Local government meeting starts with Satanic prayer

SepiaAndDust

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Sure. It's simple. If the laws of the land progress and evolve (or even mutate) in their interpretation and enforcement, then they could eventually curtail Christians from actually acting upon their living worship as mandated by God (in the Bible). If and when this becomes the case--which it hasn't quite yest, fortunately--Christians will have a real, live political problem to deal with, both on economic and social fronts. Anyone remember Hitler?

The First Amendment actively prevents that from happening. To evolve or mutate from that would require not only that US Christians become a tiny minority, but also that the majority of US citizens become hostile to freedom of religion.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Some of the "thanks" you're inferring here kind of depends on the extent to which the 1st Amendment is compatible with the 1st Commandment... o_O

The First Commandment applies only to Christians, the First Amendment applies to all Americans regardless of religion.

Where's the problem?
 
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Nithavela

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Nithavela

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Sure. It's simple. If the laws of the land progress and evolve (or even mutate) in their interpretation and enforcement, then they could eventually curtail Christians from actually acting upon their living worship as mandated by God (in the Bible). If and when this becomes the case--which it hasn't quite yest, fortunately--Christians will have a real, live political problem to deal with, both on economic and social fronts. Anyone remember Hitler?

2PhiloVoid
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TLK Valentine

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The point is not that the satanists don't know it, the point is that many christians don't.

Mt original statement applies to them as well: The smart ones already know that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The First Amendment actively prevents that from happening. To evolve or mutate from that would require not only that US Christians become a tiny minority, but also that the majority of US citizens become hostile to freedom of religion.

Stranger things have happened in the history of politics. While I appreciate the advantages of democracy, I'm under no illusion that it'll keep protecting me even as it claims to do as we move into the future. (And I sincerely hope I'm wrong ... )

By the way, if you'd like to see one source that has contributed to my ideas, you might want to read the late Walter Berns' book titled, "The First Amendment and the Future of American Democracy." I think you'll find it enlightening, especially since it isn't a Christian book but rather one written by an arousing political scientist.

Peace
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2PhiloVoid

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The First Commandment applies only to Christians, the First Amendment applies to all Americans regardless of religion.

Where's the problem?

Well, you might want to begin by laying them side by side and see where the underlying philosophical tensions between the two seem to be the most concentrated.

Of course, I'm not saying that the 1st Commandment should replace the 1st Amendment as law of the land. No, my whole focus is on another basket of political goodies. :cool:

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Nithavela

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Cute...but which side did you think my implication regarding Hitler was placed? Hint: it's not the Christian side.

2PhiloVoid
Doesn't matter, you lose both ways.
 
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Nithavela

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Well, you might want to begin by laying them side by side and see where the underlying philosophical tensions between the two seem to be the most concentrated.

Of course, I'm not saying that the 1st Commandment should replace the 1st Amendment as law of the land. No, my whole focus is on another basket of political goodies. :cool:

2PhiloVoid
I'd argue that the laws of the USA have much more in common with the 11 satanic laws than with the 10 commandments (either set).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Doesn't matter, you lose both ways.

Uh...yeah. That's what a number of Christians in the US are typically concerned about ... :confused: Oh well, it's not like we weren't warned in advance. ;)

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2PhiloVoid

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I'd argue that the laws of the USA have much more in common with the 11 satanic laws than with the 10 commandments (either set).

That's always such a comforting thought, too. :confused: (Gee, I guess I'll have to look up the 11 satanic laws, just so I can have some peace of mind about how things might go to "Hell in a Handbag." It's always good to be "up" on these things.)

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Nithavela

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That's always such a comforting thought, too. :confused: (Gee, I guess I'll have to look up the 11 satanic laws, just so I can have some peace of mind about how things might go to "Hell in a Handbag." It's always good to be "up" on these things.)

2PhiloVoid
They are easy to find with google or another search engine of your choice.

I'm not certain I'm allowed to post them here.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Well, you might want to begin by laying them side by side and see where the underlying philosophical tensions between the two seem to be the most concentrated.

Except that they're not meant to be laid side by side -- why would you do such a thing?

The First Amendment is a law which limits the power of the government. It ensures that the people are free to worship as they please.

The First Commandment, insofar as it's relevant to Christianity (it's actually lifted from the Jews, but what of Christianity isn't?), is a tenet of Christianity -- and Christianity, as I've often been told, is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. How does the government enter into that?

If anything, the two rules complement each other quite nicely -- The First Commandment tells what you, as an individual Christian, must do, and the First Amendment forces the government to maintain a level playing field so that it can never prevent you from doing so...

... of course, a level playing field is just that, isn't it? It can't prevent the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or even Satanists, either... is that the part that bothers you?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Except that they're not meant to be laid side by side -- why would you do such a thing?
It's called philosophical evaluation, my dear Watson! (Aww! But who'd want to do that, because that might tell us that there are some underlying ideas that we don't really want to become aware of. Gawd forbid!)

The First Amendment is a law which limits the power of the government. It ensures that the people are free to worship as they please.
Well, you just rock yourself to sleep each night with that assumption.

The First Commandment, insofar as it's relevant to Christianity (it's actually lifted from the Jews, but what of Christianity isn't?), is a tenet of Christianity -- and Christianity, as I've often been told, is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. How does the government enter into that?
Not with difficulty. Ever read Christian history as it pertains to its first 250 years of existence in the Roman Empire? Or better yet. Just read the book of Exodus. I think we all know what the Bible accuses Pharaoh of doing. (But, I know, we're supposedly over that now, what with democracy and all. I don't know--what would James Madison have thought?)

If anything, the two rules complement each other quite nicely -- The First Commandment tells what you, as an individual Christian, must do, and the First Amendment forces the government to maintain a level playing field so that it can never prevent you from doing so...
And I suppose you think only the Bible is open to interpretation. Surprise! The US Constitution is also open to interpretation.

... of course, a level playing field is just that, isn't it? It can't prevent the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or even Satanists, either... is that the part that bothers you?
Well, a level playing field would be great, assuming that the various political groups in the US remain level as well, and no one is cited for "hate speech" simple because they have an exclusive view on reality.
 
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TLK Valentine

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It's called philosophical evaluation, my dear Watson! (Aww! But who'd want to do that, because that might tell us that there are some underlying ideas that we don't really want to become aware of. Gawd forbid!)

Sounds a lot more like apples and oranges... but let's see how long you can keep the pseudo-intellectual facade up...

Well, you just rock yourself to sleep each night with that assumption.

... not very long, it would seem.

Did you forget to make a point here, or did the server crash?

Not with difficulty. Ever read Christian history as it pertains to its first 250 years of existence in the Roman Empire?
Or better yet. Just read the book of Exodus. I think we all know what the Bible accuses Pharaoh of doing.

Neither the Roman Empire not the Egyptians, to the best of my knowledge, had a First Amendment, so such comparisons would be irrelevant.

(But, I know, we're supposedly over that now, what with democracy and all. I don't know--what would James Madison have thought?)

He probably would thought that you're not sounding like a very big fan of democracy right about now.

And I suppose you think only the Bible is open to interpretation. Surprise! The US Constitution is also open to interpretation.

But of course, so I'll forgive you for being surprised -- but while the Bible is open to interpretation by individual Christians in order to improve their personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the duty to interpret the US Constitution rests with nine individuals (well, normally nine; right-wing cowardice has reduced it to eight for the moment) In Washington, D.C.

Their interpretation guides the law of the land -- yours is worth squat. (Yes, of course, mine is as well; the difference is that mine happens to agree with theirs)

Well, a level playing field would be great, assuming that the various political groups in the US remain level as well, and no one is cited for "hate speech" simple because they have an exclusive view on reality.

Hate speech is a crime, whether you want it to be or not -- and if your religion has an ever-blurring line between itself and hate speech, it might be time for a touch of introspection...

But this is all off topic... This is about the Kenai Penninsula Borough, who allows ministers of any religion the opportunity to bless them, strictly on a first come, first serve basis. One day, a Satanist made it to the front of the line.

What specifically about this fact has you all in a twist?
 
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MrSpikey

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TLK, a well reasoned post as usual. As a non-American, I did wonder about this, though:

Hate speech is a crime

I had always thought the first Amendment protected almost every kind of speech, hateful or not, from being a crime (with a few exceptions)?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sounds a lot more like apples and oranges... but let's see how long you can keep the pseudo-intellectual facade up...
Quite a long time; but I wouldn't want to wear you out, TLK. ;)

... not very long, it would seem.

Did you forget to make a point here, or did the server crash?
No, the idea I'm implying is that all of this will be open to empirical observation (mostly) as we move into the future. Let's see if in 10, 20, or 40 years time whether my political concerns attain or not. Of course, I'm hoping that they don't and that you can come back at that time and say, "See, Philo, you had nothing to worry about!"

Neither the Roman Empire not the Egyptians, to the best of my knowledge, had a First Amendment, so such comparisons would be irrelevant.
Like I said earlier "..."

He probably would thought that you're not sounding like a very big fan of democracy right about now.
No, democracy is very nice, as long as the social and ideological demographics are in one's political corner. The Christian corner is running out of steam in the US...even if does get a trump card to play for a few years. ;)

But of course, so I'll forgive you for being surprised -- but while the Bible is open to interpretation by individual Christians in order to improve their personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the duty to interpret the US Constitution rests with nine individuals (well, normally nine; right-wing cowardice has reduced it to eight for the moment) In Washington, D.C.

Their interpretation guides the law of the land -- yours is worth squat. (Yes, of course, mine is as well; the difference is that mine happens to agree with theirs)
Exactly ... ... this is what I was leading up to. Have you read the Walter Berns' book I recommended to another chap above lately?

Hate speech is a crime, whether you want it to be or not -- and if your religion has an ever-blurring line between itself and hate speech, it might be time for a touch of introspection...

But this is all off topic... This is about the Kenai Penninsula Borough, who allows ministers of any religion the opportunity to bless them, strictly on a first come, first serve basis. One day, a Satanist made it to the front of the line.

What specifically about this fact has you all in a twist?
I think it remains to be seen just who is doing the actual "blurring of the lines." But, be that as it may, you are right about one thing, this thread is about the Kenai Penninsula Borough's accommodation for Luciferians. And if they think it's good for democracy... then by golly, it must be, ... right?

2PhiloVoid
 
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timewerx

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I might hang around while a Jew or Muslim offered prayer in an ecumenical spirit, but, in the case of a satanist, I would walk out of the chamber until they were done.

I would rather take my chances with a satanist than a Muslim. Muslims are still the worst group of men (excluding women) I encountered my whole life. I lived and worked in the Middle East for over two years so I should know. The cases of sexual harassment are way beyond alarming! Thus whenever I see Muslim man pray, one word comes to mind - hypocrites!
 
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