I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law...(a question)

expos4ever · Aug 25, 2016

Soyeong said:
When God judges the wicked, do you think that He will use the standard of His righteousness regardless of whether or not they happen to be Jews?

First, if you are implying that the Law of Moses is God's eternal standard of righteousness, and that it applies to all humanity, I think that is a position that cannot be defended Biblically. First, the Law of Moses - the written code - was for Jews and Jews only. Second, that same Law of Moses was initiated at Sinai (and not in force before, of course) set aside at the Cross (and therefore not in force for the last 2000 years).

Paul declares this quite clearly (as does the author of Ephesians, if that is not Paul).

And both Jesus's actions and His words indicate that He too sees the time of the Law of Moses as coming to an end through His life and work.

Now back to your question. From Romans 2:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Who is "without the Law"? The Gentile of course. So, naturally enough, since no Gentile (except for the very small number who were integrated into Jewish society while the Law of Moses was in force) was ever under the jurisdiction of the Law in the first, no Gentile will be judged by it.

Just as Paul says.

Who is "under the Law"? Obviously any Jew who lived between Sinai (when the Law was given) and the Cross (when the Law was set aside). So these Jews will indeed be judged by the Law.

Just as Paul says.

giftofGod2 · Aug 25, 2016

Soyeong, I'm just curious as to what you make of Galatians 3:12 in your thinking.

And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.

amadeois · Aug 25, 2016

There is another thread that is very similar to this one.

Is the law still in force?

But do we understand what is meant for law?

What is meant we are not under the law? Are we above the law?

Or the law does not apply?

The "Rules of the Road" says that the maximum speed is 65 mph.

If you drive over 65 mph. then you are not obeying the law. We might say you are sinning.

But what about if you never drive over 65 mph? You are not sinning. You are under the speed limit and you are not under the law because it does not apply to you.

Now, what did Jesus do for you at the cross?

Is kind of like he gave us a gift to save us from the sin of Adam.

Is like He goes to pay your fine by breaking the law, going over 65 mph.

Is a gift. You don't have to do nothing. Wait a minute, when somebody gives you a gift you have to accept it and you thank the giver.

If you do not know Jesus, then you do not know that He already paid that ticket so then you go to the court and pay that ticket a second time.

Now, the law is comprised of several things:

Basic law, like the one about defining the maximum speed.

But that's it. What do yo do with that knowledge if it is not enforced.

The we create more rules saying that if you go over 65 then you'll be punished and have to pay a fine.

To enforce that, rules if the road are created, the police is created, courts are crested, judges are crested, a list of fines are created, traffic schools are created and so on.

So the law is very complex. But Jesus changed part of that old covenant.

Here is where you can show that you really know Jesus.

What did Jesus change and how?

I hope somebody hits the nail at the first try.

Jesus was an excellent carpenter and He knows a lot about NAILS better than us.

toLiJC · Aug 25, 2016

giftofGod2 said:
What is the law of God that the carnal mind is not subject to? Was Jesus being carnally minded in not being subject to the sabbath law of the ten commandments? (see 2 Corinthians 5:21 for the answer) And are we carnally minded if we do not subject ourselves to dietary laws concerning clean and unclean animals? Remember that it says in 1 Timothy 4:4 that every creature is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

there is a holy law of the true God, which is entirely good, while the "carnal mind" is the one that by its very nature is occult, esoteric, idolatrous and heretical in general - it is the mind of the spiritual servants/workers that commit spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness mainly in the form of ostensibly sacred religion, because when it comes to practicing faith, there is nothing between the righteousness and the unrighteousness

Jesus Christ was subject to the fourth commandment of the ten, which are not at all carnal commandments, but the perfectly holy ones - the doctrine of the new testament is based on the same principles, it is another question whether all worshipers have understood the true meaning of the fourth commandment as well as of others, for example the unrighteous scribes and pharisees at the time of Jesus' first coming usually believed that they should not work anything on saturday, but the true meaning of the fourth commandment is that the spiritual servants at least must not defile the creation of God, (and) especially the human being which is the most important creature of God, because God made all the universal creation in six days and fell into a centuries-long state of half-sleep as from the seventh day, which is why the spiritual servants should be careful to keep the creation of God holy, because if the father is not fully awake to take full care of all his children, then his big sons should take good care of the rest - remember how the Son of God, Jesus, took good care of all people that needed salvation by casting the devilish spirits out of the possessed ones, healing the sick, resurrecting dead, etc.

the dietary law was necessary mostly in the time before the New Testament, because the sacrifice(s) of the old covenant(s) had not been able to protect the people from the detrimental effect of the consumption of unhealthy food, of course every creation of God was also then good, but satan had a great power in "heaven" before the enactment of the New Testament, with which he was able to make people more vulnerable to diseases and poisoning

giftofGod2 said:
The question is, what is the law of God that we are subject to in our minds if we are spiritually minded? On the one hand, I don't want to change the meaning of the law of God in that verse, but on the other hand, I don't believe that the whole of scripture bears out that when it says the law of God here, it can possibly be referring to the law of Moses.

it is about the holy law of God in Romans 8:7, which is entirely good, the "carnal mind" is that (side of the) human mind which is possessed by the spirit of antichrist, namely the wicked "god", also known as satan, because there is a heaven of the true God, but there is also an underheaven, (from) where the wicked one manifests - his kingdom is the world of occultism and idolatry, because the original and the very sin is the spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness, while the other sins are secondary, for that reason the unrighteous scribes and pharisees were the people that did not accept the Word of Jesus and opposed Him the most, because they were spiritual servants of unrighteousness

giftofGod2 said:
Is it possibe that the law of God, spoken of in Romans 8:7, could be referring to our subjection to the Lordship of the one to whom we have been married to instead of the law? Remember that in Galatians Paul relates to us that being under the law is slavery, and yet in James we are told that there is a law of liberty; perhaps this law of liberty is set forth in the fact that we as bona fide believers are willing servants of our Lord Jesus Christ (Psalm 110:3), no longer being in bondage to the law (Galatians 4:21-31 -- Galatians 5:1-4).

the biblical word "law" has different meanings depending on the verse/passage or the context, such biblical expressions as "bondage to the law" refer to the system of human(666) religion, because if the faith is practiced not entirely according to the Holy Law of God, then it is not true faith, but sin(spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness), from this point of view, the human factor is the "number" of the wicked "god"(the "beast"), because the wicked one can't enter into and act in the world without his spiritual servants among the human beings (Romans 5:12-14) - remember how eve and adam listened to and followed the wicked one, for this reason the first commandment of the true Lord God is "you should not have other gods/christs/spirits besides Me", while the second: "you should not create spiritual theories("graven images") and spiritual practices("likenesses") in conjunction with any thing that is in the heaven or in the earth or in the water under the earth; you should not venerate such things, nor serve them (i.e. even if not you but someone else created/professes them)", i.e. the worshipers should not have beliefs and spiritual/religious traditions that are not entirely of the true Lord God...

Blessings

amadeois · Aug 25, 2016

Let me ask something.

How does the "Day of Atonement" has to do anything with Jesus?

Also it has to do a lot with is being discussed here.

So I just want to know what is the level of knowledge about the Word of God.

disciple1 · Aug 25, 2016

giftofGod2 said:
Ephesians 2:15, Havng abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:13-14, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Romans 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Galatians 2:19, For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Romans 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

--------------

Seeing these scriptures, it is clear that there is no more any application of the law to our lives. Is this true?

1 John 3:4 tells us that sin is the transgression of the law, and in Romans 6:15 we are exhorted, What then? shall we sin (i.e. transgress the law), because we are not under the law but under grace?

And also Romans 8:7 says, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This would indicate to me, that the spiritual mind is at peace with God because it is subject to the law of God, and cannot be otherwise.

So I would venture to say that what all this means is that Christ has forgiven us of past, present, and future sins by abolishing the law's ability to condemn us: sin is not imputed to us because we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law; even as it is written, Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15, and For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13,

And, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So we are forgiven and the law no longer has dominion over us (Romans 7:1) as we have been made dead indeed unto sin (Romans 6:7, Romans 6:11, Romans 8:10).

And yet, if we are spiritually minded, then our minds are subject to the law of God.

Which brings up a question. First, a couple of scriptures, in two sections:

I.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:21-22

II.
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile a man...Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth into the draught, purging all meats? Mark 7:15,19.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience searewd with a hot iron: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 1 Timothy 4:1-6.

So, in section I, we find Jesus breaking the sabbath according to the inspired opinion of the gospel writer, and also it is true that Jesus never committed any sins: therefore Jesus did not sin in breaking the sabbath, and it is also not a sin for us if we do the same.

And in section II, Jesus effectively declares all foods clean, abolishing the dietary laws of the Old Testament concerning clean and unclean animals.

So then, the question that I have is concernig Romans 8:7 (I will quote it again here): Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

What is the law of God that the carnal mind is not subject to? Was Jesus being carnally minded in not being subject to the sabbath law of the ten commandments? (see 2 Corinthians 5:21 for the answer) And are we carnally minded if we do not subject ourselves to dietary laws concerning clean and unclean animals? Remember that it says in 1 Timothy 4:4 that every creature is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

The answer is simple but hard to find, if you are not a careful student of scripture. In Hebrews 7:12,18-19 we find the following words:

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law:...For there is verily a disanulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigth unto God.

So, again looking at Romans 8:7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The question is, what is the law of God that we are subject to in our minds if we are spiritually minded? On the one hand, I don't want to change the meaning of the law of God in that verse, but on the other hand, I don't believe that the whole of scripture bears out that when it says the law of God here, it can possibly be referring to the law of Moses.

So, going back to the context of some of the other verse we have mentioned:

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Is it possibe that the law of God, spoken of in Romans 8:7, could be referring to our subjection to the Lordship of the one to whom we have been married to instead of the law? Remember that in Galatians Paul relates to us that being under the law is slavery, and yet in James we are told that there is a law of liberty; perhaps this law of liberty is set forth in the fact that we as bona fide believers are willing servants of our Lord Jesus Christ (Psalm 110:3), no longer being in bondage to the law (Galatians 4:21-31 -- Galatians 5:1-4).

In Romans 8:2 it is written, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

And in Romans 3:27 we find the words, Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Righteousness in the New Testament is not according to the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4):

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13.

...and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3:9.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Romans 4:3.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. Romans 4:9.

A few last things, and then we will finish:

The fact that we are no longer under the Old Testament law means that we are in a heap of trouble, because now we no longer have an understanding of sin, unless something in the New Testament can define it for us. I think that Paul does this perfectly in Romans 8:3:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak though the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fufilled in us, who walk not after the fesh, but after the Spirit.

In the righteousness of faith, sin is defined as walking according to the flesh. If we walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, the righteousness of the New Testament requirement will be fulfilled in us; as I most certainly believe that in Romans 8:4, when Paul refers to the righteousness of the law, he is also here referring to the New Testament requirement of being under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, because For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. The New Testament law being the requirement to walk by faith and also to be subject to the moral teachings of the New Testament in our spiritual minds, while none of these laws have dominion over us in that we, being in Christ, are no longer condemned and cannot be condemned, the condition for this freedom is that we be born again and thus be spiritually minded. And those who are spiritually minded are subject to the Lordship of Jesus Christ within their minds. Until we come to that place of relationship with Jesus Christ, wherein we hear from Him on a personal level, we must be subject to the law of God: since this law has been changed (Hebrews 7:12), let us search the New Testament to find what it has been changed to; for if you do so, you will see that the moral requirement is greater than in that of the Old Testament, the righteousness required is a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20); and yet, because we are given the power of the Holy Spirit to complete the new requirement we find that his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Matthew 11:30.

We don't have to obey any law except to love our neighbor as ourselves.

giftofGod2 said:
it is clear that there is no more any application of the law to our lives. Is this true?

And this is how it's done.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14
The entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as yourself.
John chapter 15
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Travis93 · Aug 25, 2016

expos4ever said:
I agree, although I thought one could have inferred same from my earlier posts.

I am of the view that the Law of Moses applies to no one, as of the Cross.

There is no question at all that Jews must keep the law today. Anyone who leads away from observing the law is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Isaiah 8:20). The law is everlasting (Genesis 17:10-14, Exodus 31:16-17, 1 Chronicles 16:17, Psalms 105:10, Psalms 119:152, Psalms 119:160, Luke 16:17). How much of it applies to gentiles is debatable, but followers of Jesus are called to imitate him (1 John 2:6) so it makes sense for them to follow it too if they want to walk as Jesus walked.

amadeois · Aug 26, 2016

I believe nobody is getting some of the points I made.

Totally swoosh over their heads..

In order to get to know Jesus, you need to open your eyes to His written word..

I mentioned the eye-salve but nobody has any idea.

Sample I presented, another swoosh.

Jesus 72 hours, another swoosh.

I do not want to say that I know much, only a few things I have studied. But the problem is that those we are trying to teach, do not want to pat attention to a few of us.

So if that is the way they want it, so be it, stay in the darkness.

May God open up your eyes and give you wisdom to understand His word.

Peace be with you brothers.

amadeois · Aug 26, 2016

Jesus is not ending the Law of His Father, He is completing it.

He is the last part of the Law.

So if He is the last part, then it means it has not ended.

The secret is knowing what did Jesus do to the Law?

Did He changed it?
Did He voided it?
Did He add things to it?
Did He subtract things from it?

He did it with His:

1. Coming to earth. Do you know what date?

2. Dying on the cross. Was it in the middle of the week or on Friday?

3. Resurrecting from death.
Was it on shabbat or on the 1st day of the week?

4. Ascending to His Father to seat at His Right Hand. About 40 days after His resurrection.

Why did He come to Earth to be killed by His Father's chosen nation that did not believe He was the Messiah?

He came to undo what Adam did.

To reconcile us back to His father.

To complete His work of REDEMPTION.

Redemption from what?

Similar to taking the jews out of Egypt.

Travis93 · Aug 26, 2016

amadeois said:
Jesus is not ending the Law of His Father, He is completing it.

He is the last part of the Law.

So if He is the last part, then it means it has not ended.

The secret is knowing what did Jesus do to the Law?

Did He changed it?
Did He voided it?
Did He add things to it?
Did He subtract things from it?

He did it with His:

1. Coming to earth. Do you know what date?

2. Dying on the cross. Was it in the middle of the week or on Friday?

3. Resurrecting from death.
Was it on shabbat or on the 1st day of the week?

4. Ascending to His Father to seat at His Right Hand. About 40 days after His resurrection.

Why did He come to Earth to be killed by His Father's chosen nation that did not believe He was the Messiah?

He came to undo what Adam did.

To reconcile us back to His father.

To complete His work of REDEMPTION.

Redemption from what?

Similar to taking the jews out of Egypt.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

expos4ever · Aug 26, 2016

Travis93 said:
There is no question at all that Jews must keep the law today. Anyone who leads away from observing the law is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Isaiah 8:20).

Paul clearly teaches that the Law of Moses is retired through the in-breaking of Jesus into history:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [ai]tutor.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Travis93 said:
The law is everlasting (Genesis 17:10-14, Exodus 31:16-17, 1 Chronicles 16:17, Psalms 105:10, Psalms 119:152, Psalms 119:160, Luke 16:17).

If one looks up the Hebrew word that is translated as "everlasting", one will see it really means "age-enduring". It is a translator's decision to render that word as "everlasting". I will deal with Luke 16 in a forthcoming post.

disciple1 · Aug 26, 2016

Travis93 said:
There is no question at all that Jews must keep the law today. Anyone who leads away from observing the law is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Isaiah 8:20). The law is everlasting (Genesis 17:10-14, Exodus 31:16-17, 1 Chronicles 16:17, Psalms 105:10, Psalms 119:152, Psalms 119:160, Luke 16:17). How much of it applies to gentiles is debatable, but followers of Jesus are called to imitate him (1 John 2:6) so it makes sense for them to follow it too if they want to walk as Jesus walked.

No law makes anyone perfect, only love.
Hebrews chapter 7

11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

expos4ever · Aug 26, 2016

Travis93 said:
There is no question at all that Jews must keep the law today. Anyone who leads away from observing the law is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Isaiah 8:20). The law is everlasting (Genesis 17:10-14, Exodus 31:16-17, 1 Chronicles 16:17, Psalms 105:10, Psalms 119:152, Psalms 119:160, Luke 16:17). How much of it applies to gentiles is debatable, but followers of Jesus are called to imitate him (1 John 2:6) so it makes sense for them to follow it too if they want to walk as Jesus walked.

Now about Luke 16:17:

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail

This certainly reads as through the Law is eternal. But appearances can be deceiving. Here is NT Wright on how "end of the world" language, such as what we see in this text from Luke, is used in the Old Testament (I add the emphasis):

In common with many other scholars, I use the word “apocalyptic” itself to refer first and foremost to a way of writing, what you might call a literary convention. Some writers chose consciously to evoke the cosmic or theological meaning of events in the space-time world by means of a sometimes complex system of metaphors. “The stars will not give their light”, wrote Isaiah, “the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light” (Isaiah 13.10). What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. In the prophet’s world, that was like saying that London or New York would sink into the sea, never to rise. What language will you borrow to do justice to such an event? That of cosmic collapse, of chaos come again. The whole point is, of course, that the world has not actually collapsed; if it had, there wouldn’t be anybody around to be shocked and awed at the fate of Babylon.

The upshot of this is that when Jesus effectively says the Law will remain till heaven and earth pass away, He is speaking in that well-established Biblical tradition of using the language of cosmic collapse to signify important events in this present world.

Given the tradition, it is plausible that when Jesus says that the Law will persist as long as heaven and earth are here, He is really saying the Law will persist until some dramatic, fundamental, and hugely significant change occurs in the present state of the world.

And, of course, the cross and the resurrection fit that bill perfectly.

expos4ever · Aug 26, 2016

amadeois said:
There is another thread that is very similar to this one.

Is the law still in force?

But do we understand what is meant for law?

What is meant we are not under the law? Are we above the law?

Or the law does not apply?

I believe my take on these questions has been provided in this thread. While Paul uses the word "law" to refer to different things, he most often uses it to denote the Law of Moses which he sees as "retired" / set aside as of the Cross and the Resurrection.

amadeois said:
The "Rules of the Road" says that the maximum speed is 65 mph.

If you drive over 65 mph. then you are not obeying the law. We might say you are sinning.

But what about if you never drive over 65 mph? You are not sinning. You are under the speed limit and you are not under the law because it does not apply to you.

I politely suggest the reasoning here is incorrect. The 65 mph law applies to everyone - those who obey it as well as those who do not.

I found the rest of your post extremely hard to follow. Can you please clarify?

SAAN · Aug 26, 2016

bugkiller said:
Nicely done. A bit long and many sadly won't read it all.

bugkiller

Figures one of the main promoters of lawlessness on here would read the whole thing and love it. You can pick and choose random bible verses and get it to mean anything you want, but in context it can be broken down.

expos4ever · Aug 26, 2016

amadeois said:
Jesus is not ending the Law of His Father, He is completing it.

He is the last part of the Law.

So if He is the last part, then it means it has not ended.

I do not think this reasoning works. Yes, Jesus is in a very real sense "completes" the Law. But this does not mean the Law has not ended. If - and I think this assumption can be defended Biblically - the Law of Moses was given by God as a means to achieve a certain goal in God's broad plan of redemption, we can coherently claim that when that goal is achieved ("fulfilled" if you will), the Law is no longer needed and can be set aside.

In short, I see no Biblical basis for believing the Law is in force, and I do not see how your argument above is not simply begging the very question at issue - assuming the very thing you appear to want to demonstrate (namely that the Law of Moses remains in force).

SAAN · Aug 26, 2016

IF we have no law and it can be set aside, the is no need for judgement day then, because why would God judge me on committing murder, idolatry, stealing, adultery or sexual immorality and more, if there is now no law against it.

You can only judge what you are guilty of. No one goes to court because they are innocent.

The bible said we will be judged by our works and it will determine our rewards, so there has to be some kind of laws that believers live their life by.

expos4ever · Aug 26, 2016

SAAN said:
IF we have no law and it can be set aside, the is no need for judgement day then, because why would God judge me on committing murder, idolatry, stealing, adultery or sexual immorality and more, if there is now no law against it.

You can only judge what you are guilty of. No one goes to court because they are innocent.

The bible said we will be judged by our works and it will determine our rewards, so there has to be some kind of laws that believers live their life by.

I think we are talking about different things. When I point out that the New Testament teaches that the Law of Moses has been set aside, I am not suggesting this gives us free license to sin. The Law of Moses is a specific written code given to one people and one people only - the Jews. It never applied to any Gentile (with the very limited exception of those Gentiles who lived among the Jews, and there were not many of them).

This is a complicated problem but let me try to save us a lot of grief. Do we agree that kicking puppies is "sin"? I think it is and I expect you do as well. Is there a law against kicking puppies? Well, there probably is indeed such a law but the relevant point is that even if there were no law, it would still be sin.

So we do not really need "law" to tell us what sin is. And in the Christian worldview, we have the indwelling Spirit to guide us. In fact, Paul argues that, for the Jew at least, the Spirit replaces the law as the means by which we are guided away from sin.

Travis93 · Aug 26, 2016

SAAN said:
Figures one of the main promoters of lawlessness on here would read the whole thing and love it. You can pick and choose random bible verses and get it to mean anything you want, but in context it can be broken down.

"He cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5), "Go, and do thou likewise" (Luke 10:37), "That thou doest, do quickly" (John 13:27).

Travis93 · Aug 26, 2016

expos4ever said:
Paul clearly teaches that the Law of Moses is retired through the in-breaking of Jesus into history:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [ai]tutor.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Then Paul must be rejected, the law forbids anyone from coming along and leading away from it.
Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deuteronomy 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law...(a question)

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