Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

Original Happy Camper said:

Give me precept upon precept, line upon line from the Bible to support this believe of yours. Convince me

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So, unless I missed it you never responded to my post, way back on page 6. You asked me to show you how the Bible supports my assertion that there is only one physical resurrection and I laid it out nicely for you. Are you still considering it, or do you have a response for me?

jerry kelso said:

7. So send your copy and I will respond truthfully. Jerry kelso

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Here's a link to the document on OneDrive: https://1drv.ms/w/s!ApIFGppMjzfXnZUabqkD9EEALZ1DvA

I actually compiled it as a response to a request by Happy Camper above, but he never acknowledged it. Maybe you will.

BABerean2 said:

Then give your perspective of the following.

1. Is this about the New Heavens and the New Earth or is it the millennium?

2. How do you get a time of no crying to coincide with a time of death?

3. Do you think the last verse in the chapter indicates a removal of the curse?

4. Do you think the commentary of Albert Barnes agrees with my viewpoint?


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1. New heavens and new earth, as it's describing the conditions of the verse 17 creation.

2. I get it to coincide because verse 19 says no crying and verse 20 mentions death. It's not that hard, the thoughts are right next to each other. I think it's more of a question where you assume the they can't coincide with each other other than within your personal assumptions. It seems to be a personal ideal imposed on the revelation of the text. Just because we cry now when people die, doesn't mean we will then. I think it's safe to say we will have a much different outlook on death at that point, and on the justice of God.

3. That's irrelevant to the point.

4. I don't care if he agreed with either you, me, or anyone else.

jerry kelso said:

Isaiah 65:17 is not about the New Heaven and the New Earth of Revelation 21

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Jerry,

How many New Heavens and New Earths do you think there will be?

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SeventyOne said:

That's irrelevant to the point.

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The removal of the curse has to be relevant to people dying.

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BABerean2 said:

Jerry,

How many New Heavens and New Earths do you think there will be?

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baberean2,

1. There will be the first renovation on the Day of the Lord which is the millennial kingdom of 1000 years.
This will be a renovation of nature and there will be no more wars, disease, etc.
There will be earthly people who will not know God and there will be jewish missionaries to propagate the gospel and some will get saved and others will not.
Some sinners will sin a death penalty sin and be cut off immediately and swiftly. Other sinners will obey the laws of the land for God always has laws to abide by and if they obey the whole 1000 years they will live but these will be rebels in their heart to God and they will be deceived by Satan when he is loosed out of the bottomless pit to the earth and they will all be destroyed in the last rebellion of Revelation 20:8-10.

2. At the end of the 1000 years, Satan being thrown into the lake of fire, the sinners resurrected and judged and thrown into the lake of fire.

3. After these things in point 2 are finished the Son will give the Kingdom back to the Father so God can be all in all and the KOH physical earth will be in total harmony with the whole universal KOG.

4. This is when the 2nd renovation will be which will be the New Heaven and the New Earth. Our heaven and earth will never be annihilated but fire will purify it and that is what fire does and Peter shows the day of the Lord which is when he sets up the KOH which the Father gives the Son.

5. Peter also shows that the Day of God with the New Heaven and the New Earth of Revelation 21 will be when the Son gives the KOH back to the Father and God will be all in all.

6. This is the 2nd renovation by fire which is not annihilation. If you don't understand this you don't understand how and why God has " Order" to all things. Jerry kelso

LastSeven said:

Here's a link to the document on OneDrive: https://1drv.ms/w/s!ApIFGppMjzfXnZUabqkD9EEALZ1DvA

I actually compiled it as a response to a request by Happy Camper above, but he never acknowledged it. Maybe you will.

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lastseven,
1. I have addressed these issues in the past and you haven't been able to come up with an answer.

2. Your progressive parallelism isn't anything new and there are pre-tribbers that believe some of that or close to it called chiasms.

3. You think everything is like a puzzle well that is true and not true.
The book is chronological for the most part and the parenthetical passages work in and around the seals, trumpets and judgements even though certain passages may be in a different time of the tribulation.
For example, the trumpets are in the middle of the tribulation but Revelation 17 is after the vials have already been written but the fulfillment of the Mystery Babylon is in the second half of the tribulation and not after the seals in the chapter before.

4. The 6 seals happen and then there is a parenthetical of the 144,000 jews that are sealed at that time and the great multitude are not fulfilled until they go through great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and there is a silence in heaven and the trumpet angels get ready to sound but the silence in heaven is not the end but it is a Yom Kippur service of the trumpet angels preparing and offering up prayers of the saints before they sound.

5. Then the first 6 trumpet angels blow and then there is the parenthetical of the mighty angel clothed with a cloud and a rainbow over his head etc. and has a little book which has to do with redemption of the land concerning the kinsman redeemer.

6. The mystery of God will be in the days of the 7th trumpet and it is not the second coming because that was not a mystery in the old testament or new testament. The mystery happens in Revelation 12 which is Satan being cast out of heaven and will no longer be able to accuse the brethren in heaven. He still can do this.
John eats the book and it sweet as honey because of truth and bitter because of tribulation.

7. Revelation 11 is about the middle of the tribulation when the AOD happens and the holy city being trodden down has to be happening in the second half of the tribulation because of the ministry of the two witnesses because the earthquake after they are risen is said to be the same as Revelation 16 at the battle of Armageddon. Some do believe that the temple has to be built in the 1st half of the tribulation and the 2 witnesses will be in the first half. Either way the 7th angel sounds and there are great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. This is not being fulfilled at this time but it is about the great confrontation time almost being up.

8. The saints are still in heaven and will be judged for their works in verse 18.

9. Revelation 12 is happening right in the middle of the tribulation in the days of the 7th angel because the mystery of God is the accuser of the brethren being kicked out of heave and as one can see there is no battle of Armageddon but it shows the middle of the tribulation where Satan can't catch the manchild who are the 144,000 and gets mad and goes after the woman and can't get her because she is preserved in the wilderness and then Satan tries to get the remnant and can't get them either.

10. At this point is when Satan is fixing to give his power over to the Antichrist which will begin the second half of the tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble.

11. I have to stop here but the point is that Revelation has the seals, trumpets and vials that are consecutive and the parenthetical passages work in or around them and some happen at a different time.

12. As far as Revelation 20 is definitely chronologically about Satan in the bottomless pit for 1000 years and the tribulations saints being resurrected before the 7 vials will have rulership positions in the kingdom for 1000 years etc. Then the rebellion has to happen to get rid of sin and rebellion after the 1000 years and throw Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet who were in the tribulation a thousand years before that at the battle of Armageddon.

13. Then the GWTJ for the sinners and then the New Heaven and the New Earth.

14. I have to go but if you have something to say go ahead and I will be back later on tonight late and might have time to answer more.

15. One more thing about you spiritual resurrection has nothing to do with the physical resurrection except that the believes have to believe spiritually in order to be resurrected physically and go to heaven etc.

16. You are mixing in things and using allegorical semantics to prove things you can't and do away with things that are literal or that are half truths. We'll talk later. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

There will be the first renovation on the Day of the Lord which is the millennial kingdom of 1000 years.
This will be a renovation of nature and there will be no more wars, disease, etc.
There will be earthly people who will not know God and there will be jewish missionaries to propagate the gospel and some will get saved and others will not.
Some sinners will sin a death penalty sin and be cut off immediately and swiftly.

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You seem to be saying there will be a New Heavens and a New Earth at the Second Coming of Christ and say there will be no more wars, disease, etc. If disease is eliminated, it means the curse is eliminated.

Then you turn right around and claim that sin will still exist and there will be a death penalty for sin.

You have produced a conflict, which means your interpretation cannot be correct.

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jerry kelso said:

2. Your progressive parallelism isn't anything new and there are pre-tribbers that believe some of that or close to it called chiasms.

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Good, then maybe you're open to reading Revelation with progressive parallelism in mind.

jerry kelso said:

3. You think everything is like a puzzle well that is true and not true.
The book is chronological for the most part and the parenthetical passages work in and around the seals, trumpets and judgements even though certain passages may be in a different time of the tribulation.
For example, the trumpets are in the middle of the tribulation but Revelation 17 is after the vials have already been written but the fulfillment of the Mystery Babylon is in the second half of the tribulation and not after the seals in the chapter before.

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Do you see that the seventh trumpet blows at the end of the thousand years?

jerry kelso said:

The mystery happens in Revelation 12 which is Satan being cast out of heaven and will no longer be able to accuse the brethren in heaven. He still can do this.

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He still can do this? Where in the new testament does it say that Satan still accuses us before God? Job lived long before Jesus received his authority and power and I don't see any examples after Jesus received his authority of Satan still accusing us. So please enlighten me if you can.

I think you're forgetting that Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And at that time, according to Revelation 12, the Messiah receives his authority. Jesus said he received his authority in Matthew 28:18.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Those are facts if you believe scripture is true. Do you deny them? Did Satan not fall from heaven? Did Jesus not receive his authority?

jerry kelso said:

11. I have to stop here but the point is that Revelation has the seals, trumpets and vials that are consecutive and the parenthetical passages work in or around them and some happen at a different time.

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That was a lot of unrelated stuff Jerry. Try to stay focused. Do you see that the seventh trumpet blows at the end of the thousand years?

jerry kelso said:

15. One more thing about you spiritual resurrection has nothing to do with the physical resurrection except that the believes have to believe spiritually in order to be resurrected physically and go to heaven etc.

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Are you saying there is no spiritual resurrection?

BABerean2 said:

The removal of the curse has to be relevant to people dying.

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Then you tell me, since people are still dying, do you see that verse as a removal of the curse?

BABerean2 said:

You seem to be saying there will be a New Heavens and a New Earth at the Second Coming of Christ and say there will be no more wars, disease, etc. If disease is eliminated, it means the curse is eliminated.

Then you turn right around and claim that sin will still exist and there will be a death penalty for sin.

You have produced a conflict, which means your interpretation cannot be correct.

.

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baberean2,

1. Isaiah 2:-4 says there won't be any war or nation lifting a hand against nation.
Christ will judge and rebuke many.
The curse will be lifted and I said that and gave Romans 8:19-22. Read Joel 2:21-27, and 2 Peter 3:10-11.

2. Isaiah 65:17 I already explained so I don't know why I have to repeat myself. It is talking about Jerusalem and is talking about the millennial kingdom and the New Heaven and the New Earth because Jerusalem will be saved at the battle of Armageddon and the former things will not be remembered like they were which is at the beginning of the 1000 year reign and the rebellion at the end of the 1000 year reign.

3. The curse of nature will be lifted and the animal kingdom will no longer be cursed for the wolf will lay down with the lamb etc. Isaiah 11:6-9.

4. People won't be dying of disease which is different than sinners in the kingdom who decide they want to sin and commit a death penalty sin and be executed.
Christ will rule with a rod of iron and the saints will be given power over the nations. This is why the church is in training right now for the KOH for if we suffer we shall reign.

5. No I just stated the scripture that says Christ will rule with a rod of iron Psalm 2:9 and that he will judge accordingly in the kingdom Isaiah 11:3-5, 16:5, and 65:20.

6. Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6,7; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28;
7. Revelation 20:7-10 shows there are sinners. Revelation Expounded Finis J. Dake Pg. 344.

8. Isaiah 65:20 says sinners will exist and you said you agreed with Barnes and now you are not.

9. Your problem is that you think more of your human reasoning than the scripture.

10. God's theocracy will have laws for it takes laws to govern freewill people.
There is no conflict in the scripture of what I just gave. The conflict is in your wrong assessment. Jerry Kelso

LastSeven said:

Good, then maybe you're open to reading Revelation with progressive parallelism in mind.

Do you see that the seventh trumpet blows at the end of the thousand years?

He still can do this? Where in the new testament does it say that Satan still accuses us before God? Job lived long before Jesus received his authority and power and I don't see any examples after Jesus received his authority of Satan still accusing us. So please enlighten me if you can.

I think you're forgetting that Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And at that time, according to Revelation 12, the Messiah receives his authority. Jesus said he received his authority in Matthew 28:18.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Those are facts if you believe scripture is true. Do you deny them? Did Satan not fall from heaven? Did Jesus not receive his authority?


That was a lot of unrelated stuff Jerry. Try to stay focused. Do you see that the seventh trumpet blows at the end of the thousand years?

Are you saying there is no spiritual resurrection?

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lastseven,

1. There is no scripture that says there is a seventh trumpet that blows after the 1000 years. The seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15 blows in the middle of the tribulation.

2. Job 1:6-12 Can you read Satan talking about Job and lifting the hedge etc. and that Satan went out of the presence of the Lord? Revelation 12:10 Satan is called the accuser of the brethren and Satan was kicked out of heaven for good. Can you read?

3. Jesus did see Satan fall as lightning fall from heaven and that was in the past.

4. Matthew 28:18 Christ did receive all authority and power in heaven and earth.
God has always had full overall control of the whole universe. This doesn't mean that Satan had no power over sinners or that he didn't have any influence over them and this is why he is called the God of this world.
Christ receiving power and authority in heaven and earth doesn't mean that he doesn't have overall authority but he hasn't taken over the kingdoms of the world who will be under the influence of Satan in the time of Jacob's trouble.

5. Revelation 12 is future and the sun-clothed woman is not the church but it is Israel the nation who is travailing as in Isaiah 66:7-9 where Zion travails and brings forth her children.

6. The man child is the 144,000 because it is future and it is connected to the 7 heads and ten horns. The 7 heads are crowned for Satan was present for the 1st 6 nations that oppressed Israel and will be present with the 7th head in the future which will be the 10 horns. The Antichrist will come on the scene right after this to set up his kingdom which is the 8th kingdom from Revelation 17:7-11.

7. The man child as the 144,000 are raptured shortly after the first part of the second half of the tribulation in the days of the 7th trumpet. Revelation 14 they are before the throne, redeemed from among men and they are the first fruits of the tribulation who are raptured.

8. The man child is not about Christ for this passage is future and John had already seen the Lord born, died, and resurrected. The time factor of Revelation is found in Revelation 1:19. I will stop here because I know that is too much information for you to digest.

9. You are the one that needs to get focused on proper hermeneutics instead of your faulty hermeneutics and illogical reasoning and opinions.

10. As far as a spiritual resurrection one has to be spiritual changed to resurrection of life that Christ talked about in John 11 when he said he was the resurrection and the life. Spiritual resurrection happens when a person gets saved. That has nothing to do with physical resurrection except for the fact that believers have to be spiritually resurrected in order to be raised in physical resurrection. The sinners will be resurrected but not spiritually.

11. Your spiritual resurrection is that the same as spiritually ruling today. The only thing Christians can rule over by faith and God's help is dealing with Satan. It cannot be world governments in a theocracy because the nations of the world are still basically controlled by wicked people. Jerry Kelso

SeventyOne said:

Then you tell me, since people are still dying, do you see that verse as a removal of the curse?

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We seem to be going in circles here.

The context of the verse reveals that people cannot be dying, because it is occurring in the New Heavens and the New Earth and the last verse in the chapter reveals that the curse has been lifted.

The verse has to be hyperbole or there is a problem with the translation as indicated by Albert Barnes or both.

See if you can find any other passage which describes people living in the New Heavens and the New Earth when people are dying.

If there is a conflict, then there must be a problem in interpretation.

I greatly appreciate your fellowship, but we may not be able to come to agreement on this passage.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint in a Godly manner.

.

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jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. Isaiah 2:-4 says there won't be any war or nation lifting a hand against nation.
Christ will judge and rebuke many.
The curse will be lifted and I said that and gave Romans 8:19-22. Read Joel 2:21-27, and 2 Peter 3:10-11.

2. Isaiah 65:17 I already explained so I don't know why I have to repeat myself. It is talking about Jerusalem and is talking about the millennial kingdom and the New Heaven and the New Earth because Jerusalem will be saved at the battle of Armageddon and the former things will not be remembered like they were which is at the beginning of the 1000 year reign and the rebellion at the end of the 1000 year reign.

3. The curse of nature will be lifted and the animal kingdom will no longer be cursed for the wolf will lay down with the lamb etc. Isaiah 11:6-9.

4. People won't be dying of disease which is different than sinners in the kingdom who decide they want to sin and commit a death penalty sin and be executed.
Christ will rule with a rod of iron and the saints will be given power over the nations. This is why the church is in training right now for the KOH for if we suffer we shall reign.

5. No I just stated the scripture that says Christ will rule with a rod of iron Psalm 2:9 and that he will judge accordingly in the kingdom Isaiah 11:3-5, 16:5, and 65:20.

6. Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6,7; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28;
7. Revelation 20:7-10 shows there are sinners. Revelation Expounded Finis J. Dake Pg. 344.

8. Isaiah 65:20 says sinners will exist and you said you agreed with Barnes and now you are not.

9. Your problem is that you think more of your human reasoning than the scripture.

10. God's theocracy will have laws for it takes laws to govern freewill people.
There is no conflict in the scripture of what I just gave. The conflict is in your wrong assessment. Jerry Kelso

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To make John Darby's doctrine work, we need 2 Peoples of God/ 2 Kingdoms of God/ a New Testament "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 Resurrections of the dead/ 2 Judgments of the dead/ and now 2 New Heavens and New Earths.

Now I understand.

You have now produced a New Heavens and a New Earth that have been "Rightly Divided" to make John Darby's doctrine work.

Based on the 2nd Psalm, the potter uses the rod of iron to destroy the corrupt pots, not to keep them under control.


Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
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BABerean2 said:

To make John Darby's doctrine work, we need 2 Peoples of God/ 2 Kingdoms of God/ a New Testament "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 Resurrections of the dead/ 2 Judgments of the dead/ and now 2 New Heavens and New Earths.

Now I understand.

You have now produced a New Heavens and a New Earth that have been "Rightly Divided" to make John Darby's doctrine work.

Based on the 2nd Psalm, the potter uses the rod of iron to destroy the corrupt pots, not to keep them under control.


Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
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baberean2,

1. You are not being honest except your opinion which is dishonest in your assessment.

2. Two peoples of God are under the same covenant; the new covenant called the church.
Just because the nation of jews have an earthly calling as head of the nations doesn't mean there are two peoples of God for they will still be one in Christ with us.

3. Two kingdoms is on the same earth they just have different purposes in two different times.
The millennial KOH which Jesus preached was postponed because of Israel's rejection Matthew 23:37-39. It will be restored along with the nation of Israel for 1000 years for the purpose of putting down sin and rebellion and so the son can reign physically for 1000 years and then give the kingdom back to the Father physically so God can be all in all 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
The actual location of the KOH earthly sphere will have an eternal reign. Daniel 7:27
The New Heaven and the New Earth will be the same location and the same earth as the the KOH but will have the final renovation physically. 2 Peter 3:12; Revelation 21:1-2.

4. Rightly divided into 2 parts is crazy. Truth is truth and there is the basic old covenant and new covenant and then there are covenant before that and history and prophecies which have been fulfilled and others are still future.

5. Christ the Messiah came at the first coming.
The battle of Armageddon is the second coming.
The rapture of the dead saints and the living saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 of the church was a mystery to the old testament saints who the prophets prophesied of the second coming.
The rapture is neither the first or second coming.
The first coming Christ was the first fruits and some were resurrected and went into the city and Christ took those in Abrahams bosom to heaven but there was no rapture of dead and believing saints.
The second coming the saints from Adam all the way to the last saints of the tribulation who are resurrected before the 7 vials which is before the second coming will come with Christ out of Heaven Revelation 14:13, 15:1-2 and Revelation 20:4-6 and there is no resurrection of dead and believers at Armageddon or those of the last of tribulation saints who were martyrs in Revelation 15:1 and Revelations 20:4-6 who complete the first resurrection of all the believers in Christ.
You are confused like usual not to mention you just want to believe your own doctrine instead of the truth.

6. The two new heavens and earth are the same location.
The first one will be completely new because of the kingdom being set up and the the theocracy of Christ starts and so the former things of the earth under the governments of men and satan influencing and controlling those evil people will not be there.
The second time will be the last state of perfection. The only difference is that those rebels in Revelation 20:8-10 will be rid of and God will sanctify and renovate one more time because he is a God of order.
You just like taking the scriptures out of context?

7. Psalm 149, Isaiah 60:17 saints will be judges, officers and magistrates in the kingdom.
Job 36:7 saints will co-rule with Christ as kings.
Matthew 25:23, Luke 19:6-19 the faithful will be rulers in the kingdom.
Once again you are dishonest in your assessment and don't seem to care at all. The more you post all this false assessments the truth indicts your position more. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

Two peoples of God are under the same covenant; the new covenant called the church.
Just because the nation of jews have an earthly calling as head of the nations doesn't mean there are two peoples of God for they will still be one in Christ with us.

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Jerry,

You have gone off the Darby/Scofield Plantation by putting both peoples of God into the New Covenant Church.

Classic Dispensationalists like Clearance Larkin declared that the Church is the Church and Israel is Israel and never the twain shall meet. This allows them to claim that the Jews will be in an earthly kingdom and the Church will be in a heavenly kingdom. Your Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven claims come directly from this part of the doctrine.

Your present viewpoint is another of the many mutations of John Darby's doctrine in an attempt to make the doctrine match up with scripture. You cannot have it both ways. Either there are two separate peoples of God with two separate kingdoms or there are not.

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jerry kelso said:

lastseven,

1. There is no scripture that says there is a seventh trumpet that blows after the 1000 years.

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Yes, there is. Did you not read the document I linked to?

Revelation 11:17
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This tells us that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of God the Father and He will reign forever and ever. When do you think this happens?

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants

This tells us that the time of the judging of the dead has come, as well as the time of the rewarding of the servants. When do you think this happens?

So don't tell me there is no scripture that says the seventh trumpet blows after the thousand years. It's right there in front of your eyes. Stop avoiding it.

jerry kelso said:

2. Job 1:6-12 Can you read Satan talking about Job and lifting the hedge etc. and that Satan went out of the presence of the Lord? Revelation 12:10 Satan is called the accuser of the brethren and Satan was kicked out of heaven for good. Can you read?

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Dude, are you serious right now? I'm the one who told you that Satan was cast out of heaven when Jesus received all his authority and you said that he was not yet cast out of heaven. Now you're accusing me of not understanding? Let me remind you of what you said

"The mystery happens in Revelation 12 which is Satan being cast out of heaven and will no longer be able to accuse the brethren in heaven. He still can do this."

You clearly said that he will be cast out of heaven sometime in the future, and now you're saying Satan was kicked out of heaven for good and asking me if I can read??? Seriously? I can definitely read, but the question is, can you remember what you wrote?

jerry kelso said:

3. Jesus did see Satan fall as lightning fall from heaven and that was in the past.

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So now agree that this is in the past? I thought you just said he can still accuse us in heaven. Ya, you did. You said: He still can do this. So how can Satan still accuse us in heaven if he's been kicked out for good?

jerry kelso said:

4. Matthew 28:18 Christ did receive all authority and power in heaven and earth.
God has always had full overall control of the whole universe. This doesn't mean that Satan had no power over sinners or that he didn't have any influence over them and this is why he is called the God of this world.
Christ receiving power and authority in heaven and earth doesn't mean that he doesn't have overall authority but he hasn't taken over the kingdoms of the world who will be under the influence of Satan in the time of Jacob's trouble.

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So you agree that Jesus received all authority and power, so why can't you just admit that Jesus currently reigns? Why do you insist on Jesus being physically on earth with all governments subject to Him? The only time that happens is on the new earth.

jerry kelso said:

5. Revelation 12 is future ...

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Are you on drugs or something? Did you forget already what you said in your second point? Let me remind you. You said "Satan was kicked out of heaven for good" and now you're telling me this is still future??? You're just all over the map on this issue, aren't you? Maybe take a minute and sort it out in your head before you post.

jerry kelso said:

6. The man child is the 144,000 because it is future and it is connected to the 7 heads and ten horns. The 7 heads are crowned for Satan was present for the 1st 6 nations that oppressed Israel and will be present with the 7th head in the future which will be the 10 horns. The Antichrist will come on the scene right after this to set up his kingdom which is the 8th kingdom from Revelation 17:7-11.

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I really don't know why you thought all this was relevant to the discussion, or how this proves I'm wrong about ... anything. Try to focus Jerry.

jerry kelso said:

7. The man child as the 144,000 are raptured shortly after the first part of the second half of the tribulation in the days of the 7th trumpet. Revelation 14 they are before the throne, redeemed from among men and they are the first fruits of the tribulation who are raptured.

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Again, I don't know what the point is of all this drivel. Completely irrelevant obfuscation of the issue.

jerry kelso said:

8. The man child is not about Christ for this passage is future and John had already seen the Lord born, died, and resurrected. The time factor of Revelation is found in Revelation 1:19. I will stop here because I know that is too much information for you to digest.

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Ha! Too much information for me to digest? You haven't told me anything yet, except that you think it's all future, no wait, you agree that it was in the past, except that it's still future, or was it in the past? How about you clarify it in your head first, then come back and either prove to me that I'm wrong, or admit that you can't. I'm waiting. And don't worry, I can digest it.

jerry kelso said:

9. You are the one that needs to get focused on proper hermeneutics instead of your faulty hermeneutics and illogical reasoning and opinions.

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More big words without anything to back you up.

jerry kelso said:

10. As far as a spiritual resurrection one has to be spiritual changed to resurrection of life that Christ talked about in John 11 when he said he was the resurrection and the life. Spiritual resurrection happens when a person gets saved.

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Do you not realize that you're repeating exactly what I said? Of course the spiritual resurrection happens when a person gets saved. That's my point! Why do you think you're arguing with me here when this is exactly the point I made in my document. Makes me wonder if you were able to digest it all.

jerry kelso said:

11. Your spiritual resurrection is that the same as spiritually ruling today. The only thing Christians can rule over by faith and God's help is dealing with Satan.

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Exactly!!! That's how we rule!!! Now you're getting it.

jerry kelso said:

It cannot be world governments in a theocracy because the nations of the world are still basically controlled by wicked people. Jerry Kelso

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No argument there, but this is also irrelevant in terms of the thousand year reign. The thousand year reign is a spiritual reign, not a physical reign. You have to get that out of your head. The only time Jesus will physically reign on earth is when he is seated next to his Father's throne on the new earth, when Jesus is made subject to the Father, and they will reign together forever and ever. (This is also described at the blowing of the seventh trumpet by the way)

LastSeven said:

Here's a link to the document on OneDrive: https://1drv.ms/w/s!ApIFGppMjzfXnZUabqkD9EEALZ1DvA

I actually compiled it as a response to a request by Happy Camper above, but he never acknowledged it. Maybe you will.

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I took a look at the article in the link.

John chapter 5 must be considered in order to understand "the first resurrection".

There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.
The first is spiritual and the second is a bodily resurrection.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The verse above says that those who believe are passed from death to life.
This is a spiritual resurrection.
It is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In the passage above we have a bodily resurrection of all the dead bracketed by verses about Christ being the judge.
This is the second resurrection found in John chapter 5.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This occurs at the Second Coming of Christ, on the last day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This verse reveals the timing of the bodily resurrection found in John 5:27-30.

Now all we have to do is determine when does the "first resurrection" occur.

As Jesus revealed to Nicodemus and is the same found in John 5:24, it occurs upon faith in Christ when a person is spiritually passed from death to life by being "born again".
This is the first resurrection.

For those "souls" that John saw with Christ in Revelation chapter 20, it occurred when they came to faith in Christ.

Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


When is the book of life read in the Book of Revelation chapter 20 and what type of resurrection occurs with it?

Is it not the second resurrection found at John 5:27-30?


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Actually, LastSeven, I can't think of anything you said that is scriptural. I don't agree with Jerry that often but, with his debate with you, he's right on the money. Even BAB2 knows more truth than you do.

lol. Everything Bab2 said there I agree with, so not sure where you think he and I disagree.

And nothing I've said is scriptural? If you're referring to the document I linked to, it's all scriptural. Unless actual scripture is not scriptural enough for you. Maybe you have me confused with somebody else.