Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

ac28 said:

Actually, LastSeven, I can't think of anything you said that is scriptural. I don't agree with Jerry that often but, with his debate with you, he's right on the money. Even BAB2 knows more truth than you do.

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I know you claimed the New Covenant does not apply to Gentiles...


2Co 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2Co 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God.
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,
2Co 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

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BABerean2 said:

Jerry,

You have gone off the Darby/Scofield Plantation by putting both peoples of God into the New Covenant Church.

Classic Dispensationalists like Clearance Larkin declared that the Church is the Church and Israel is Israel and never the twain shall meet. This allows them to claim that the Jews will be in an earthly kingdom and the Church will be in a heavenly kingdom. Your Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven claims come directly from this part of the doctrine.

Your present viewpoint is another of the many mutations of John Darby's doctrine in an attempt to make the doctrine match up with scripture. You cannot have it both ways. Either there are two separate peoples of God with two separate kingdoms or there are not.

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baberean2,

1. You are being quite ridiculous and senseless.
There are no separate people when it comes to believers because we are one in the Spirit.

2. There are two separate peoples in race as jew and gentile. These two races are one in the body today.

3. Jews have a promise of an earthly calling concerning the land and the Kingdom that are specific to the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants.

4. Both the jewish nation and the new testament church were called out and Israel was the called out nation which was governed by laws etc and ruled over earthy people etc.
5. Their gifts and callings Paul talks about that are without repentance meaning they are unconditional and will come to pass upon the condition of obedience was all about the earthly land and earthly kingdom.

6. Psalm 37:11 was a Psalm of David and it was under the law of Moses and it dealt with the kingdom which was promised concerning David and his house and in verse 7 he is talking about resting in the Lord and waiting patiently for him and prospering in him and bringing down the wicked for the evil doers will be cut off and shall not be. In the context of the Davidic kingdom which was Jesus message of the KOH and the KOG, Jesus said to the jewish nation in the Sermon on the Mount; Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth Matthew 5:17. Those backslidden jews in sin from the old covenant were to be meek to inherit the kingdom.
7. Gentiles don't understand this because they are too busy thinking it is just a general passage and they want to say what it means to the church today. The problem is that it wasn't written to the church and if one wants to know what it means to the church they need to learn first what it meant to the jew and realize it still applies.

8. Most gentiles don't even understand the KOH and the KOG message unless they have studied the proper messianic jewish interpretation or at least understand proper context and understand the jewish covenants. Obviously, you don't.

9. The church has a heavenly calling which is found in Hebrews 3:1.
Paul said in Ephesians 2 we are set in heavenly and high places. The church is a micro organism and though we have certain biblical criteria for structure of the church called church government is still not the same exact connection as Israel in the context of their earthly theocracy and culture of daily living.

10. Now you can use language to make it sound the same but it is not.

11. As far as a heavenly calling future wise rulership for the church will be in the earthly kingdom the same as Israel except not as the head of the nations for we will all be Kings, priests and rulers.

12. The church will be a part of the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God which will be separate from the earthly Jerusalem which will be the earthly capitol. The earthly nations shall flow into it.

13. As far as heavenly rule that the jewish nation will not partake of is the churches positions of authority in other parts of the universe. Colossians 1:16

14. Callings and positions of authority has nothing to do with being two separate peoples or two separate kingdoms except maybe in your pathetic and scripture less opinion.

15. You are trying to make the argument that the only way for a person to be saved in the future tribulation is through the present church today to go through the tribulation.

16. You are also saying that if they have separate positions of authority then they cannot be the same people.

17. You are also saying that there cannot be two kingdoms at all.

18. The KOH physical earth is a part of the KOG physical universe. This is why there are parallel passages of the KOG physical in place of the KOH.

20. However, the KOH the earthly sphere and location and reign is not the whole universe.

21. Jesus is given the kingdom by the Father and when the son get done with the 1000 year reign he will give it back to the Father so God can be all in all. This means that the KOH physical will be in harmony with the KOG physical (the whole universe). It will still be the KOH or as Daniel put it as the kingdom under the heavens (earthly location) but it will be known as the KOG physical because God will be all in all.

22. There are other kingdoms with thrones, dominion and principalities or powers visible and invisible throughout the universe.

23. Now if you want to argue with the scripture or its logic go ahead and be my guest.

24. Now if you would like to be completely specific what you mean by two peoples, two kingdoms go ahead, I'm all ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerry kelso

LastSeven said:

Yes, there is. Did you not read the document I linked to?

Revelation 11:17
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This tells us that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of God the Father and He will reign forever and ever. When do you think this happens?

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants

This tells us that the time of the judging of the dead has come, as well as the time of the rewarding of the servants. When do you think this happens?

So don't tell me there is no scripture that says the seventh trumpet blows after the thousand years. It's right there in front of your eyes. Stop avoiding it.


Dude, are you serious right now? I'm the one who told you that Satan was cast out of heaven when Jesus received all his authority and you said that he was not yet cast out of heaven. Now you're accusing me of not understanding? Let me remind you of what you said

"The mystery happens in Revelation 12 which is Satan being cast out of heaven and will no longer be able to accuse the brethren in heaven. He still can do this."

You clearly said that he will be cast out of heaven sometime in the future, and now you're saying Satan was kicked out of heaven for good and asking me if I can read??? Seriously? I can definitely read, but the question is, can you remember what you wrote?


So now agree that this is in the past? I thought you just said he can still accuse us in heaven. Ya, you did. You said: He still can do this. So how can Satan still accuse us in heaven if he's been kicked out for good?

So you agree that Jesus received all authority and power, so why can't you just admit that Jesus currently reigns? Why do you insist on Jesus being physically on earth with all governments subject to Him? The only time that happens is on the new earth.

Are you on drugs or something? Did you forget already what you said in your second point? Let me remind you. You said "Satan was kicked out of heaven for good" and now you're telling me this is still future??? You're just all over the map on this issue, aren't you? Maybe take a minute and sort it out in your head before you post.

I really don't know why you thought all this was relevant to the discussion, or how this proves I'm wrong about ... anything. Try to focus Jerry.

Again, I don't know what the point is of all this drivel. Completely irrelevant obfuscation of the issue.

Ha! Too much information for me to digest? You haven't told me anything yet, except that you think it's all future, no wait, you agree that it was in the past, except that it's still future, or was it in the past? How about you clarify it in your head first, then come back and either prove to me that I'm wrong, or admit that you can't. I'm waiting. And don't worry, I can digest it.

More big words without anything to back you up.

Do you not realize that you're repeating exactly what I said? Of course the spiritual resurrection happens when a person gets saved. That's my point! Why do you think you're arguing with me here when this is exactly the point I made in my document. Makes me wonder if you were able to digest it all.

Exactly!!! That's how we rule!!! Now you're getting it.

No argument there, but this is also irrelevant in terms of the thousand year reign. The thousand year reign is a spiritual reign, not a physical reign. You have to get that out of your head. The only time Jesus will physically reign on earth is when he is seated next to his Father's throne on the new earth, when Jesus is made subject to the Father, and they will reign together forever and ever. (This is also described at the blowing of the seventh trumpet by the way)

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lastseven,

1. I hate to break it to you but Revelation 11 pertains to the tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble. This is before the 1000 year reign.

2. Revelation 19 shows the false prophet and the beast are both thrown into the lake of fire at the battle of Armageddon and then Revelation 20 shows that Satan is thrown into the bottomless pit for 1000 years and at the end of the 1000 years Satan is loosed and deceives many and God sends fire out of heaven to destroy the rebels. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the false prophet and the beast were already thrown in 1000 years before.

3. Revelation 11:17 is in the middle of the tribulation and is not fulfilled until the end of the tribulation.
There are many trumpets blown at the feast and you have to study them. For the most part verse 15, 16, 17 and part of 18 are in anticipation of what will transpire. And if you think that verse 15 refers back to 10:7 about the mystery of God you are wrong because the second coming was never a mystery of God but in Revelation 12 Satan as the accuser of the brethren is kicked out of heaven and does not have this privilege anymore after this is the mystery of God and this happens in the middle of the tribulation not the Day of the Lord or otherwise known as the second coming.

4. The 1000 years is only shown in Revelation 20 and it is after the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16. The 1000 years is also the period of the millennial kingdom and when Satan is loosed for 1000 years. Show me where it plainly says that the 7th trumpet is blown after the 1000 years in Revelation 20. There is nothing about the 1000 years in Revelation 11 and there is nothing about the 7th trumpet blowing in Revelation 20 in the passage concerning the 1000 years.

5. You are trying to piece it together and very poorly and you are wrong.
First of all, Jesus was talking about Satan when he was cast out of heaven when he revolted against God in the beginning. Read Isaiah 14:12-14.

6. There is no scripture that says Satan was cast out of heaven when he said all authority was given to him over earth and heaven. Matthew 28:18 was after Jesus talked about seeing Satan falling like lightning from heaven in Luke 10:18. You are confused.
Satan fell from heaven before man was ever created. In Job Satan was the accuser of the brethren and met with God. So yes he can still do this and will till the future. Satan being kicked out of heaven and barred from living there has no bearing on him of whether or not he can or cannot accuse the brethren before the throne. That is really weak comprehension.

7. I didn't say Jesus didn't reign for he reigns in the hearts of believers. He has authority over nature and he put kings into place of positions and so on.

8. The government of God's theocracy was prophesied in Isaiah 9:6-7 and this is about the earthly kingdom which is the KOH Jesus preached about Matthew 4:17 and the kingdom under the heavens which Daniel prophesied about being forever Daniel 7:27. It is not about the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21.

9. Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron and so will the saints. For goodness sakes read all the passages about the KOH in the Old testament and even the new testament scriptures that talk about the church ruling in the earthly kingdom.

10. On drugs? Are you kidding me? I already explained about Satan being kicked out of heaven for good and him still having access to accuse the brethren at the throne. Job showed this and that was after Satan being kicked out of heaven. You are so one track is why you can't understand anything about what would be a paradox to you.

11. So I am not all over the map but you must be in outer space like a space cadet. Lol! It also sounds a little flighty. Lol again!
Once again you are wrong and proves you cannot process anything simple lot alone complex.

12. You misunderstand and misconstrue what I said because you lack comprehension and true logic and you have tunnel vision because all you know is your point of view.

13. Your point of view about spiritual resurrection and spiritual ruling is not about just the point of being saved for all believers understand that.

14. It is more about ruling spiritually connected to the millennial kingdom now to erase the 1000 years being the millennial kingdom.

15. We are learning to rule and reign spiritually by fighting the fight of faith against the powers of darkness and learning the true law of love and our purpose and destiny in this life. It is preparation for the future kingdom of ruling and reigning. Paul said, if we suffer, we shall reign.

16. So it is you who do not understand what your real point is so how can you understand my point?

17. I already showed you that Jesus will come to the earth at the battle of Armageddon to restore the KOH Revelation 19:11-15.

18. Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7 and many other scriptures prove this point and you just ignore it and disagree.

19. Daniel 7 has them coming down to sit on the throne in the earthly kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth. Before this time Jesus will be on earth with the saints for 1000 years as the overall ruler of the earth Jeremiah 30:9 and King David as Israel's personal king and at the last rebellion God the father will send fire out of heaven when the son is on earth ruling and reigning.

20. That Father has to give the Son the Kingdom first before the Son can give it back to him. The Father will give the Kingdom at the beginning of the 1000 years so the Son can reign until he has put down all rule and all authority and power for he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his fee, the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Skip down to verse 28 of 1 Corinthians 15 and it says; And when all thing shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. And that is why the at the end of the 1000 years the Son will give it back to the Father.

21. Read your bible and learn context because you live in a dream world of what the scripture really says and why.

22. In your scenario if the Father gives the kingdom over to the son it would have to be at the battle of Armageddon and it will be basically. But if he handed it right back to him then Christ will have not reigned and put down all enemies under his feet and death etc.

23. I can understand why you think this is the new heaven and the new earth and how you can explain it to be but you have to take passages out of context and their time passage.

24. The GWTJ for sinners is after the 1000 years and right before the New Heaven and the New Earth. This is why you have to put the 1000 year reign as right now with the church and even then you destroy the literalness of 1000 years because it has been over 1000 years since the Day of Pentecost and Christ has not come back in the same manner as he left in reality. That is why you have to spiritualize the 1000 years as just being God's time as in a short time. It can still be literal in our time which it is and still a short time at the same time concerning how God looks at time.

25. There is no scripture that says there is a 7th trumpet that blows when the Son turns over the kingdom to the Father and is made subject to him which is in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

26. Again, you are wrong and don't understand what you are saying lot alone comprehending anything I am saying which is what the scriptures say. Give up! Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

You are trying to make the argument that the only way for a person to be saved in the future tribulation is through the present church today to go through the tribulation.

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. .



Jerry,

You can try to ignore it in order to make your doctrine work.

However, everyone reading this forum knows that a person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church announced by Christ in Matthew chapter 16.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

.........................................................

Who is Israel? by Pastor Matt Furse


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jerry kelso said:

lastseven,

1. I hate to break it to you but Revelation 11 pertains to the tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble. This is before the 1000 year reign.

2. Revelation 19 shows the false prophet and the beast are both thrown into the lake of fire at the battle of Armageddon and then Revelation 20 shows that Satan is thrown into the bottomless pit for 1000 years and at the end of the 1000 years Satan is loosed and deceives many and God sends fire out of heaven to destroy the rebels. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the false prophet and the beast were already thrown in 1000 years before.

3. Revelation 11:17 is in the middle of the tribulation and is not fulfilled until the end of the tribulation.
There are many trumpets blown at the feast and you have to study them. For the most part verse 15, 16, 17 and part of 18 are in anticipation of what will transpire. And if you think that verse 15 refers back to 10:7 about the mystery of God you are wrong because the second coming was never a mystery of God but in Revelation 12 Satan as the accuser of the brethren is kicked out of heaven and does not have this privilege anymore after this is the mystery of God and this happens in the middle of the tribulation not the Day of the Lord or otherwise known as the second coming.

4. The 1000 years is only shown in Revelation 20 and it is after the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16. The 1000 years is also the period of the millennial kingdom and when Satan is loosed for 1000 years. Show me where it plainly says that the 7th trumpet is blown after the 1000 years in Revelation 20. There is nothing about the 1000 years in Revelation 11 and there is nothing about the 7th trumpet blowing in Revelation 20 in the passage concerning the 1000 years.

5. You are trying to piece it together and very poorly and you are wrong.
First of all, Jesus was talking about Satan when he was cast out of heaven when he revolted against God in the beginning. Read Isaiah 14:12-14.

6. There is no scripture that says Satan was cast out of heaven when he said all authority was given to him over earth and heaven. Matthew 28:18 was after Jesus talked about seeing Satan falling like lightning from heaven in Luke 10:18. You are confused.
Satan fell from heaven before man was ever created. In Job Satan was the accuser of the brethren and met with God. So yes he can still do this and will till the future. Satan being kicked out of heaven and barred from living there has no bearing on him of whether or not he can or cannot accuse the brethren before the throne. That is really weak comprehension.

7. I didn't say Jesus didn't reign for he reigns in the hearts of believers. He has authority over nature and he put kings into place of positions and so on.

8. The government of God's theocracy was prophesied in Isaiah 9:6-7 and this is about the earthly kingdom which is the KOH Jesus preached about Matthew 4:17 and the kingdom under the heavens which Daniel prophesied about being forever Daniel 7:27. It is not about the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21.

9. Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron and so will the saints. For goodness sakes read all the passages about the KOH in the Old testament and even the new testament scriptures that talk about the church ruling in the earthly kingdom.

10. On drugs? Are you kidding me? I already explained about Satan being kicked out of heaven for good and him still having access to accuse the brethren at the throne. Job showed this and that was after Satan being kicked out of heaven. You are so one track is why you can't understand anything about what would be a paradox to you.

11. So I am not all over the map but you must be in outer space like a space cadet. Lol! It also sounds a little flighty. Lol again!
Once again you are wrong and proves you cannot process anything simple lot alone complex.

12. You misunderstand and misconstrue what I said because you lack comprehension and true logic and you have tunnel vision because all you know is your point of view.

13. Your point of view about spiritual resurrection and spiritual ruling is not about just the point of being saved for all believers understand that.

14. It is more about ruling spiritually connected to the millennial kingdom now to erase the 1000 years being the millennial kingdom.

15. We are learning to rule and reign spiritually by fighting the fight of faith against the powers of darkness and learning the true law of love and our purpose and destiny in this life. It is preparation for the future kingdom of ruling and reigning. Paul said, if we suffer, we shall reign.

16. So it is you who do not understand what your real point is so how can you understand my point?

17. I already showed you that Jesus will come to the earth at the battle of Armageddon to restore the KOH Revelation 19:11-15.

18. Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7 and many other scriptures prove this point and you just ignore it and disagree.

19. Daniel 7 has them coming down to sit on the throne in the earthly kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth. Before this time Jesus will be on earth with the saints for 1000 years as the overall ruler of the earth Jeremiah 30:9 and King David as Israel's personal king and at the last rebellion God the father will send fire out of heaven when the son is on earth ruling and reigning.

20. That Father has to give the Son the Kingdom first before the Son can give it back to him. The Father will give the Kingdom at the beginning of the 1000 years so the Son can reign until he has put down all rule and all authority and power for he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his fee, the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Skip down to verse 28 of 1 Corinthians 15 and it says; And when all thing shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. And that is why the at the end of the 1000 years the Son will give it back to the Father.

21. Read your bible and learn context because you live in a dream world of what the scripture really says and why.

22. In your scenario if the Father gives the kingdom over to the son it would have to be at the battle of Armageddon and it will be basically. But if he handed it right back to him then Christ will have not reigned and put down all enemies under his feet and death etc.

23. I can understand why you think this is the new heaven and the new earth and how you can explain it to be but you have to take passages out of context and their time passage.

24. The GWTJ for sinners is after the 1000 years and right before the New Heaven and the New Earth. This is why you have to put the 1000 year reign as right now with the church and even then you destroy the literalness of 1000 years because it has been over 1000 years since the Day of Pentecost and Christ has not come back in the same manner as he left in reality. That is why you have to spiritualize the 1000 years as just being God's time as in a short time. It can still be literal in our time which it is and still a short time at the same time concerning how God looks at time.

25. There is no scripture that says there is a 7th trumpet that blows when the Son turns over the kingdom to the Father and is made subject to him which is in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

26. Again, you are wrong and don't understand what you are saying lot alone comprehending anything I am saying which is what the scriptures say. Give up! Jerry kelso

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Jerry. I think I'm starting to finally understand you. I get it now. The reason we don't see eye to eye is because you haven't been reading your Bible. And you also haven't been reading the scriptures I posted for you. Please do that and then come back.

BABerean2 said:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. .



Jerry,

You can try to ignore it in order to make your doctrine work.

However, everyone reading this forum knows that a person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church announced by Christ in Matthew chapter 16.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

.........................................................

Who is Israel? by Pastor Matt Furse


.

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baberean2,

1. I didn't say the church of believing jews and gentiles were not the vehicle God uses for this age to propagate the gospel.

2. I am saying that we are raptured to heaven before the tribulation because the church age ends and not the new covenant does not end.

3. The new covenant was offered to the jews because the old covenant was only till the seed should come who was the Messiah.

4. This means it was the Messiah who would be the covenant but not until he offered the KOH physical Matthew 4:17 and the KOG spiritual Matthew 6:33, Luke 17:20.
Because the jews rejected the Messiah Romans 11:7 says they were blinded and Verse 8 that God gave them the spirit of the slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear even unto Paul's day and even today in the reading of the old testament 2 Corinthians 3:14.

5. Through Israel's fall salvation came to the gentiles.

6. The jews missed the suffering Savior and Jesus knew that it was prophesied they would reject and kill him and his killing though meant as defeat by Satan was victory for God and the final phase of spiritual redemption for the whole world.

7. God's plan is to use the church through this age to provoke the nation of Israel.
God always has a remnant of believing jews even in Paul's day and Paul and the apostle themselves were a part of the remnant as far jews that believed and they were leaders in the church of the jew and gentiles. There is one body.

8. The church is raptured in Revelation 4:1 and that is why John showed the thing hereafter as being future from the church age.

9. The church has been going through tribulation and will until that time.

10. The time of Jacob's trouble is the last 3.5 years and concerns Israel not the church age saints.

11. There is no scripture that says the present church age saints have to be in the tribulation to provoke Israel anymore.

12. There will be those who reject Christ now that will realize the mistake they made and be saved. Many of those I am sure will have videos and books on the subject of

13. Revelation which is numerous today and for this purpose.

14. In the tribulation there will be saints such as the souls under the altar who are martyred. This is not the church age saints unless you think or say it is just part of them that are killed and others are not and even then they could not be because they were told they had to wait until the rest of their brethren were killed so this would mean that the whole church would be martyred and that would disqualify any from being alive when 1 Thessalonians of happening concerning rapture.

15. The 144,000 are not the Jehovah Witnesses or any other group but the tribulation jews in the 1st half that are missionaries and will be raptured to heaven without dying in the middle of the tribulation for they are protected through the trumpet judgements and are before the throne in Revelation 14. So they are not previous church age saints and excludes them as being raptured alive at the end of the tribulation.

16. The great multitude will be people of all nations, kindreds and tongues of believers in heaven who are clothed in white robes and are before the throne previous to the tribulation etc. They cried aloud that God was salvation by the lamb and those with white robes are the tribulation saints who were martyred which John didn't know. This will happen at the end of the tribulation.
If this is the church age saints then all of are to be martyred and that would leave out 1 Thessalonians 4 about the rapture of living saints.

17. The two witnesses are specific ministers to protect Israel and will die and then be rose again so they cannot be the church age saints for they are martyred and that would leave out 1 Thessalonians 4 about the rapture of living saints.

18. Revelation 12:11 they overcome by the blood which is the new covenant and loved not their lives to the death which means they were martyred so they cannot fulfill 1 Thessalonians 4 of living saints raptured.

19. Revelation 14:13 the blessed dead are those of Revelation 15:1-2 who sang the song of Moses and the Lamb which indicate as being jews saved by the new covenant which is the blood of the lamb. Either way whether some jews and some gentiles they are still martyred and cannot fulfill 1 Thessalonians 4 of living saints raptured.
Revelation 20:4-6 are just the tribulation saints that are martyred in the second half of the tribulation that the souls under the altar had to wait for to be killed back in Revelation 5:6 and they are the last group right before the 7 vials are poured out so they cannot be the church age saints or living saints who are raptured which will be the church age saints.
So you don't know what you are talking about men and have to build up straw men to get you scenario to be true.

20. The church age saints are not the new covenant. They are the vehicle God uses in this age to provoke the jews and not in the tribulation.
The new covenant will be known in the tribulation and propagated by new saints of the new covenant that were not a part of the church age saints.

21. Matthew 16:18 is true that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Jews who are saved are part of the church.

22. The jews of the tribulation who are martyred or raptured before the end of the tribulation as well as the gentiles who are martyred before as well will be a part of the new covenant church for they will be in time for the marriage of the lamb and the marriage supper of the lamb which they come with the rest of the saints at Armageddon.
So you can say they are new covenant believers for they have to believe in the new covenant to be saved.
This doesn't conflict with the church age saints being raptured before the tribulation.
The jewish nation has to receive the new covenant which they couldn't do until Christ died and rose again anyway.

23. If that would have happened people would have been going through Jerusalem as the head of the nations as the main vehicle under the old covenant.

24. In the kingdom they will fulfill their covenants and be the main vehicle on earth as head of the nations under the new covenant of the lamb.

25. The church is not the bride yet technically because the marriage of the lamb has not been consummated but they eventually will in the future Revelation 18:7-10. And then when we go back to heaven and come down in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:10 we will be the citizens of the Holy City the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God and not the earthly saved jews of the new covenant in earthly Mt. Zion. Does this mean we cease being new covenant believers from the church age?

26. The reason the church age saints and Israel the nation are kept separate is because of the type of gifts and callings God has designed in rulership positions for each company and not because they are separate people spiritually.

27. You are trying to tie in the church age saints as being the tribulation because that is the only way they can know about the new covenant and be saved. The bible also says that no one can be saved without a preacher etc. in the book of Acts or at least that is what some take it to mean across the board. There is a truth behind it and a reason for saying it but you would have to weaken God and say he could no longer work through a person's conscience who has never had the chance to hear a preacher.

28. Once again your logic is one track, one sided and made to be full proof within its own context but does not hold up under the scrutiny of the context of the biblical scriptures. Give up!. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

The two witnesses are specific ministers to protect Israel and will die and then be rose again so they cannot be the church age saints for they are martyred and that would leave out 1 Thessalonians 4 about the rapture of living saints.

Click to expand...

Who are the two witnesses, based on the words of Christ and Paul?

Some people say one of them is Moses. The problem is that Moses died and was buried.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

In the verse above we see John describing the two witnesses as symbols of something.
He says the two witnesses are Olive Trees and candlesticks.
However, we know they are not made of wood and metal.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jesus said the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul said the Olive Trees are a symbol of the Church made up of Israelite(cultivated) and Gentile(wild) branches grafted together?



If you want to see a rapture event, it is found in the text.
Quit ignoring it to make your doctrine work.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, blows at Revelation 11:15 and we have the judgment of the dead at Revelation 11:18.



.

LastSeven said:

Jerry. I think I'm starting to finally understand you. I get it now. The reason we don't see eye to eye is because you haven't been reading your Bible. And you also haven't been reading the scriptures I posted for you. Please do that and then come back.

Click to expand...

lastseven,

Well, I can see you have nothing to say. Anybody can disagree.
You are the one that needs to read the scriptures and I have already rebutted your scriptures.
If I missed scriptures you gave post them and I will answer them. Jerry Kelso

BABerean2 said:

Who are the two witnesses, based on the words of Christ and Paul?

Some people say one of them is Moses. The problem is that Moses died and was buried.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

In the verse above we see John describing the two witnesses as symbols of something.
He says the two witnesses are Olive Trees and candlesticks.
However, we know they are not made of wood and metal.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jesus said the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul said the Olive Trees are a symbol of the Church made up of Israelite(cultivated) and Gentile(wild) branches grafted together?



If you want to see a rapture event, it is found in the text.
Quit ignoring it to make your doctrine work.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


The 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, blows at Revelation 11:15 and we have the judgment of the dead at Revelation 11:18.



.

Click to expand...

baberean2,

The 2 witnesses were stated in Zechariah so they were always alive.
Enoch and Elijah went to heaven before Christ arose from the dead but Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection and flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven as in living permanently.
Enoch prophesied of the Day of the Lord which is recorded in Jude and Elijah is to come back before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. These two have to die and be resurrected unless they were resurrected and given glorified bodies after Christ arose.
In this case they would not be eligible to be the 2 witnesses for the 2 witnesses have to die and be resurrected.
I know about the other interpretations of Zechariah and Revelation both and some want to make them people in the future and others want to make them all jewish and some like you the jews and the gentiles of the church.
If they are the church then they will be killed and resurrected and they will not fit 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 because we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with the dead in Christ who Christ brings with him out of heaven.
The remnant are alive and they are not raptured so who is those alive and remain because the 2 witnesses die and resurrect by themselves.
You have no scripture to prove that the church age saints of today are the two witnesses. You just think you do because of the symbols of the olive tree and the candlesticks but you are contriving them and forcing them in the passages and thought of you wrong opinion and so you are wrong again so quit posting me ignorant reasoning and opinions which are not scriptural. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

The remnant are alive and they are not raptured so who is those alive and remain because the 2 witnesses die and resurrect by themselves.
You have no scripture to prove that the church age saints of today are the two witnesses. You just think you do because of the symbols of the olive tree and the candlesticks but you are contriving them and forcing them in the passages and thought of you wrong opinion and so you are wrong again so quit posting me ignorant reasoning and opinions which are not scriptural.

Click to expand...

Jerry,

If Christ is the one who said the candlesticks are the churches in Revelation 1:20, it is not me who is "contriving" anything. You are arguing with Jesus, not me.

It would be you who is denying what Christ said, to make your doctrine work.

We know from 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 that the dead are resurrected before the living are gathered to Christ.

In Revelation chapter 11 the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, blows right after the witnesses are resurrected and taken up into a cloud and then it is announced that the kingdom of this world become the kingdom of God and Christ forever, at Revelation 11:15.


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."


Then we have the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.


Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

You are denying what is plainly written in the text to make Darby's doctrine work.

You are claiming there is a rapture event at Revelation 4:1 and then you ignore the clear rapture event in Revelation chapter 11, when a voice is heard from heaven saying... "Come up here."

Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.


.

jerry kelso said:

lastseven,

Well, I can see you have nothing to say. Anybody can disagree.
You are the one that needs to read the scriptures and I have already rebutted your scriptures.
If I missed scriptures you gave post them and I will answer them. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

You call that rebutting? Let's see what you wrote in response to my point about the seventh trumpet:

jerry kelso said:

1. I hate to break it to you but Revelation 11 pertains to the tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble. This is before the 1000 year reign.

Click to expand...

That's a rebuttal? That's not are rebuttal. That's denial.

I showed you clearly that the judging of the dead begins when the seventh trumpet is blown. Now when do you think is the judging of the dead? At the start of the thousand years, or at the end of the thousand years? I asked you this before, but you never even answered the question, so I don't see how you can think you've rebutted anything.

Secondly, I showed you that God the father and Jesus the son begin their eternal reign together when the seventh trumpet is blown. Now, when do you think their eternal reign begins? At the start of the thousand years, or at the end of the thousand years? I asked you this before too, but you never answered, so again, no rebuttal.

So, assuming you'd like to try again, for easy reference, here's the scripture again. I've bolded the relevant parts for you.

The Seventh Trumpet

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

That is why it is not happening at that time in the middle of the tribulation.

BABerean2 said:

Jerry,

If Christ is the one who said the candlesticks are the churches in Revelation 1:20, it is not me who is "contriving" anything. You are arguing with Jesus, not me.

It would be you who is denying what Christ said, to make your doctrine work.

We know from 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 that the dead are resurrected before the living are gathered to Christ.

In Revelation chapter 11 the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, blows right after the witnesses are resurrected and taken up into a cloud and then it is announced that the kingdom of this world become the kingdom of God and Christ forever, at Revelation 11:15.


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."


Then we have the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.


Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

You are denying what is plainly written in the text to make Darby's doctrine work.

You are claiming there is a rapture event at Revelation 4:1 and then you ignore the clear rapture event in Revelation chapter 11, when a voice is heard from heaven saying... "Come up here."

Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.


.

Click to expand...

baberean2,

1. I didn't disagree with Christ saying that the church was represented by candlesticks in the vision of Revelation 2, but so were the jews in the old testament when there was no church in Zechariah 4.

2. I showed why Enoch and Elijah have to be the two witnesses and you can't even rebut that. That was the two olive trees and candlesticks.

3. You want to put it as the church of jews and gentiles in Revelation and it is not the context because it is only two individuals and they die and then are resurrected while their enemies watch and the remnant.

4. If that was the rapture of 1 Thessalonians the remnant should have gone up right then to meet them in the air but that didn't happen so you are wrong.

5. The trumpets of the tribulation are the wrath of the lamb Revelation 6:17-Revelation 12:18 which is in the middle of the tribulation.

6. The voice of the archangel shouts and the trump of God sounds in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There is no connection to the 7th trumpet in the tribulation of Revelation 11:15.

7. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the last trump concerning the rapture and not the second coming and is at two different times; the rapture is 7 years before the battle of Armageddon and the second coming of Christ.

8. Revelation 11:15 is an announcement of what will unfold in the time of Jacob's trouble. Those judged right before the kingdom is set up are those earthly people at the judgement of the nation and the separation of the goats and the sheep, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting hell, fire and darkness.

9. The saints are in heaven and the believers judgement happens in the middle of the tribulation.

10. Disagreeing with Darby doesn't bother me but it does you.

11. Revelation 4:1 John was told to "Come up hither" through a door to heaven and he saw the elders who represented the saints etc. and Christ was their and was the lion of Judah who was the only one who could open the sealed book of judgement concerning the tribulation of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials.

12. I didn't ignore Revelation 11 being a rapture but they were dead and resurrected and there were no living saints to meet them in the air. The remnant was watching them go up and praised God. They should have gone up with them for they were living saints according to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, but they didn't.

13. You try to make out like I disagreed with Christ about saying the church were candlesticks when that was false. You know I don't disagree with the scripture but that context is different than the two witnesses and you haven't proved it yet and really won't address it directly about Enoch and Elijah but it doesn't matter you are wrong and you know it so quit trying to make out like I am not telling the truth when it is you that don't understand simple and direct comments I make and because you don't understand proper context. Jerry kelso

LastSeven said:

You call that rebutting? Let's see what you wrote in response to my point about the seventh trumpet:

That's a rebuttal? That's not are rebuttal. That's denial.

I showed you clearly that the judging of the dead begins when the seventh trumpet is blown. Now when do you think is the judging of the dead? At the start of the thousand years, or at the end of the thousand years? I asked you this before, but you never even answered the question, so I don't see how you can think you've rebutted anything.

Secondly, I showed you that God the father and Jesus the son begin their eternal reign together when the seventh trumpet is blown. Now, when do you think their eternal reign begins? At the start of the thousand years, or at the end of the thousand years? I asked you this before too, but you never answered, so again, no rebuttal.

So, assuming you'd like to try again, for easy reference, here's the scripture again. I've bolded the relevant parts for you.

The Seventh Trumpet

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Click to expand...

lastseven,

1. The trumpets are blown in the middle of the tribulation and are a part of the wrath of the lamb.
The Wrath of God of the 7 vials are poured out after these trumpets are blown. The Wrath of God is only for the beast kingdom worshippers for the last of the dead saints and no living saints that complete the first resurrection are raptured before the 7 vials.

2. Revelation 11:15 is the announcement of what will transpire in the time of Jacob's trouble and not the fulfillment of the second coming in the middle of the tribulation for it is at the end of the tribulation.
Revelation 11:18; the timing of the dead are those in Matthew 25 which concerns the judgement of the nations and the separating of the sheep and the goats where some will inherit eternal life and others will reap eternal darkness and fiery hell. This has nothing to do with the 1000 years.

3. I already told you that the trumpets are in the middle of the tribulation. There is a difference in things being announced ahead of time before it happens. That is what prophecy is about.

4. The rewarding of the saints does happen in the days of the 7th trumpet for we are in heaven before the tribulation and the believers works judgement is in the middle of the tribulation. The timing of the dead and the kingdoms of the world being Christ doesn't happen in the middle of the tribulation and cannot for they are in the last of the tribulation after the 7 vials and the 7 vials are not poured out until the 7 trumpets and their judgements are completely through.

5. So your thought process is that because Revelation 11:15 announces the event of the second coming you think that the 7th trumpet signals the end of the tribulation. Sorry, it is not true. This is why you show that you don't understand proper context and how to properly put the scriptures together.

6. The vials are last of the judgements and not the 7 trumpets. The seals and trumpet and vials do not run alongside each other. You have to build up straw men and piece things like a puzzle according to your wrong logic and wrong hermeneutics.

7. The seals, trumpets, and vials are consecutive and the parenthetical passages are within the context such as the 144,000 are chosen between the 6th and the 7 seal. The great multitude are martyrs that are mention at the same time as the 144,000 but are not fulfilled till the end of the tribulation. The same goes with the 7th trumpet blowing and the announcement of the angels pertaining to the second coming at that time but is not fulfilled till the end of the tribulation. Why? Because the trumpets are in the middle of the tribulation and not at the end of the tribulation.

8. So I have rebutted your position but you probably won't change because you just want your wrong hermeneutics and wrong exegesis and your wrong human reasoning which keep you in your world of tunnel vision that you cannot and will not ever see the truth. Jerry kelso

lol. Jerry, you crack me up. It's amazing how you continue to dodge the questions. I asked you about the timing of the trumpet in relation to the thousand years, and you respond with telling me what you think is the timing of the trumpets in relation to the tribulation.

I don't care about "the tribulation". I didn't say anything about the timing of the trumpets in regards to the tribulation. That's a completely different subject. I'm asking you if the description of the seventh trumpet indicates a time at the beginning of the thousand years, or at the end. Notice, I'm asking about the thousand years, not the tribulation.

Please answer this simple question and if you still think the trumpet is blown at the beginning then you need to explain why the judging of the dead is at the beginning. Do you think there are two judgments? And then tell me how God the father and Jesus the son can begin their eternal reign together at the beginning of a thousand year reign. Do the two reigns overlap?

I don't think the question is all that complicated, so please explain.

jerry kelso said:

I showed why Enoch and Elijah have to be the two witnesses and you can't even rebut that. That was the two olive trees and candlesticks.

Click to expand...

OK.

So we are supposed to reject what Jesus and Paul said in the New Testament and accept your interpretation from the Old Testament.

Mat 17:10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"

Mat 17:11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.

Mat 17:12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."



You are like those who think they know who the New Testament Elijah is by using Darby's understanding of the Old Testament, but you reject the words of Christ who tells us plainly who Elijah was in the New Testament.


Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

I will go with the words of Jesus rather than Darby or you.

.

LastSeven said:

lol. Jerry, you crack me up. It's amazing how you continue to dodge the questions. I asked you about the timing of the trumpet in relation to the thousand years, and you respond with telling me what you think is the timing of the trumpets in relation to the tribulation.

I don't care about "the tribulation". I didn't say anything about the timing of the trumpets in regards to the tribulation. That's a completely different subject. I'm asking you if the description of the seventh trumpet indicates a time at the beginning of the thousand years, or at the end. Notice, I'm asking about the thousand years, not the tribulation.

Please answer this simple question and if you still think the trumpet is blown at the beginning then you need to explain why the judging of the dead is at the beginning. Do you think there are two judgments? And then tell me how God the father and Jesus the son can begin their eternal reign together at the beginning of a thousand year reign. Do the two reigns overlap?

I don't think the question is all that complicated, so please explain.

Click to expand...

lastseven,

1. lol. I told you the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 has nothing to do with the thousand years.

2. The seventh trumpet is blown in the middle of the tribulation.

3. The kingdoms of the world being Christ is announced at this time but it is not fulfilled till the end of the tribulation.

4. The timing of the dead is found in Matthew 25 as the separating of the sheeps and goats.
This is at the beginning of the 1000 year reign but will not be judged after the 1000 years at the GWTJ. Why? Because all the sinners will be judged at one time which is at the GWTJ.

5. Announcement and fulfillment are two different timings.

6. There are two judgements; the Believers Works Judgements in the middle of the tribulation. This is the Bema seat and is rewards for the saints. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15; Revelation 11:15 rewards of the saints in both accounts.
The GWTJ is at the end of the 1000 year millennial reign which is after the tribulation.
Revelation 20:5; 20:11-15. Jerry Kelso

BABerean2 said:

OK.

So we are supposed to reject what Jesus and Paul said in the New Testament and accept your interpretation from the Old Testament.

Mat 17:10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?"

Mat 17:11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.

Mat 17:12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."



You are like those who think they know who the New Testament Elijah is by using Darby's understanding of the Old Testament, but you reject the words of Christ who tells us plainly who Elijah was in the New Testament.


Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

I will go with the words of Jesus rather than Darby or you.

.

Click to expand...

baberean2,

1. I didn't deny what Jesus said about Elijah.
Matthew 17:10; And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
This was a well known truth.

2. Verse 11; And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. This is the truth of the real Elias in Malachi 4:5; Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
This whole passage is about the Day of the Lord.

3. Verse 12; But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise, shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

4. Verse 13; Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

5. . John the Baptist was not Elijah and he told the jews that.

6. Jesus knew he was not Elijah and John the Baptist was not and will not be right before the coming of the Day of the Lord and his mission had to do with turning the hearts of the father to the children in that day in the Spirit of Elijah.

7. Malachi 4:6; And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

8. Luke 1:17; And he shall go before him in the SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIAS to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just: to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

9. John the Baptist was not Elijah and came in the Spirit and Power of the real Elias who would come before the great and dreadful day.

10. John the Baptist didn't not totally turn the hearts because Israel rejected Jesus and there was no curse on the earth.

11. In the tribulation the real Elijah will restore all things and there will not be a curse on the earth for Christ will conquer the enemy at Armageddon and set up the kingdom.

12. Read all the contexts on the subject and quit making what you read as just one context and no other. This clearly shows that you do not rightly divide the word correctly.

13. Jesus plainly said that Elijah shall first come and restore all things. However, you are so fixated on Elijah has already come that it goes right over your head.

14. Once again you are wrong and I am sure Darby even knew the truth on this.
Because you refuse to believe this you stay in your tunnel vision and accuse me of just giving my opinion which is not true, it is of correct context which you don't understand. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

Jesus plainly said that Elijah shall first come and restore all things. However, you are so fixated on Elijah has already come that it goes right over your head.

Click to expand...

Based on what you have said, it must have gone over Albert Barnes head also in his commentary below.

Matthew 17:10-13

See also Mar_9:11-13.
Why then say the scribes ... - The disciples appear to have been satisfied now that he was the Messiah. The transfiguration had taken away all their doubts, but they recollected that it was a common doctrine among the Jews that Elijah would appear before the Messiah came, and they did not then recollect that he had appeared. To this difficulty the word then refers. "We are satisfied that thou art the Christ, but Elijah has not yet come, as was expected; what, then, is the meaning of the common opinions of our learned men, the scribes? Were they right or wrong in their expectation of Elijah?" See the notes at Mat_11:14.
Mat_17:11
Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things - He did not mean by this that Elijah was yet to come, for he tells them immediately Mat_17:12 that he had come; but he meant to affirm that it was a true doctrine which the scribes taught, that Elijah would appear before the coming of the Messiah. To "restore" means to put into the former situation. See Mat_12:13. Hence, it means to heal, to correct, to put in proper order. Here it means that Elijah would put things in a proper state; he would be the instrument of reforming the people, or of restoring them, in some measure, to proper notions about the Messiah and preparing them for his coming. Before the coming of John their views were erroneous, their expectations were worldly, and their conduct were exceedingly depraved. He corrected many of their notions about the Messiah (see Matt. 3), and he was the instrument of an extensive reformation, and thus restored them, in some degree, to correct views of their own system and of the Messiah, and to a preparation for his advent.
Mat_17:12
Elias is come already - That is, John the Baptist has come, in the spirit and power of Elias. See Luk_1:17.
They have done unto him whatsoever they listed - The word "list" is an old English word, signifying to choose, to desire, to be inclined. See Jdg_3:8. It means, here, that they had done to John as they pleased; that is, they had put him to death, Mat_14:10.
Mark adds Mar_9:12 that Jesus told them that it was "written of the Son of man that he must suffer many things, and be set at naught." This was written of him particularly in Isa_53:1-12. To be set at naught is to be esteemed as worthless or as nothing; to be cast out and despised. No prophecy was ever more strikingly fulfilled. See Luk_23:11, Luk_23:14-21. This narrative, with some additions, is found in Mark 9:14-29, and Luk_9:37-43.

.....................................
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luk 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

.

jerry kelso said:

lastseven,
3. The kingdoms of the world being Christ is announced at this time but it is not fulfilled till the end of the tribulation.

Click to expand...

So let me get this straight. Even though Revelation 12 says
"The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah", you're saying "not yet!".

jerry kelso said:

6. There are two judgments; the Believers Works Judgements in the middle of the tribulation. This is the Bema seat and is rewards for the saints. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15; Revelation 11:15 rewards of the saints in both accounts.
The GWTJ is at the end of the 1000 year millennial reign which is after the tribulation.
Revelation 20:5; 20:11-15. Jerry Kelso

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Two judgments? Based on what? I mean obviously the judgment is mentioned twice in Revelation, but is that the only reason you think there are two judgments, or is there some other place in scripture that tells us there are two judgments? Cause I'm sure I don't need to tell you, just because something is mentioned twice doesn't mean it happens twice. It just means it's mentioned twice.

BABerean2 said:

Based on what you have said, it must have gone over Albert Barnes head also in his commentary below.

Matthew 17:10-13

See also Mar_9:11-13.
Why then say the scribes ... - The disciples appear to have been satisfied now that he was the Messiah. The transfiguration had taken away all their doubts, but they recollected that it was a common doctrine among the Jews that Elijah would appear before the Messiah came, and they did not then recollect that he had appeared. To this difficulty the word then refers. "We are satisfied that thou art the Christ, but Elijah has not yet come, as was expected; what, then, is the meaning of the common opinions of our learned men, the scribes? Were they right or wrong in their expectation of Elijah?" See the notes at Mat_11:14.
Mat_17:11
Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things - He did not mean by this that Elijah was yet to come, for he tells them immediately Mat_17:12 that he had come; but he meant to affirm that it was a true doctrine which the scribes taught, that Elijah would appear before the coming of the Messiah. To "restore" means to put into the former situation. See Mat_12:13. Hence, it means to heal, to correct, to put in proper order. Here it means that Elijah would put things in a proper state; he would be the instrument of reforming the people, or of restoring them, in some measure, to proper notions about the Messiah and preparing them for his coming. Before the coming of John their views were erroneous, their expectations were worldly, and their conduct were exceedingly depraved. He corrected many of their notions about the Messiah (see Matt. 3), and he was the instrument of an extensive reformation, and thus restored them, in some degree, to correct views of their own system and of the Messiah, and to a preparation for his advent.
Mat_17:12
Elias is come already - That is, John the Baptist has come, in the spirit and power of Elias. See Luk_1:17.
They have done unto him whatsoever they listed - The word "list" is an old English word, signifying to choose, to desire, to be inclined. See Jdg_3:8. It means, here, that they had done to John as they pleased; that is, they had put him to death, Mat_14:10.
Mark adds Mar_9:12 that Jesus told them that it was "written of the Son of man that he must suffer many things, and be set at naught." This was written of him particularly in Isa_53:1-12. To be set at naught is to be esteemed as worthless or as nothing; to be cast out and despised. No prophecy was ever more strikingly fulfilled. See Luk_23:11, Luk_23:14-21. This narrative, with some additions, is found in Mark 9:14-29, and Luk_9:37-43.

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Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luk 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

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baberean2,

1. Barnes is not wrong about what John the Baptist was as the forerunner for his time and too the KOH was being preached by John the Baptist to prepare the way for the lamb to take away sins for the world.
I agree and did agree.
But the disciples didn't know that the jews were going to reject him and the KOH would be postponed. So Jesus was getting them to understand the time of the KOH was at hand Matthew 4:17 and they were looking for the KOH.

2. This doesn't mean that the promise of Elijah the prophet would not come before the great and dreadful day. They thought the Day of the Lord would come then in Christ ministry.

4. The fact is that the KOH was postponed because of the Jews disobedience to enter the covenant and so the spiritual KOG according to receiving salvation was given to the gentiles and the church was born.

5. The fact is that the KOH will happen and Elijah the prophet will be one of the two witnesses.

6. You are so one track it is pathetic.

7. You say because Jesus said it. Well, he did say it but don't leave the other part out that he said just because the disciples didn't understand it.

8. The disciples didn't understand about the mystery of the church until 8-10 years later thought the mystery of the church happened at Calvary 8-10 before.

9. You know nothing about gradual revelation or how people must have thought or could have been confused etc. We have all the facts about what was going on but you refuse to face the truth and you have to go down all the rabbit holes because you don't want to believe the truth.

10. Jesus didn't preach the death, burial and resurrection during the KOH and the KOG message and it wasn't until after the jews rejected him that he even mentioned it and his own disciples didn't understand it.

11. Even when Jesus mentioned about building the church on Peter who was the rock etc. and Peter was used of Satan to thwart the plan of God of the death, burial and resurrection. They didn't even know what that was at that time. They even had some doubts of sorts after the resurrection.

11. So, are you offended because I said Jesus didn't preach the death, burial, and resurrection of what we are to base our salvation on in the churches context?
You can believe it only means what Jesus said to the disciples only in Elijah being John the Baptist and not believe that he was still talking about Elijah the prophet at the end of days. Luke 1:17 says it plainer that John the Baptist was in the Spirit of Elijah. So both scripture read that was for a specific reason and Jesus reason was to get them to recognize he was the Messiah and John the Baptist position was to manifest the Messiah to them John 1:31. Read your bible and get a clue. Jerry kelso