth mountains, fixed the mountains on the earth, affixed them into the earth.http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=16&verse=15

Do you know which, if any, of these translations is correct? And what does the word "cast" mean here?

Many thanks and God bless.
 

TG123

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Some more questions on this topic

If there are Muslims here who speak Arabic, can you please also tell me:

1) Do you know if the Hadith below is genuine? If so, how is "upon it" correctly translated?
Does it mean "get on it"? "Get in it"? What does it really say?

Anas bin Malik narrated that:
The Prophet said: “When Allah created the earth, it started shaking. So He created the mountains, and said to them: ‘Upon it’ so it began to settle. The angels were amazed at the strength of the mountains, so they said: ‘O Lord! Is there among your creatures one who is more severe than the mountains?’ He said: ‘Yes. Iron.’ They said: ‘O Lord! Then is there anything among your creatures that is more severe than that iron?’ He said: ‘Yes. Fire.’ S they said: ‘O Lord! Is there anything among your creatures that is more severe than fire?’ He said: ‘Yes. Water.’ They said: ‘O Lord! Is there anything among your creatures that is more severe than water?’ He said: ‘Yes. Wind.’ They said: ‘O Lord! Is there anything among your creatures more severe than wind?’ He said: ‘Yes. The son of Adam. He gives charity with his right hands, while hiding it from his left.’”

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ، حَدَّثَنَا الْعَوَّامُ بْنُ حَوْشَبٍ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ أَبِي سُلَيْمَانَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لَمَّا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ الأَرْضَ جَعَلَتْ تَمِيدُ فَخَلَقَ الْجِبَالَ فَعَادَ بِهَا عَلَيْهَا فَاسْتَقَرَّتْ فَعَجِبَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِنْ شِدَّةِ الْجِبَالِ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ هَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْجِبَالِ قَالَ نَعَمِ الْحَدِيدُ ‏.‏ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْحَدِيدِ قَالَ نَعَمِ النَّارُ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ النَّارِ قَالَ نَعَمِ الْمَاءُ ‏.‏ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْمَاءِ قَالَ نَعَمْ الرِّيحُ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الرِّيحِ قَالَ نَعَمِ ابْنُ آدَمَ تَصَدَّقَ بِصَدَقَةٍ بِيَمِينِهِ يُخْفِيهَا مِنْ شِمَالِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ غَرِيبٌ لاَ نَعْرِفُهُ مَرْفُوعًا إِلاَّ مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ ‏.‏
Grade : Hasan (Darussalam)
English reference : Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3369
Arabic reference : Book 47, Hadith 3695

2) What does it mean that the mountains are as pegs?

78:6,7
Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
And the mountains as pegs?

http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=78

Thanks so much!
 
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Limo

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have another question from the Quran. Verse 16:15 seems to be talking about mountains, and the Sahih International translation states:

"And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided,"

Other translations I see state that He set up on the earth mountains, fixed the mountains on the earth, affixed them into the earth.http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=16&verse=15

Do you know which, if any, of these translations is correct? And what does the word "cast" mean here?

Many thanks and God bless.
There is no translation for Quran. We can have translation for the meaning.
I'm not so experienced in English. I'll try to help
The meaning of the verse is: The surface of the land was unstable, moving like a ship تميد then Allah created "Settlers". Most properly these settlers are explained as the big mountains that stabilized the surface of the earth so that it's stable.

I'm not sure if the word "cast" is an accurate or suitable translation of the meaning of ألقى.
It can be something like distribute/scatter/discrete
Regards
 
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Limo

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Some more questions on this topic

If there are Muslims here who speak Arabic, can you please also tell me:

1) Do you know if the Hadith below is genuine? If so, how is "upon it" correctly translated?
Does it mean "get on it"? "Get in it"? What does it really say?

Anas bin Malik narrated that:
The Prophet said: “When Allah created the earth, it started shaking. So He created the mountains, and said to them: ‘Upon it’ so it began to settle. The angels were amazed at the strength of the mountains, so they said: ‘O Lord! Is there among your creatures one who is more severe than the mountains?’ He said: ‘Yes. Iron.’ They said: ‘O Lord! Then is there anything among your creatures that is more severe than that iron?’ He said: ‘Yes. Fire.’ S they said: ‘O Lord! Is there anything among your creatures that is more severe than fire?’ He said: ‘Yes. Water.’ They said: ‘O Lord! Is there anything among your creatures that is more severe than water?’ He said: ‘Yes. Wind.’ They said: ‘O Lord! Is there anything among your creatures more severe than wind?’ He said: ‘Yes. The son of Adam. He gives charity with his right hands, while hiding it from his left.’”

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ، حَدَّثَنَا الْعَوَّامُ بْنُ حَوْشَبٍ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ أَبِي سُلَيْمَانَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لَمَّا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ الأَرْضَ جَعَلَتْ تَمِيدُ فَخَلَقَ الْجِبَالَ فَعَادَ بِهَا عَلَيْهَا فَاسْتَقَرَّتْ فَعَجِبَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِنْ شِدَّةِ الْجِبَالِ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ هَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْجِبَالِ قَالَ نَعَمِ الْحَدِيدُ ‏.‏ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْحَدِيدِ قَالَ نَعَمِ النَّارُ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ النَّارِ قَالَ نَعَمِ الْمَاءُ ‏.‏ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْمَاءِ قَالَ نَعَمْ الرِّيحُ قَالُوا يَا رَبِّ فَهَلْ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ شَيْءٌ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الرِّيحِ قَالَ نَعَمِ ابْنُ آدَمَ تَصَدَّقَ بِصَدَقَةٍ بِيَمِينِهِ يُخْفِيهَا مِنْ شِمَالِهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ غَرِيبٌ لاَ نَعْرِفُهُ مَرْفُوعًا إِلاَّ مِنْ هَذَا الْوَجْهِ ‏.‏
Grade : Hasan (Darussalam)
English reference : Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3369
Arabic reference : Book 47, Hadith 3695

2) What does it mean that the mountains are as pegs?

78:6,7
Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
And the mountains as pegs?
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=78


Thanks so much!
There is nothing in Arabic text can be translated to the 3 words "said to them:".
Arabic
Prophet said "فَخَلَقَ الْجِبَالَ فَعَادَ بِهَا عَلَيْهَا فَاسْتَقَرَّتْ" . I can't find a literal translation for it. It may be "Then Allah created the mountains and ...." I can't say On or In.

Regarding 78:6,7
It's better to be "earth a resting place" "earth an easy place to walk in"
What I can say about "أوتادا" It's something fixed in the land to tie an animal ro a tent to it.
 
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TG123

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There is no translation for Quran. We can have translation for the meaning.

I'm not so experienced in English. I'll try to help

The meaning of the verse is: The surface of the land was unstable, moving like a ship تميد then Allah created "Settlers". Most properly these settlers are explained as the big mountains that stabilized the surface of the earth so that it's stable.

Salaam alaikum and thank you my friend for responding.

Are you sure that is what is said word for word?

Below is what the transliteration says.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=15#(16:15:1)


Were the “settlers” created on the land? In the land? For the land? Something else? What is the translation saying?


I'm not sure if the word "cast" is an accurate or suitable translation of the meaning of ألقى.

It can be something like distribute/scatter/discrete

Regards

Thanks brother.
 
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TG123

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There is nothing in Arabic test can be translated to the 3 words "said to them:".

Arabic Prophet said "فَخَلَقَالْجِبَالَفَعَادَبِهَاعَلَيْهَافَاسْتَقَرَّتْ" . I can't find a literal translation for it. It may be "Then Allah created the mountains and ...." I can't say On or In.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Can you find out whether the word is “on” or “in”? Does the Arabic say that God created the earth and it was shaking and then God put mountains in or on it? Do you know which it is?

According to what the Arabic says, He did not say anything to the mountains? Is this a bad translation?


Regarding 78:6,7

It's better to be "earth a resting place" "earth an easy place to walk in"

What I can say about "أوتادا" It's something fixed in the land to tie an animal ro a tent to it.

Thank you. The Quran is then saying the mountains are fixed? What does that mean?

According to 79:32, the Quran states God made the mountains “firm”. What does the word “arsaha” mean?

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rsw#(79:32:2)


Thanks for the peg analogy. A peg is fixed in the surface of the earth to tie an animal or tent to. Three separate things are involved- the surface the peg is put in, the peg itself, and the object that is tied to it. Would you agree that is how a peg works?
 
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Limo

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Thanks for taking the time to explain. Can you find out whether the word is “on” or “in”? Does the Arabic say that God created the earth and it was shaking and then God put mountains in or on it? Do you know which it is?
Allah didn't say "It was shaking " Allah said "Not to shake"
In this verse 16:15 Allah used the word "in"

According to what the Arabic says, He did not say anything to the mountains? Is this a bad translation?
In letterer Arabic translation the word "Mountain" is not in the verse.
It's an explanation not a lateral translation
Quran explanatory are saying رواسي are big huge mountains

Thank you. The Quran is then saying the mountains are fixed? What does that mean?

According to 79:32, the Quran states God made the mountains “firm”. What does the word “arsaha” mean?

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rsw#(79:32:2)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rsw#(79:32:2)
Allah didn't say that mountains are fixed, Allah said the Rawasi رواسي are fixing/holding/stablizing the earth

Thanks for the peg analogy. A peg is fixed in the surface of the earth to tie an animal or tent to. Three separate things are involved- the surface the peg is put in, the peg itself, and the object that is tied to it. Would you agree that is how a peg works?
I agree except for "object is tied to". There is another type of pig/bold/pin that holds the surface to the core of the thing under the surface.
 
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Limo

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Salaam alaikum and thank you my friend for responding.

Are you sure that is what is said word for word?

Below is what the transliteration says.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=15#(16:15:1)


Were the “settlers” created on the land? In the land? For the land? Something else? What is the translation saying?




Thanks brother.
Walikom Alsalam,
I responded to later comment before this one.
As explained, It's stabilizers/fixer/holder,,,
The word mountain was not said but explanators based on Arabic language, it's about mountains.
 
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TG123

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Salaam alaikum my brother Limo. Thanks so much for your time and
Allah didn't say "It was shaking " Allah said "Not to shake"
In this verse 16:15 Allah used the word "in"

So the mountains were scattered in the earth? Distributed? Secreted?
What does that mean?

If you scatter or distribute seeds in the earth, you drop or plant them in it. Is this how the Quran describes mountains?

I managed to find this word in Lane’s Arabic Lexicon, it allegedly means “to drop” or “to put” (p 3012). Is this what the Quran is saying, that God put or dropped mountains into the earth?
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/


In letterer Arabic translation the word "Mountain" is not in the verse.
It's an explanation not a lateral translation
Quran explanatory are saying رواسي are big huge mountains

So then is this or is this verse not about mountains?


Allah didn't say that mountains are fixed, Allah said the Rawasi رواسي are fixing/holding/stablizing the earth

OK. So the mountains are in the earth and they are stabilizing it? This is a reference to the crust I am assuming. Correct?


I agree except for "object is tied to". There is another type of pig/bold/pin that holds the surface to the core of the thing under the surface.

Can you give an example please?


Walikom Alsalam,
I responded to later comment before this one.
As explained, It's stabilizers/fixer/holder,,,
The word mountain was not said but explanators based on Arabic language, it's about mountains.

Shukran for explaining brother J
 
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Limo

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Salaam alaikum my brother Limo. Thanks so much for your time and
Walikom Alsalam

So the mountains were scattered in the earth? Distributed? Secreted?
What does that mean?

If you scatter or distribute seeds in the earth, you drop or plant them in it. Is this how the Quran describes mountains?

I managed to find this word in Lane’s Arabic Lexicon, it allegedly means “to drop” or “to put” (p 3012). Is this what the Quran is saying, that God put or dropped mountains into the earth?
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/
The word in Arabic language can have many meanings and the context is the key of the explanation.
In this cases,I can't say "to drop" or "to put" as it looks like that mountains are from outside earth, I can't agree or disagree. Who knows ?
I see Drop/scatter is more convenient



So then is this or is this verse not about mountains?
The mountain is not explicitly said in the verse and the only explanation we've till date is the Rawasi means mountain as there is another verse that relates mountains to Rawasy 79:32
Dr. Ghali
And the mountains He made steady, (i.e., made them anchorages).

Here is another translation for Rawasy = anchorages


OK. So the mountains are in the earth and they are stabilizing it? This is a reference to the crust I am assuming. Correct?
To be accurate "in" and "on" as there is a hidden part in the earth. It's reference to stabilizing/fixing/anchoring the crust of the earth.
Can you give an example please?
It's like you're fixing a paper on a wall using a pin. So, you're not intending to tie something to it, you're just fixing/anchoring the paper to the wall



Shukran for explaining brother J
You're welcome (Afwan)
 
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TG123

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Walikom Alsalam
Peace be upon you also brother.

The word in Arabic language can have many meanings and the context is the key of the explanation.
In this cases,I can't say "to drop" or "to put" as it looks like that mountains are from outside earth, I can't agree or disagree. Who knows ?
I see Drop/scatter is more convenient
OK sorry for being slow, but I still don't see what you mean.
Can you please write a sentence that uses the word "drop" and another sentence that uses the word "scatter" that would be used in the same way as "alqaa" is used in the verse?
Sorry if I am being annoying but I am trying to understand what you are saying.

I notice that some Quran translations use the word "affixed" for "alqaa". I could find no such meaning however in Lane's Arabic Lexicon, p 3012. Would "affixed" be have the same meaning as "alqaa"?

The mountain is not explicitly said in the verse and the only explanation we've till date is the Rawasi means mountain as there is another verse that relates mountains to Rawasy 79:32
Dr. Ghali
And the mountains He made steady, (i.e., made them anchorages).

Here is another translation for Rawasy = anchorages
Thanks, Limo.

It's like you're fixing a paper on a wall using a pin. So, you're not intending to tie something to it, you're just fixing/anchoring the paper to the wall
OK, so when you fix a paper to a wall using a pin, the pin in effect punctures two things. The paper (completely) and the wall (partially, just enough to pierce it, so the pin with the paper can be attached to it).

Is this how the Quran describes mountains?


You're welcome (Afwan)
:)
 
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Limo

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Peace be upon you also brother.


OK sorry for being slow, but I still don't see what you mean.
Can you please write a sentence that uses the word "drop" and another sentence that uses the word "scatter" that would be used in the same way as "alqaa" is used in the verse?
Sorry if I am being annoying but I am trying to understand what you are saying.

I notice that some Quran translations use the word "affixed" for "alqaa". I could find no such meaning however in Lane's Arabic Lexicon, p 3012. Would "affixed" be have the same meaning as "alqaa"?
The only way to understand Quran, you need to feel it, is using Arabic language.
The Arabic language is very reach and I believe it's the mother of all languages all over history.
The word Alqa ألقى has about 16 meanings. for Example, The professor Alqa a lecture to the student.
ِAlqa, can mean "Drop". Drop something from outside the earth
Alqa, can mean "push out". in case of lava is pushed out from a volcano
Alqa, can mean "planted", "Scattered". Alqa the seeds in or on the land.

another meaning of Alqa which is applied for the earth: Allah said in Quran 84:3-4 "
And when the earth has been extended,
And has cast out that within it and relinquished [it]
ِألقت Alqa(t) t is for female means"Cast out"


So, for the Rawasy, Allah said "و ألقى فيها رواسى" Alqa In/on Rawasy
It can be from outside or from inside the earth. we don't know
Thanks, Limo.


OK, so when you fix a paper to a wall using a pin, the pin in effect punctures two things. The paper (completely) and the wall (partially, just enough to pierce it, so the pin with the paper can be attached to it).

Is this how the Quran describes mountains?

:)
Yes, this what is meant.
 
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TG123

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Salaam alaikum brother, and thank you for your response.

The only way to understand Quran, you need to feel it, is using Arabic language.
The Arabic language is very reach and I believe it's the mother of all languages all over history.
I definitely agree it is very rich, am not sure if it's "the mother of all languages".

The word Alqa ألقى has about 16 meanings.
Great, let's look at the the ones you provided.

for Example, The professor Alqa a lecture to the student.
Does Alqaa in this sentence mean "gave"?
ِAlqa, can mean "Drop". Drop something from outside the earth
Alqa, can mean "push out". in case of lava is pushed out from a volcano
Alqa, can mean "planted", "Scattered". Alqa the seeds in or on the land.
Thanks for sharing these two. We know that mountains are formed when tectonic plates collide with one another, and the earth's crust is pushed up.
http://www.ikonet.com/en/visualdictionary/static/us/mountains

According to 16:15, God "alqaa" the mountains into, or onto, the earth.

Mountains were formed from the earth, not dropped into it or pushed out of it to be on top (like lava is for example). They aren't a separate addition to the earth from above or from below, but are a part of it that was pushed up.

another meaning of Alqa which is applied for the earth: Allah said in Quran 84:3-4 "
And when the earth has been extended,

And has cast out that within it and relinquished [it]
ِألقت Alqa(t) t is for female means"Cast out"

So, for the Rawasy, Allah said "و ألقى فيها رواسى" Alqa In/on Rawasy
It can be from outside or from inside the earth. we don't know
Thanks for sharing brother. If I am not mistaken the word here is Alqat and not Alqa, which is used in 16:15 as well as other verses like 15:19 and 50:7. Does the difference in spelling mean anything?

Yes, this what is meant.
Thanks for clarifying. If this is the case, what two things are punctured by the mountains?
 
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Limo

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Salaam alaikum brother, and thank you for your response.
Walkom Alsalam

I definitely agree it is very rich, am not sure if it's "the mother of all languages".
There is no materialized evedances but some thoughts

Great, let's look at the the ones you provided.


Does Alqaa in this sentence mean "gave"?

Thanks for sharing these two. We know that mountains are formed when tectonic plates collide with one another, and the earth's crust is pushed up.
http://www.ikonet.com/en/visualdictionary/static/us/mountains

According to 16:15, God "alqaa" the mountains into, or onto, the earth.

Mountains were formed from the earth, not dropped into it or pushed out of it to be on top (like lava is for example). They aren't a separate addition to the earth from above or from below, but are a part of it that was pushed up.
Quran scholars are saying رواسي are the big mountain and Alqat means pushed out from earth.

Thanks for sharing brother. If I am not mistaken the word here is Alqat and not Alqa, which is used in 16:15 as well as other verses like 15:19 and 50:7. Does the difference in spelling mean anything?
The ت T at the end of the verb in Arabic is used with female. Earth is a female word in Arabic So, Allah said "Alqat" ألقت

Thanks for clarifying. If this is the case, what two things are punctured by the mountains?
Mountains fixes the crust with the inner of the earth.
I found someone explains the all the verses related to mountain in light of modern geology
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_25.html
 
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TG123

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Salaam alaikum brother, nice to be back again.

Walkom Alsalam
Same to you.
There is no materialized evedances but some thoughts
Mish mushkil :)

Quran scholars are saying رواسي are the big mountain and Alqat means pushed out from earth.
If this is the case then that verse is in error since mountains are not pushed out from the earth. They are not under the crust or in the crust, they are part of the crust itself. When the tectonic plates come together, some parts of the crust are pushed upwards, these form mountains.

In other words, the mountains are made from the earth's material. They are not pushed out of the earth or brought out of the earth or placed down on the earth or pushed out from the earth.

The ت T at the end of the verb in Arabic is used with female. Earth is a female word in Arabic So, Allah said "Alqat" ألقت
That is really interesting, Limo. I didn't know that, thank you for sharing!

Mountains fixes the crust with the inner of the earth.
I found someone explains the all the verses related to mountain in light of modern geology
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_25.html
Thanks for the site. Notice that it states that God placed mountains "on the earth" in its translation of 21:31
Also, what the authors do not point out is how, given that mountains are part of the earth's crust, it is possible for them to act like pegs. Remember, a peg pierces one surface completely to attach it to another surface, like the example they gave of a nail holding strips of wood together. The nail pierces one piece and nails it to another.
A mountain does not "pierce" the crust, it is part of it. Yes, it, embeds itself in the mantle, and keeps the rest of the crust more steady that way. The Quran correctly points out that mountains stabilize the crust.

But the verse I think is mistaken about their formation, and given that the function of a peg is to be embedded in two surfaces in order to keep them together, I don't see how a mountain fits that description since it is embedded only in one.

Nice as always talking to you brother. God bless you and take care. :)
 
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