The Reason Why Job Suffered?

tatteredsoul · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Except that isn't not what happened at all. Job did turn against God which is the sin Job eventually repented of. Has anyone even read the book?

Guess not.

When did Job turn against God?

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Guess not.

When did Job turn against God?

This is the earliest I can find:

Job 6:2 Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!
Job 6:3 For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job charges God with symbolically attacking him with poisoned arrows, and unnamed terrors that God has at his disposal. Is this really what God does to those he loves and considers righteous?

It gets worse as the chapters progress.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Except that isn't not what happened at all. Job did turn against God which is the sin Job eventually repented of. Has anyone even read the book?

Yes I would hope that any one who is commenting has indeed read the book of Job.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

Mr unisus. I was "beholden" by HIM first and even before I had even read the book of Job

Or any of HIS written word yet

tatteredsoul · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
This is the earliest I can find:

Job 6:2 Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!
Job 6:3 For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job charges God with symbolically attacking him with poisoned arrows, and unnamed terrors that God has at his disposal. Is this really what God does to those he loves and considers righteous?

It gets worse as the chapters progress.

That isn't turning against God, that is therapy.

Job knows at the very least God allows the things to happen. But, he is in no way turning against God - or the book would have stopped there and God would have been a liar.

The whole exercise was to show the Satan that Job was upright and faithful even if he lost everything. The satan''s case asserts Job would turn ON God.

Far Side Of the Moon · Aug 23, 2016

unisus said:
I don't just look like Jesus by accident, my friend.

And further more, save me the spiel because Christ's suffering is not a bottomline for dealing with tragedy. That is not the purpose of Christ's suffering. Christ suffered to illustrate that emotionally blind people rise to power through acting and will kill anyone who exposes it because they have no conscience; they only pretend it on the surface like the "white washed robes" of the Pharisees who claimed to believe in God.

As for the message of Job, you can save the speech because you're talking to a real person not a brick wall. The message of Job is not even about Job; it's about teaching people not to victim-blame. That is all.

You still didn't answer my question...are you a Christian? I know you're a real person..I myself have personally spilled my guts about being hurt, losing faith ECT..though not to jobs extent I understand pain , I understand the desire for justice...i wanted that so much when my pastor hurt me...for god to something... So I get it. Its not fair , I certaintky didn't feel like my situation wasn't fair but I is what it is things happen, unfair things happen all the time but we have to get past them..we cant let them have a hold on our lives....and the journey for me isn't easy at all..im pretty terrified to trust God again but I want to try some how.

heavenlyimages · Aug 23, 2016

Whether or not the story of Job is literal or not... it is the inspired Word of the Bible. It's a story that Jesus studied like all those in the Old Testament. Just remember that we all must keep focused through all agreements to disagree that everything points to Jesus on the Cross. All I know is Jesus... and Him crucified...

mark kennedy · Aug 23, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
That isn't turning against God, that is therapy.

Job knows at the very least God allows the things to happen. But, he is in no way turning against God - or the book would have stopped there and God would have been a liar.

The whole exercise was to show the Satan that Job was upright and faithful even if he lost everything. The satan''s case asserts Job would turn ON God.

Job does make the statement that God had wronged him. He also complains that even if he could meet him in court, he and just continue the punish him. Job really didn't know and this looks like divine wrath.

Philip_B · Aug 23, 2016

I believe that God is big enough to cope with us being cranky with him now and again, however that is not what it is about.

What the Story of Job tells us, and I think we should really take it on board, is that bad things do happen to people - and that does not mean that they are being punished or that they have done something wrong (allowing for the fact that we all do do wrong things). Misfortune does not indicate the particular displeasure of God. Illness does not equate to God's particular judgement. Bad things are in the world because all have sinned and are falling short of the glory of God however the rain falls and the just and the unjust alike.

The real message of Job is not about Job, it is about how we need to support and help and respond, not to gaze and wonder 'what did they do wrong'.

I was once asked if I would visit someone in hospital with aids. I said 'yes'. The shocked response was 'why?'. And my answer was 'because they would be sick'.

Profoundly lurking i the book of Job is the question of evil, more precisely the problem of theodicy. If God is Good, and Just, and All-Powerful, why is it that bad things happen to good people. I don't believe that there are any convenient answers, and in the story Job is wrestling with this. I believe the story calls us to be better friends to those in need than Job's comforters were. Fair weather friends are all well and good, but we really need people to hold on the us in the storm.

Achilles6129 · Aug 23, 2016

Here's an interesting passage, quoted earlier by Fireinfolding:

" 3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a pure and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, so that you stirred me up to destroy him without reason.”" Job 2:3 (NET)

In this passage God seems to be saying that he moved against Job for no (moral) reason. Very interesting. So apparently it's just for God to cause someone to suffer for no moral reason whatsoever.

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

miknik5 said:
Yes I would hope that any one who is commenting has indeed read the book of Job.

It appears a great many have not since they claim it contains things that it does not.

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
That isn't turning against God, that is therapy.

It is not "therapy" It is turning against God and it is a sin and Job repented of it.

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
Here's an interesting passage, quoted earlier by Fireinfolding:

" 3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a pure and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, so that you stirred me up to destroy him without reason.”" Job 2:3 (NET)

In this passage God seems to be saying that he moved against Job for no (moral) reason. Very interesting. So apparently it's just for God to cause someone to suffer for no moral reason whatsoever.

You have misread it. That is what Satan wanted God to do but God did not do it:

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

God decides not to put forth his hand but allow Satan to do it instead.

Achilles6129 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
You have misread it. That is what Satan wanted God to do but God did not do it:

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

God decides not to put forth his hand but allow Satan to do it instead.

But he just said, in Job 2:3, that he did move against Job. I haven't misread it at all.

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

mark kennedy said:
Job does make the statement that God had wronged him. He also complains that even if he could meet him in court, he and just continue the punish him. Job really didn't know and this looks like divine wrath.

I'm not sure we can say Job was under Gods wrath. It doesn't appear to be that way, even though God did rebuke Job at one point.

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

Wasn't it Jobs friends who said Job was under Gods wrath? Wasn't it also God who rebuked Jobs friends for misjudging him?

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

Far Side Of the Moon said:
I'm so confused by your text....everyone here who is a christian believes or should believe what the bible says whole heartedly unless it is plainly stated to be a parable. I will be the first to say I have issues with trust and confidence in god..but I do know that the bible is very real and I'm sure God wants everything he placed in the book to resonate with us... The book of job is there for the billions of people who are probably suffering as job suffered or worse and are searching for an answer. While I may seem a bit cruel in your opinion to " transcend trauma" I believe its for our own good...because the latter is to just wallow , be defeated and replay the trauma over and over until you decide to take matters into your own hands...so in a way trust is needed BC it keeps you from going insane. Yes its a bitter pill to swallow but hopefully when we cross over our pain on earth will make sense. I'm in no way saying there's no need for empathy, empathy is especially important during times of tragedies and many Christians have been guilty of just spitting out scriptural one liners in an attempt to help but just create further devastation instead..and as you can see in the book of Job god was not pleases with his friends...so I dont think God wants us to dismiss others problems as well as our own, I think he just wants us to trust God so we will have less problems,less worry,less stress, and more of a peace of mind. Seems easy when written down but harder to put into practice..but its not impossible..i hope that helps

I agree. I believe all things work good for those who love God. That doesn't mean they will never experience pain, to the contrary, but it will work good. Many times Christians are like Jobs friends I think, they judge without understanding fully.

Alithis · Aug 23, 2016

unisus said:
Miknik, you've littered an entire thread with dozens upon dozens of posts trying to shove your affinity to the notion that God is unreachably higher & mysterious while we are selfish beings who need to submit and learn to transcend trauma.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that I am repulsed by this behavior, and I am moreover confused why you continue to desperately cling to something you yourself don't even believe.

You don't have to be right. The fact of the matter is that this story isn't anymore a depiction of reality than the morals in Little Red riding hood. Trying to force us into believing this is truly a divine incident is ridiculous, especially considering the Leviathan is a dragon which we know does not exist although this "God" character gave pages of detailed description about it.

If we are to take any positive lesson from such a famous book, it is to pull together and quit assuming that misfortunate is always deserved, and that trauma & grief must be comforted and healed together rather than telling someone to "deal with it because God's logic is higher than yours".

You are sounding precisely like the people in this story who accused Job, and moreover God did not rebuke Job as a lesson for you to now run around pretending to be God. Even if this story was a perfect reality, you do not go around telling people "God's logic is higher than yours so give glory!"

First and foremost, God didn't even rebuke Job's trauma until he was ready to heal it. Unless you're in the business of providing millions of dollars to victims, I am unsure why you are running around preaching God's response as a lesson to people. In the story God was able to amusingly confront Job's trauma purely because God had at that moment the power and request from Job to do this.

You are not God, and you are not our source of deliverance, so preaching about God's response to Job's trauma "as a lesson" is absurd.

Again, when you have the means & power and will to cure a person of their suffering and losses, then you can begin commenting on how they should feel & respond in their distress. Until then what you are actually offering is very dangerous spiritually.

You DONT speak for every one. I for one would never equate the word of God to a fairytale of red riding hood.nor declare it to be untrue...

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

Far Side Of the Moon said:
Very true..i think they're talking about common grace god bestows to believers or people in general period; food,clothing,health,safety...the very basic.

I do think it can be removed when 1) you are being tested 2) you've sinned 3) it's simply time for a person to be with God.

Anywho, this is a very interesting discussion that I'm enjoying very much.

I tend to think about it this way, if God allows us to endure the lack of necessities i.e., clothing, or if he allows us to endure any hardship, then its because he wants to clothe us with spiritual garments. When the Lord promised that God would clothe us he referred to the flowers of the field and about how much more beautiful they were than a kings robe. I believe that the Lord was referring to spiritual clothing in that scripture, as well as materialistic clothing. The apostles talk about being clothed in spiritual things. Matthew 6:28-30

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Yes, just because there is an aspect of humanity to learn from (suffering) doesn't mean that is the point of the allegory. Lazerus, or even Joseph, would be a better story to help inspire people in suffering situations.

I like David's example, and Pauls too. Job seems to be a good example of how religious friends can be less than edifying.

James does tell us to use Job as an example.

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