Jesus was pro-abortion....

Evening Mist · Mar 8, 2003

unfortunately, the woman and the woman alone is the one who "pays the consequences" most of the time. Life is not fair, is it?

and if you think a woman who has had an abortion gets off "easy" with no ramifications, then I suggest that you have never closely known a real live women who has lost a child through abortion.

Childlessness is a tragedy and a woman who bears and gives up a child for adoption has done a very good thing. I'm not arguing that. I would never insist or demand on it either though.

supermagdalena · Mar 8, 2003

Post #58. Read it this time, will you?

You seem to be ignoring my point that the woman has in most cases made a very stupid and careless choice. Actually, nothing that happens to us is really "unfair". We should all be going to Hell. But we don't have to. That's far more than fair. It doesn't excuse killing a child because the woman has to audacity to whine, "But it's painful", or "But I have things to do". And men aren't always the enemy you know...often they get off just as badly as the women. Again, reeeeead the post. Please. Don't just skim and attack.

I think that as women we often have a terrible double standard. One example woudl be the Andrea Yates thing...a man woudl have been immediately condemned to death, "Kill the sucker!". But a woman? "Oh that poor thing.." We need to keep the same standards regardless of sex. Being women gives us equal rights, not more rights.

Michael0701 · Mar 8, 2003

Today at 10:30 AM Evening Mist said this in Post #59

There seems to be a huge over-simplification here of what is involved in carrying a child to term, and going through labor and delivery. I have been extrordinarily fortunate in my life circumstances, and still found the experience to be overwhelming and bordering on traumatic. Whatever your views on abortion, please keep in mind that it trivializes pregnancy to refer to it as an "inconvenience." Especially in a world that puts such a high value on physical "perfection." No mother I know has ever seen it in such simplistic terms. It is a sacrifice of a magnititude that the average person does not ordinary make otherwise, and it should be regarded as such.

 

 

vanity..... the saddest excuse of them all for having an abortion

 

 

Before becoming a Christian I held my tongue about abortion.  I felt that since I was a man I had no right to comment.  I guess the Holy Spirit has done it's work on my heart as far as abortion goes, so here's my 2cents.

 

IF abortion was just about rape, birth defects, and the safety of the mother, I feel that (keep in mind this may be my first ever opinion on the subject) the uproar about it would be minimal.  But we all know it's much, much bigger than that.  To a great many women it is a form of contraception (which is quite a paradox).  While I can't say that today I feel it should be outlawed, at the very least the methods used to counsel women need improvemet.  I don't think that it is possible to turn back the damage pop culture has done to our young women and MEN and how they view promiscuity.  Maybe a return to publicly funded orphanages would help.  Maybe the "rabid" face of pro-lifers needs to soften up a bit (instead of scaring show a little caring).  Lets face it, the posters of mutilated fetuses just doesn't work.  It's a natural reflex to avert the eyes.  Love can conquer all.  The child/woman should be shown love and not disdain, the heart needs to be soft for a change to occur.  Fear only causes pain, and the pain will drive them to a "quick-fix".

But what do I know, I'm only a man.  I have never been in that kind of situation.

supermagdalena · Mar 8, 2003

I agree that too many pro-lifers see it as "sin", not people. I have nothing but pity and hurt for the women who are decieved into having abortions. I know they hurt, and I can only imagine how much. If we just found these women sooner while they were pregnant, and showed them God's love and that we didn't condemn them, maybe they would make better choices.

jseek21 · Mar 8, 2003

Today at 12:37 AM Texas Lynn said this in Post #55 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=698792#post698792)

My point is related to the organized anti-abortion groups.  Pretty much they all oppose birth control, sex education, condom distribution, etc.  Some have talked to them of compromise:  "we could outlaw abortion after the first trimester if you support birth control and sex ed," they're told, but they will have none of it.  Their motive appears to MAKE THE WOMAN PAY for having illicit sex.

What groups do that? I know many people who work for Crisis Pregnancy Center, and every class they teach they give the best option for birth control: abstinence, but they also mention that condoms and sponges and birth control are available, and that they should be used. Yet they do tell youth not to have sex. Is this not a reasonable request?
And once again, it is much a man's responsiblility to prevent pregnancy as it is a woman's. If every male made a point to wait until marriage we wouldn't have this problem. But this is an EVERYONE thing, not just a woman thing and not just a man thing.

I support birth control. Yet killing is not birth control. It's population control. I have no problem with using birth control. God knows I don't want a million kids, but then I also do not wish to stop having sex after the fourth child.

You say, "pretty much", yet you have nothing to support your facts other than your ideas. And it isn't anti-abortion, it's pro-life.

-Dr. Jonathan Morgan

jseek21 · Mar 8, 2003

About it being a form of contraception to many, very true. I know women who prefer to have unprotected sex and see abortion as their birth control.

No one has let mentioned (except for my post by the ex-abortion director) the physical ailments that come from abortion. This is the process for an abortion:
A metallic rod is pushed into your uterus, opened, and then the methodic destruction of the child takes place. The doctor uses the insturment to tear off the legs and arms of the child. After that, the doctor crushes the head of the child and pulls it out. A suction device (basically a vaccum) is inserted to suck out the loose pieces of the child and the umbilical cord. This is VERY painful. Many women experience infections and trauma from the procedure. Yet there are plenty of cases of accidents. Some women have had their entire womb pulled out through their v*aginal canal. Others, their colon. They experience scarring from the insturments, sometimes so bad that they are no longer able to have sexual intersourse because of the excruciating pain it brings.

How this supports women's genecological health is beyond me.

-Dr. Jonathan Morgan

Texas Lynn · Mar 8, 2003

Today at 01:23 PM Dewjunkie said this in Post #57 Lynn, you didn't address my question of what makes the Iranian woman's death more tragic than the baby she killed?

The nature of oppression should suffice.  Much of the whining by anti-aborts about the 'chirren' is mere posing.  Iraqui children died by the thousands due to our boycott, not to mention North Koreans, Paraguayans, Kenyans, and so forth, yet the Christian Right does nothing about those and supports Republican officeholders whose policies facilitate those children's deaths. 

Tony Campolo addressed some of the ambiguities in the abortion issue when as he recounted in his book Is God  a Republican or a Democrat? his confrontation with a Catholic obstetrician over the issue of if he could save only one, the baby or Tony's wife, which would he do.  He had heard as a Catholic the doctor might feel obligated to save the baby over his wife.  That's just one example.  No one says it's more or less tragic than abortion but sometimes it comes down to actual life but potential life.  In the Iranian case, an execution by any means of the woman was the reprehensible action of the woman-hating religious fascists in power there and it certainly did not bring back the fetus.

I find it sad that you, as a mother, you can say that your children were not alive when they were inside you, and as a Christian, you can condone something that is blatantly violating one of the Ten Commandments.

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You're reading selectively.  I was one who my ex attempted to coerce me into aborting both times but I wouldn't.  I never addressed my own emotional connection to my kids before birth;  it was there, but that was because I had had a good home as a kid and wasn't abused or mistreated except by my two older sisters who are the type to order me to clean up their messes but basically harlmess.  So there wasn't a chance I'd be a shattered ex-victim in that regard, but so many are.  I don't think it's accurate to say to be pro-choice is to condone abortion, only that is realistic in knowing passing a law won't stop it.  It's a stretch to say it's against the Decalogue while the same groups opposing abortion support war and the death penalty. 

supermagdalena · Mar 8, 2003

The woman and man are going to pay anyways for their choices. Try to remember this is not a "men are evil and out to oppress women" thing.

Tony Campolo addressed some of the ambiguities in the abortion issue when as he recounted in his book Is God a Republican or a Democrat? his confrontation with a Catholic obstetrician over the issue of if he could save only one, the baby or Tony's wife, which would he do. He had heard as a Catholic the doctor might feel obligated to save the baby over his wife. That's just one example. No one says it's more or less tragic than abortion but sometimes it comes down to actual life but potential life.

In how many cases is this even relevant? The point is, that in most cases of abortion, the woman just made a stupid choice and doesn't feel like carrying the baby to term, so she kills it. Why not deal with those minute percentile case by case?

In the Iranian case, an execution by any means of the woman was the reprehensible action of the woman-hating religious fascists in power there and it certainly did not bring back the fetus.

Who's talking about Iran? Or are we now "women-hating religious fascists"? That doesn't make much sense since I'm a woman.

jseek21 · Mar 8, 2003

supermagdalena, don't take this in a wrong sick way, but you're my kind of woman.

Godspeed.

Texas Lynn · Mar 8, 2003

Yesterday at 03:16 PM supermagdalena said this in Post #58 I'm also slightly disturbed that you would refer to your children as "fetuses carried to term".

Well, not to their faces, not that they'd know what that is.  It is a correct description, though, isn't it?  I'm just not up on the politically correct language, sorry.  So if you'll tell me what I'm supposed to say I'll look into it.  It is always good when there are those who can instruct us in what we are supposed to say. 

young women and men who are decieved into thinking that an abortion is no big deal.

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I don't know any that'd fit that description but perhaps those teenagers and young adults for whom the term "loser" would apply (sure, I know it's cruel, but for lack of a better descriptor) might fit the bill.  Those abused as children, not loved by parents, from broken homes, with substance abuse problems, etc. could be so "deceived" but by whom?  There is certainly no organized effort to give them info like that.  OTOH the message of the anti-aborts is to further diminish and negate these young folks. 

JLovesUSo · Mar 8, 2003

"For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb." Psalm 139:13

"Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"? Isaiah 29:16

"Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7

"Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb" Isaiah 44:2

"Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;" Isaiah 44:24

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" Jer 1:5

---------------------------------------------

"Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me." Mark 9:37

"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven" Matthew 18:10

Texas Lynn · Mar 8, 2003

Yesterday at 06:39 PM jseek21 said this in Post #65 What groups do that? (anti abortion groups that oppose birth control and sex education) 

American Life League, National Right to Life, The Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, Operation Rescue (Opperation Oppress You), Concerned Women forAmerica, and just about every other organized group.

I support birth control. Yet killing is not birth control. It's population control. I have no problem with using birth control. God knows I don't want a million kids, but then I also do not wish to stop having sex after the fourth child.

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You'd be anathema saying that at a meeting of any of these groups.  If you're being honest here, more power to you, but you're naive about what the anti abort groups are doing.

You say, "pretty much", yet you have nothing to support your facts other than your ideas.

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As do you.  Kristin Luker's book Abortion is the best authoritative source of data.  I'd also recommend Culture Wars by james Davison Hunter.

And it isn't anti-abortion, it's pro-life. 

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Barney Frank has their number when he said "For these groups life begins at conception and ends at birth".  That's a PR move, nothing more.  Those groups could care less about the women, men and children struggling, they just want to control them.

jseek21 · Mar 9, 2003

Yesterday at 10:21 PM Texas Lynn said this in Post #72 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=700423#post700423)

American Life League, National Right to Life, The Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, Operation Rescue (Opperation Oppress You), Concerned Women forAmerica, and just about every other organized group.

You'd be anathema saying that at a meeting of any of these groups.  If you're being honest here, more power to you, but you're naive about what the anti abort groups are doing.

As do you.  Kristin Luker's book Abortion is the best authoritative source of data.  I'd also recommend Culture Wars by james Davison Hunter.

Barney Frank has their number when he said "For these groups life begins at conception and ends at birth".  That's a PR move, nothing more.  Those groups could care less about the women, men and children struggling, they just want to control them.

Perhaps I should introduce myself: I work closely with these PRO-LIFE groups.

Secondly, I have posted here many facts and have many more, including the letter from the ex-planned parenthood director, the process for an abortion, facts on the unhealthiness of it, and the truth about what these groups seek to do. While I am sure there are a few bad apples (for example, many catholics are against abortion but do not support birth control) they are of the minority.

"Life begins at conception and ends at birth."
Barney Frank, frankly, was an idiot. For these groups, the sanctity of life is important. The groups I work with not only support pro-life, but they also help pregnant women. They cousel women who are victims of rape. They take in unwanted children and help them find homes. They educate youth on the importance of abstinence and birth control.

It really comes down to this Lynn, "Thou shalt not murder." As Christians we are to live as Christians. It is not enough to just not have an abortion. If we support abortion we purjure ourselves before the world. They see us say Christ, walk out the door, and deny it by our life. They see us say that we believe in the Bible and God but see us at a pro-abortion rally. What do they think then? They know for all the bravado, for all the hype, Christians are merely hypocrites, plain and simple.

-Dr. Jonathan Morgan

Stormy · Mar 9, 2003

UPON WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT? I can see the wisdom of seeing a late third trimester fetus as all-but-human, but a zygote, embryo, or early first trimester fetus without a brain function is at pest potential humanity, not actual.

Lynn: I find this position as a turning from the truth. We must all pass through this fragile phase. Abortion at any time can not be seen as natural. It is man's intrusion into the life of another.

You talk of abused pregnant girls. I have personal knowledge of how that feels. But in my case, I decided that it was time to stop the cycle of abuse of children!

My daughter is beautiful, and I love her dearly. With God's help, I have made a good life for us. I rejoice in the joys that she has brought to my life. There has not been a moment when I regretted my decision.

But the others? The pregnant girls who could not love their own child...how do they feel today?

geocajun · Mar 9, 2003

We do not create people, God does it through us.
We may be the instrumental cause, but God is the principal cause of it.
To think that God would create a life and then support our 'right' to destroy it is purely ignorant. Abortion is never a solution.
One cannot do evil so that good may come of it.

"When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. " -- Sirach 15:14

supermagdalena · Mar 9, 2003

Exodus 21:22-25:
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is a serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Then explain what that means.

It seem to me that you are looking at a minute percentile who bomb abortion clinics and likewise and are judging everyone by that small group. The majority of Christians are sympathetic to the young women and sympathetic to their situation, and are all for sex education and birth control.

I just don't think we shoudl let it go to the point where we're saying, "Hey, have sex all you want outside of marriage,". Hate the sin, not the people.

Texas Lynn · Mar 9, 2003

Yesterday at 02:23 PM jseek21 said this in Post #73 Perhaps I should introduce myself: I work closely with these PRO-LIFE groups.

Wow!  So was that one of your friends shouting sexual and racial epithets with me and my friend when we went to a planned parenthood clinic where she got a depo-provera shot?

While I am sure there are a few bad apples (for example, many catholics are against abortion but do not support birth control) they are of the minority.

Click to expand...

Randall Terry and Flip Benham are proto-fascists;  Terry even advocates a return to what he calls "Biblical Slavery".  As for the more politically oriented they do not condemn doctor murders and clinic attacks.  Indeed, one who's wanted by the FBI for this type of terrorism, Eric Rudolph,  is allegedly being hidden by so-called "Pro-lifers".

About birth control and abortion, I have seen anti-aborts state opposition to any form of birth control that prevents fetal implantation, which are a lot of them.  They oppose the "Morning-After Pills".  They oppose international family planning and condom distribution.  

As Christians we are to live as Christians.

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IMO the hatred spewed by anti-abort groups shows they have a long way to go here.

 They see us say that we believe in the Bible and God but see us at a pro-abortion rally.

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Pro-choice is most assuredly not pro-abortion.  There has never been a pro-abortion rally to my knowledge.  I am certain when asked 'What would Jesus Do? ' that he would support the pro-choicers cause if he took a position due to the fact it is us and not the other side that honors these troubled women with unwanted pregnancies.  I certainly do not doubt that I honor God when I support pro-choice one iota.

 

 

Texas Lynn · Mar 9, 2003

Yesterday at 03:04 PM Stormy said this in Post #74 Lynn: I find this position as a turning from the truth.

I find a turning to the truth. 

You take your position, I'll take mine.

supermagdalena · Mar 9, 2003

I see that Biblical evidence isn't valid here?

Stormy · Mar 9, 2003

Today at 08:19 PM Texas Lynn said this in Post #77 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701803#post701803)

I am certain when asked 'What would Jesus Do? ' that he would support the pro-choicers cause if he took a position due to the fact it is us and not the other side that honors these troubled women with unwanted pregnancies.  I certainly do not doubt that I honor God when I support pro-choice one iota.

 

 

I do not know. I can not speak for Jesus, as you seem to feel free to do.

But from my Bible and my own thoughts... Abortion is wrong.

I could never be pro-choice... now that I know what so many have chosen.

It is sad.

Jesus was pro-abortion....

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