Escaping the Great Tribulation?

Endtime Survivors · Aug 16, 2016

Postvieww said:
You are inserting Jesus into this text without any justification other than saying He has all power. Makes no sense in the context of this passage. You arbitrarily insert Jesus’s name into a "what" and a "he' and the body of Christ into the other he, because it fits your narrative. You are going to have to acknowledge Jesus is taken out of the way which sounds ridiculous or the church is removed to allow the man of sin to be revealed which cannot be the case because Paul said the falling away and man of sin being revealed would come first. Please address this point.

What a satisfying paragraph to read. Well stated.

Straightshot · Aug 16, 2016

My comment

The Biblical view is not hard to understand at all, but this subject has been a raging controversy for a long time

It is actually cosmic in substance .... a battle between the Lord and Satan over human destiny

The Lord will make good on His promise [Revelation 3:10] .... then He will bring His tribulation [Revelation 6:12-17], those who turn to Him in the tribulation will be saved, and He will also deal with His adversary in the process [Revelation 12:12] and put the devil away for 1000 years [Revelation 20:1-3]

Once the Lord calls for His true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living just before His coming wrath upon an entire world of unbelief [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 18:4] .... there will be no believer left upon the earth .... not one

However, the Lord will not withdraw His offer of salvation and particularly related to His nation of Israel .... the first believers of the tribulation period will be of Israel [Revelation 6:2; 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

These will then spread the Gospel of His coming millennial kingdom [Micah 4:1-3; Matthew 24:14; Revelation 14:1-7; 20:4-6] .... both to Israel, and to the Gentiles of the nations, and some of each will become believers, most will be martyred [Revelation 6:9-11], and a few will survive the wiles of the tribulation as mortals

He will deal with the mortal survivors and separate them, believing from unbelieving .... His intent will be to re-populate the earth in the aftermath of His judgment [similar to the flood] .... the believing will enter the kingdom .... those found unbelieving will not [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

Douggg · Aug 16, 2016

Postvieww said:
Since we now agree the topic is the gathering in verse one, we should have no problem agreeing that that gathering will not take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed just as Paul said in verse 3.

In verse 3, Paul is talking about the day of Christ shall not come until there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. The gathering is not mentioned in verse 3. The day of Christ is not our day. The day of Christ is the day of the Lord.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

True Michael does not have “all power” but he has all the power he needs to do whatever task given him. Your point does not negate the possibility Michael is the one referred to nor does it prove Jesus is the one referred to. Paul had no problem referring to Jesus by name; it is highly unlikely he would be cryptic about his Lord in this passage, or refer to Jesus as a “what” verse 6.

I have stated previously I cannot prove certain Michael is the one, but I have offered evidence and a logical argument from scripture it is a possibility.

But Michael has never been assigned to allow the mystery of iniquity to be at work in Paul's day and to continue to present. Michael does not have sovereign authority over such matters. To me, it is irrational to think that Michael is controlling the course of mankind that someday Michael is going to allow the man of sin to be revealed in his time.

Straightshot · Aug 16, 2016

Agreed Doug

The gathering of the Lord's pre-tribulation call is just before the coming day of the Lord including the revealing of Satan's lawless one [2 Thessalonians 2:1-12]

And it He will will stand aside and allow His adversary the devil to rant during the period .... only the Lord's has the jurisdiction .... Michael the archangel is subservient to Him and is assigned to Israel [Daniel 12:1]

Douggg · Aug 16, 2016

Postvieww said:
You are inserting Jesus into this text without any justification other than saying He has all power. Makes no sense in the context of this passage.

Other than Jesus has all power in heaven and in the earth - is a small consideration? No it is everything. Totally.

If Jesus is not totally in control - then we have not hope.

You arbitrarily insert Jesus’s name into a "what" and a "he' and the body of Christ into the other he, because it fits your narrative.

It is not arbitrary. It is Jesus who is in charge. Don't you get that?

You are going to have to acknowledge Jesus is taken out of the way which sounds ridiculous or the church is removed to allow the man of sin to be revealed which cannot be the case because Paul said the falling away and man of sin being revealed would come first. Please address this point.

I have been clear that it is not literally Jesus taken out of the way, but his body - Christians. Removed, from all the trouble that is going to take place here on the earth.

The mystery of inequity that has been going on for the past 2000 years because Jesus is allowing it, will continue, until the body of Christ is taken out of the way, raptured, Then Jesus is going to allow the man of sin go into the temple and claim to be God. Which following that action is the day of Christ, the day of the Lord. Contained within that timeframe is the great tribulation.

Straightshot · Aug 16, 2016

My comment

The Lord Himself is the inclusive restrainer against evil

His true ecclesia are never referred to as "He"

It is true that He does reside in the individual believer, However, when His true ecclesia are made immortal, His spirit always remains engaged with the earth [and His universe] at the same time .... He is very complex being and something not well understood by a man [Genesis 1:2; Revelation 5:5-6]

He is the Lord [John 1:1-14; 14:8-9]

Postvieww · Aug 16, 2016

Douggg said:
In verse 3, Paul is talking about the day of Christ shall not come until there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. The gathering is not mentioned in verse 3. The day of Christ is not our day. The day of Christ is the day of the Lord.

The day of Christ, Day of the Lord is our day it is the day of our gathering it is the day of rejoicing.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It is the coming of our Lord Jesus. It is the day we are blameless.

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no separating the day of the Lord , from his coming, or our gathering it is one and the same day.

Straightshot · Aug 16, 2016

My comments;

The coming "day of the Lord" [day of Jesus Christ] will involve His unprecedented judgment upon an unbelieving world of humanity which will last for 2550 days .... and after those days He will appear upon the earth and gather the mortal survivors and separate them sheep and goat .... the believing sheep will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... the unbelieving goats will be rejected

This gathering is not a resurrection of anyone as the post-tribulation thinkers teach ... if it was then there would be no mortal sheep to populate His millennial kingdom .... but there will be

This gathering is a transformation [resurrection] of the dead in Christ and those living at the time ..... but just before the day of the Lord's judgment begins .... His choice

Post-tribulation thinking is a ruse and those that believe it will experience it if alive at the time .... no doubt

There will be no resurrection for them after the days of the tribulation as they think

The gatherings at the time will be of the mortal survivors of the tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31] for Israel ..... [Matthew 25:31-46] for the Gentiles of the nations

Those of the tribulation who turn to the Lord during the period and are martyred will be resurrected just at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 20:4]

The "day of the Lord" as described in scripture:

The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used nineteen times in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5,30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5) and five times in the New Testament (Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages (Revelation 6:17; 16:14).

The Old Testament passages dealing with the day of the Lord often convey a sense of imminence, nearness, and expectation: “Wail, for the day of the Lord is near!” (Isaiah 13:6); “For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near” (Ezekiel 30:3); “Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand” (Joel 2:1); “Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!

For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision” (Joel 3:14); “Be silent before the Lord God! For the day of the Lord is near” (Zephaniah 1:7). This is because the Old Testament passages referring to the day of the Lord often speak of both a near and a far fulfillment, as does much of Old Testament prophecy.

Some Old Testament passages that refer to the day of the Lord describe historical judgments that have already been fulfilled in some sense (Isaiah 13:6-22; Ezekiel 30:2-19; Joel 1:15, 3:14; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 1:14-18), while others refers to divine judgments that will take place toward the end of the age (Joel 2:30-32; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:1, 5).

The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22;Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14). The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment.

Douggg · Aug 16, 2016

Postvieww said:
The day of Christ, Day of the Lord is our day it is the day of our gathering it is the day of rejoicing.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It is the coming of our Lord Jesus. It is the day we are blameless.

And where is the body of Christ during the day of the Lord to be rejoicing? In heaven, taken out of the world.

Read Revelation 12.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This is the order (after the body of Christ has been removed from the earth, raptured):

1. The man of sin commits the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - the transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:13) .
2. The day of the Lord begins.
3. God has the person killed for his audacious act (Ezekiel 28:1-10)
4. The person finds himself in hell, mocked (Isaiah 14)
5. God, in disdain for the person cast him out of the grave, because he betrays his land, and his people - he is a Jew (Isaiah 14:19-20)
6. The person comes back to life as the beast.
7. The false prophet has the image made of the beast, the abomination of desolation, set up on day 1185, Daniel 12:11-12
8. The great tribulation begins.
9. The Jews fee to the mountains, as the two witnesses call plagues upon the earth.
10. The beast makes war on them, kills them, ending their 1260 day testimony.
11. 3 1/2 days later the two witnesses ascend to heaven.
12. Then the war in heaven (the second heaven) takes place and Satan is cast down, a time, times, half times left in the 7 years.
13. Woes to the inhabitants of the earth!!!! But the body of Christ is not here then and is in heaven rejoicing for the accuser is cast down.

Straightshot · Aug 16, 2016

"12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Truth Doug

Today's immortal ecclesia will be there in heaven .... and then the devil will be allowed to rant upon the earth [2 Thessalonians 2:1 ......... 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Connecting the dots .... the Lord's more sure word of prophecy cannot be broken

Endtime Survivors · Aug 18, 2016

Douggg said:
The name Jesus is not directly used in that particular verse. The word "he", everytime it is used in a sentence in the bible is not referring to Jesus.

Which is why I suggested that your conclusion comes across as forced.

Douggg said:
There is not a post trib rapture, provable because the Jews in Jerusalem escape through a split in the Mt. of Olives, not raptured. And to begin the messianic age, the gathering of the elect, is not a rapture. It is the gathering of the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel for the messianic age.

Again, there are several conclusions here which come across as forced. Both Paul and Jesus talk about Jesus' return with the sound of a trumpet. In particular, Paul talks about the "last" trumpet and Jesus says, "immediately after the tribulation of those days", a tribulation which he says the world has never seen nor will see again. Clearly he's talking about the Great Tribulation. The fact that both of them mention a trumpet suggest that these trumpets are the 7 trumpets of the triblation, which makes the most sense in the context.

Otherwise, you need to come up with some other explanation for a series of trumpets relating to end time prophecy (which are not the 7 trumpets of the tribulation). I've heard people claim both Paul and Jesus were referring to OT traditions where armies would blow trumpets to signal moving forward or invasion etc, but, again, those sound like explanations attempting to force a particular conclusion. Jesus conncect his trumpet to the Great Tribulation and Paul talks about a "last" trumpet, meaning he's talking about a series of trumpets which relate to one another and not some random trumpet blast from the OT.

You say the "elect" are the flesh Jews, but I don't see Jesus saying that kind of thing. I see him telling the Jews, "If you were the Children of Abraham then you would do the works of Abraham. You are not the children of Abraham but rather the children of Satan because you're trying to kill me". John the baptist told the Jews, "Don't tell me that you are the children of Abraham as though that somehow makes you special. God would make these rocks into the children of Abraham if all he wanted was correct DNA".

Paul later says, "The promises to Abraham (the father of the nation of Israel) were fulfilled in Jesus". Jesus was the fulfillment of the Nation of Israel as God intended it, and the flesh Jews rejected him. The nation of Israel was, from the very beginning, a spiritual concept about loyalty to God. The true nation of Israel is, as the Revelation puts it, those who "follow the lamb withersoever he goeth". That's how the 144k are described. Sure, the description uses the names of 12 tribes, but the Jews are only one out of the twelve (the tribe of Judah). Will god resurrect the lost DNA? Is that what Jesus came to teach?

No, that's making the same mistake as the pharisees when Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days". The 144k will not be defined by physical criteria. That's how humans judged. God tried it that way with the Israelites for thousands of years and it just didn't work. The final nail in the coffin for that system was them killing their own messiah. The veil in the Holy of Holies was torn in two by God himself and the nation of Israel as "God's people" was finished.

Whatever promises you think God still owes to the flesh Jews of the world today are almost certainly a misunderstanding of the meaning behind the promises.

Douggg said:
Paul speaks about the rapture (implied) being at the last trump in that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye. And that at the rapture, in 1thessalonians4 there will be a trump, the voice of the archangel.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It sounds like it's just a rephrasing of the basic concept of rapture in general, whereas the context of this thread is that the rapture (or return of Jesus) will be immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the sounding of the last trumpet of the tribulation.

Douggg said:
The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews back to Israel, from the nations, to begin the messianic age. It is not the rapture; no one is being translated into incorruptible bodies.

Ok so both Paul and Jesus talk about his return at the sound of a trumpet. In Jesus' version the angels gather the elect. In Paul's version the saints are gathered.

Except, in Jesus' version he doesn't use the same exact phrasing as Paul, in that he does say "your bodies will be changed". And on that basis you're saying they are two different events? I've always found this to be one of the most frustrating parts of dealing with pre-tribbers; their theory has all these holes in it. One of these miraculous "gathering togethers" is for the Jews while the other (i,e Paul's version) isn't for the Jews? Becuase Paul talks about bodies changing whereas Jesus doesn't, so then we're back to the idea that there ARE two raptures, unless you're saying that the gathering mentioned by Jesus isn't miraculous in that it's just a bunch of flesh jews running through a rocky passage to become the messianic leaders of the world?

Nah, that's not what Jesus describes at all. He talks about the sun being darkened, lightening flashing across the sky and people seeing him in the air as his followers are being gathered to him.

Douggg said:

But if you are saying it is the rapture, then everyone would know almost to the exact day, 7 years from the confirming of the covenant, when the rapture will occur. So it is not a fit from that respect either of being the raptue.

Click to expand...

The key phrase here is "from the confirming of the covenant". Yeah, from the fulfilling of a certain prophetic event we will gain more accurate information about the timing of other events. Although Jesus said "no one knows the day nor hour" he did not say it would always be that way. That's the purpose of prophecy; to give us advance warning and information. If we close our eyes and say, "no, we can never know" then what's the point of studying prophecy at all?

From the agreement to rebuild the temple there will be "one week" (or 7 years) of history remaining. 3.5 years into that period, the Great Tribulation will start. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the last trumpet, Jesus will return for his followers.

Douggg · Aug 18, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
One of these miraculous "gathering togethers" is for the Jews while the other (i,e Paul's version) isn't for the Jews?

The rapture is for Christians. Of the flesh, they may either Jews or Gentiles. There is only one rapture. You are playing word games with the term "gathering". The term gathering does not equate to the term rapture.

The gathering of the Jews from the nations in Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture. Deuteronomy 30:3-5

From the agreement to rebuild the temple there will be "one week" (or 7 years) of history remaining. 3.5 years into that period, the Great Tribulation will start. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, at the last trumpet, Jesus will return for his followers.

Before or after the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire?

Postvieww · Aug 18, 2016

Doug said post # 572:

The rapture is for Christians. Of the flesh, they may either Jews or Gentiles. There is only one rapture. You are playing word games with the term "gathering". The term gathering does not equate to the term rapture.

The gathering of the Jews from the nations in Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture.

Doug Post #550 The topic of the gathering unto Jesus, of the chapter, which is the rapture, taken. Taken out of the way.

You are now contradicting yourself. It appears “gathering” can mean whatever you need it to mean.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matthew 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These two events are absolutely the same event.

There is one return of Christ yet future.

There is one resurrection of the righteous dead yet future.

Jesus said the resurrection was at the last day. John 6:39, 40, 44 & 54

Daniel said the resurrection was at the “time of trouble” not before. Daniel 12:1-2

Paul said the resurrection was at His coming at the end. Not 7 years or 3 ½ years before. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

Job said his resurrection would be at the “latter day” when his redeemer would stand upon the earth. Job 19:25-26

The phrase resurrection is always used never resurrections.

The phrase coming of the Lord is always used never comings of the Lord.

Pretrib doctrine can only be arrived at through the type of hermeneutics pointed out at the beginning of this post.

There is one last trumpet.

From scripture no resurrected, changed to their immortal bodies saints can be shone to be in heaven anywhere in scripture. That is only an assumption by pretribbers. Those groups listed in heaven are just like those listed in Rev 6:9 “the souls”.

There is no clear statement anywhere in scripture that the resurrection is before the tribulation. It is only surmised that is the case by jumping from scripture to scripture and using tactics such as, if this is true then this must be true and so on and so on.

Pretrib doctrine is false and cannot be found anywhere in scripture without manipulating the text of multiple passages to say what they do not say.

2 Thessalonians 2 is clear the gathering at His coming is the rapture, resurrection, which is after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

If anyone can disprove this by the clear wording of the text of scripture please do so. If you have special insight because you are more spiritual, think you study more than anyone else or you understanding is more complete, save it.

Any major doctrine we hold to can stand the scrutiny of scripture and the clear wording of the text.

Anyone who sticks to the clear wording of the text of scripture can come to no other conclusion than the resurrection is at the end.

That is my comment.

Postvieww · Aug 18, 2016

Douggg said:
And where is the body of Christ during the day of the Lord to be rejoicing? In heaven, taken out of the world.

Read Revelation 12.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This is the order (after the body of Christ has been removed from the earth, raptured):

Doug said:
And where is the body of Christ during the day of the Lord to be rejoicing? In heaven, taken out of the world.

Found nowhere in the text of scripture. Only an assumption, not backed by any scripture.

Read Revelation 12.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Who could be rejoicing in heaven?

1. 24 elders and 4 beasts,thousands of angels and every creature which is heaven. Rev 5:8-14 Rev 7:9-12

2. Souls of a great multitude Revelation 7:9-15

There is a lot of rejoicing in heaven but none of it is from resurrected saints.

This is the order (after the body of Christ has been removed from the earth, raptured):

The body of Christ is not removed from earth and taken to heaven. No scripture says that. When He comes we rule and reign with Him on this earth. Revelation 5:10 Revelation 20:6, Revelation 22:5, 2 Timothy 2:12,

Douggg · Aug 18, 2016

Postvieww said:
The rapture is for Christians. Of the flesh, they may either Jews or Gentiles. There is only one rapture. You are playing word games with the term "gathering". The term gathering does not equate to the term rapture.

The gathering of the Jews from the nations in Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture.

Doug Post #550 The topic of the gathering unto Jesus, of the chapter, which is the rapture, taken. Taken out of the way.

You are now contradicting yourself. It appears “gathering” can mean whatever you need it to mean.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matthew 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These two events are absolutely the same event.

The event in Matthew 24:31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:3-5. It is not the rapture.

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Douggg · Aug 18, 2016

Postvieww said:
The rapture is for Christians. Of the flesh, they may either Jews or Gentiles. There is only one rapture. You are playing word games with the term "gathering". The term gathering does not equate to the term rapture.

The gathering of the Jews from the nations in Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture.

Doug Post #550 The topic of the gathering unto Jesus, of the chapter, which is the rapture, taken. Taken out of the way.

You are now contradicting yourself. It appears “gathering” can mean whatever you need it to mean.

"gathering" does not mean rapture everytime it is used in the bible.

Riberra · Aug 18, 2016

Douggg said:
"gathering" does not mean rapture everytime it is used in the bible.

The gathering by the angels in Matthew 24:31 imply a caught up in the air (rapture) to gather the elect to where Jesus will be /ie in the air over Jerusalem/.Paul and Matthew's gathering is the same that will happen unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory.The last trump/the trump of God* is the voice of Jesus sending his angels to gather His elects ie the resurrected saints and the saints sill alive and remain unto the coming of Jesus.
*That is not the 7th trumpet of Revelation sounded by the 7th angel.

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Postvieww · Aug 18, 2016

Douggg said:
"gathering" does not mean rapture everytime it is used in the bible.

Agreed, but we are only discussing 2 of the mentions and they are the same gathering, according to Jesus, Daniel , Job and Paul.. There is only one resurrection, gathering, catching up , rapture and it is at the end, after the tribulation.

Straightshot · Aug 18, 2016

If the "rapture" occurs at the end of the tribulation there will be no mortal believers left to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth .... but there will be [Ezekiel 36:10-38; Zechariah 14:16-21; Revelation 20:3]

Immortals cannot be deceived by Satan .... only mortals

Douggg · Aug 18, 2016

Riberra said:
The gathering by the angels in Matthew 24:31 imply a caught up in the air (rapture) to gather the elect to where Jesus will be /ie in the air over Jerusalem/.Paul and Matthew's gathering is the same that will happen unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory.The last trump/the trump of God* is the voice of Jesus sending his angels to gather His elects ie the resurrected saints and the saints sill alive and remain unto the coming of Jesus.
*That is not the 7th trumpet of Revelation sounded by the 7th angel.

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ribera, the Jews who are rescued in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14 escape through a valley created when the Mt. of Olives splits in half? In the text, it says because the Lord foot touches down on the Mt. of Olives.

So why are those Jews who will be Christians at the time, not caught up in the air over Jerusalem - like everyone else in the post trib rapture?

Zechariah 14
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints coming with Jesus on that day will be the bride of Christ, that accompanies Jesus in His Return to earth. The rapture will have ocured already years before. That's why the Jews in Zechariah 14:5 escape through a valley, not raptured.

Escaping the Great Tribulation?

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Believer

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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