Escaping the Great Tribulation?
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-Wrong it is founded on the Covenant Theology.
-While your theology is based on dispensation theology.
Here the difference between the two.
http://faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoctrine/DispCov.htm
Dispensation theology was invented in the mid 1800 in support to the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine.
Basically dispensation theology who was invented in the mid 1800 promote that
4. 'Israel' always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob.
5--'Israel of God' in Gal. 6:16 means physical Israel alone.
6-God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly).
7-The Church was born at Pentecost.
Covenant theology on the other hand say that :
4. ‘Israel’ may mean either literal, physicaldescendants of Jacob or the figurative, spiritual Israel, depending on context.
5- ‘Israel of God’ in Gal. 6:16 means spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28029, 9:6; Phil. 3:3.
6-God has always had only 1 people, the Church gradually developed.
7-The Church began in O. T. (Acts 7:38) and reached fulfillment in the N. T.
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Welcome to the club. If there is a disagreement they just fall back on, "these people don't read the Bible, do they", and this from a guy who's already declared that he's not prepared to even think about alternatives contrary to what he's already "settled in his heart".
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I'm reminded of the syrophoenician woman from Matthew 15:24-28. Jesus starts off by refusing to help her, claiming that he's only come for the "Lost sheep of Israel". Then, when she shows great faith, he praises her and helps her.
Either Jesus contradicted himself, or this woman showed herself to actually be one of the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" through her faith.
It's not replacement theology to say that God is more interested in the spirit than in DNA. It is a clarification of the mistakes that humans made through their own twisted reasoning. The Israelites had become complacent, thinking of themselves as special just because they had the correct DNA, rather than their personal, individual relationship with God. It's not so hard to imagine, since there's plenty of Christians who do that very same thing, today. Children do it with their parents. Students do it with their teachers. Employees do it with their bosses. Members do it with this forum (i.e. thinking their entitled to post any kind of content they want just because they are Christian or because they signed up etc) It's a pretty common motivation which we usually describe with the word "entitlement".
God's experiment with the children of Israel showed that there is no group, no people, no affiliation, and no religion which can guarantee faithfulness. He tried for thousands of years and it just didn't work. When Jesus died on the cross he said, "It is finished". There's a lot of room for interpretation as to what exactly he meant, but I believe, as God is often able, Jesus meant a few different things at the same time.
One is that his sacrifice on the cross was completed. Another is that his time with humanity in physical form was completed. Another is that the Jewish nation, as the official representatives of "God's people" was finished. At that very moment the veil in the Holy of holies (the epicenter of Jewish faith, which is why it's described with a superlative (i.e. best, most, holiest) was torn in two. God had broken out of the box and now "his people" are those with sincere faith who "follow the lamb withersoever he goeth", as the Revelation so passionately states the concept.
The example of the OT is there for us as a reminder that only individual faith can make one a true "child of Israel" in the spiritual sense of what the title is actually meant to communicate. If the Jews want to be right with God then they need to follow Jesus just like any other Christian and when they do, that means forsaking any kind of special meaning behind the DNA or even the cultural background. Paul listed all his greatness as a pharisee and religious leader, including his strict Jewish heritage, and then said he counted all of it as dung for Christ, but he words it in such a way as to suggest that there was an exchange needed. He could not be a follower of Jesus and still hold on to all his success as a religious leader.
It's like that for any of us. We're called on to forsake everything for God, whether it be respectability, family, jobs, possessions, reputation, heritage/culture, identity, titles etc. We become new creatures in Christ. The Old covenant is finished. All the promises to Abraham (and consequently the children of Israel) were fulfilled in Jesus. Jesus is the door now, and anyone who tries to get in some other way, including claims to being "gods elect because of DNA or OT promises" are thieves.
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I feel like you're missing the bigger picture here. Lots wife looked back because she cared about the things of the world more than Gods faithfulness and the promise He had made to Lot and his family. As a result, her lack of faith gave her that which she valued more, to be part of the world that was being destroyed for its wickedness.
Speaking of the eagles or vultures that are in several synonymous passages in Scripture one is in Matthew 24:4-28, Jesus is simply warning us not to listen to the world but to listen to what He has given to us through His Word. Where the carcass is (death/worldly things) there the vultures will gather (one's who love worldly things and what it has to offer)
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23 is the passage to be shared here.
"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6
“Do you finally believe?” Jesus replied. “Look, an hour is coming and has already come when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and you will leave Me all alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!” John 16:31-33
I hope some of this has helped you! You will find that Romans 8 is a good read for you, friend. Have faith that God will do everything you need Him to do!
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Hey, we've to separate two things: the Hebrews and the Converted Gentiles. Christians around the world are favored converted Gentiles and Hebrews are Highly favored Israelite. Ironically, there are also Hebrews (Judaism) kind and the Believing Hebrews (Messianics). So the Believing Hebrews will be 144,000 that shall have the seal of the Lamb! Converted Gentiles will however, be rewarded for their faith especially after the fierce times of GT and our Crowns will be for our Faith in the King of kings, Lord of Hosts! Either way, none is less than the other but one may have had preference than the others because the Gospel of truth came from a Hebrew (Mashiach).
Please I have no intentions of claiming the church has any place in believing it's of the Hebrews but rather grafted into the Hebrew Promise and just that is as far as it will ever get. Therefore, Converted ones should not assume any high importance over the sealed, but be glad that the LORD is with us too! He doesn't play favorites but he will bless whoever he will bless and it's neither in my power or any church to decide who should supercede who... it was written and the LORD will bring his will to LIFE!!! So the ones spared of GT will be the Sealed!
Please I have no intentions of claiming the church has any place in believing it's of the Hebrews but rather grafted into the Hebrew Promise and just that is as far as it will ever get. Therefore, Converted ones should not assume any high importance over the sealed, but be glad that the LORD is with us too! He doesn't play favorites but he will bless whoever he will bless and it's neither in my power or any church to decide who should supercede who... it was written and the LORD will bring his will to LIFE!!! So the ones spared of GT will be the Sealed!
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Yep, this is replacement theology in all its glory!
You're going to eat these words when the prophesy of Zechariah fulfills in the future, and Israel is restored to their destiny.
Zech. 8:20-23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
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Yep, this is replacement theology in all its glory!
You're going to eat these words when the prophesy of Zechariah fulfills in the future, and Israel is restored to their destiny.
Zech. 8:20-23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
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Yep, this is replacement theology in all its glory!
You're going to eat these words when the prophesy of Zechariah fulfills in the future, and Israel is restored to their destiny.
Zech. 8:20-23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Upvote
0
Yep, this is replacement theology in all its glory!
You're going to eat these words when the prophesy of Zechariah fulfills in the future, and Israel is restored to their destiny.
Zech. 8:20-23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
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Doug said:
Yes, it's the rapture... heaven opens, voice like a trumpet, come up hither, suddenly in heaven.... rapture all over that passage.... Jesus's voice, "I am going to show you the things that must be hereafter" - hereafter the rapture.
John’s experience
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
The rapture as described by Paul.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
There was no coming of the Lord in Rev 4:1
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
In Rev 4:1 the Lord did not descend from heaven with a shout.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In Rev 4:1 John did not meet the Lord in the air, Christ was not even there when John arrived.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
John was not changed into immortality he was “in the spirit”, it was most likely a vision.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
John was not changed nor were any dead raised. The last trump did not sound. No dead were raised.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
John did not put on immortality. John was in the spirit plain and simple. No more no less.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Death was not “swallowed up in victory” in Rev 4:1.
Rev. 4:1 is not a rapture as described by Paul. The voice John heard was described “as it were of a trumpet” this is a description of the power and force of the voice John heard. The text does not say it was a trumpet.
Paul’s rapture describes a trumpet.
Rev 4:1 does not mention Jesus Christ Rev. 4 and the first part of 5 describes a scene in heaven before Jesus arrived after the resurrection and His ascension. Rev 5:3 no “man was found” Jesus was not there. Jesus appears in verse 6.
If you believe Revelation 4 describes a rapture you should have no trouble seeing a rapture in Revelation 11 at the real last trumpet.
I you wanted to argue Rev. 4 is a type of the rapture I would disagree but I could at least see where you are coming from. No my brother Rev 4 is not a rapture, the rapture or a type of the rapture it is John in the spirit being shown things which must be here after. Here after is not after the church, nor here after the rapture of the church, it is from that point forward. There was no church in heaven in Rev 4 or 5. John was being shown a scene from his real earth time past in chapters 4 &5. When the scene starts Jesus was not even in it.
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You've not actually addressed the content of my post. You're talk sounds pretty brave, but it sounds like more of that "I won't think about it" stuff you were saying earlier.
How does this support Christians running away from suffering for their faith (i.e. the Great Tribulation)?
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"I haven't been taught by anyone"
I hear this excuse all of the time on the "Christian" forum boards
You have, and you know it .... and I know the source .... your religious affiliation is easily recognize by the way you speak
When the Lord calls for His true ecclesia as He has promised .... the door will be closed [Matthew 25:1-13]
Those who find themselves on the wrong side of the door will be told to go shop .... and they will find themselves in a traffic jam hunting for mostly bare shelves .... a virtual famine of the Word of the Lord
And they will attempt to argue their way out of the Lord's keeping and instead choose His intent to spit them into the fire of His wrath and tribulation .... before they hit the road [Revelation 3:15-20]
When an issue like this one is so highly controversial, one can know that a war is being waged between the forces of good and evil
I hear this excuse all of the time on the "Christian" forum boards
You have, and you know it .... and I know the source .... your religious affiliation is easily recognize by the way you speak
When the Lord calls for His true ecclesia as He has promised .... the door will be closed [Matthew 25:1-13]
Those who find themselves on the wrong side of the door will be told to go shop .... and they will find themselves in a traffic jam hunting for mostly bare shelves .... a virtual famine of the Word of the Lord
And they will attempt to argue their way out of the Lord's keeping and instead choose His intent to spit them into the fire of His wrath and tribulation .... before they hit the road [Revelation 3:15-20]
When an issue like this one is so highly controversial, one can know that a war is being waged between the forces of good and evil
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You have explained exactly the spiritual implications of Lot's example, but you fall short of making the connection as to why he used Lot's example in relation to the days just before his return. When God tells us to go, there will be a lot of people looking back. This is not a secret rapture scenario and that is precisely why Jesus used Lot's example.
He follows that up by saying, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" and then describes his return in the clouds and the angels gathering his followers from all over the world. As a result, your conclusion necessitates more than one rapture, and you're gonna run into a whole lot of problems going down that road. This is why Jesus goes through the effort of telling us not to go running off into the desert or the secret chambers, because his return will be like the lightening in the sky. The thought being communicated here is a one-of-a-kind event.
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I'd suggest the war is more between fear and faith. The pre-trib rapture theory is popular because it represents a golden ticket away from suffering for our faith. Rather than putting your hope is a soft, cuddly bed of roses drifting up to Heaven, why not put a little more faith in Jesus' teachings not to be afraid of what they can do to our bodies.
Which one is more consistent with Jesus' message. Running away or laying down our lives? In just about any conversation I've had on this topic the issue always comes down to God being unloving for expecting his followers to suffer for their faith. A loving God would not blah blah blah. I mean, what are we really talking about regarding the Great Tribulation. The worst the world can do is death, but to hear pre-tribbers talk about it, it's the most horrifying thing they can imagine.
The Revelation talks about saints who overcome the Beast by laying down their lives. What does that actually mean? Certainly not that they are beating the beast at his own game by going to war with guns. I doubt it means they somehow out maneuver him economically so that he can't afford to persecute the saints.
How does a Christian laying down his life equate to overcoming the Beast? The same way Jesus laying down his life overcame the world. Take up your cross. Follow me. That's what he said. There is something more important in this existence than physical survival. Our willingness to lay our lives down shows that the beast nor the world has any real power. But complacent Christians today have somehow gotten the idea that a loving God owes them the easy way out.
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"This is why Jesus goes through the effort of telling us not to go running off into the desert or the secret chambers, because his return will be like the lightening in the sky. The thought being communicated here is a one-of-a-kind event."
You are misapplying a warning given to Israel in the tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble
And if you are not one of Israel, but a Gentile, you are not going off and running anywhere .... do you currently live in Israel in the Middle East? .... and are you an Israelite?
Matthew 24 is written specifically to Israel for the nation's experience in the coming tribulation at the time of the end .... and this passage of scripture has absolutely nothing to do with today's "church"
The Lord is speaking to members of the nation of Israel .... His nation
The location is given and the "fleeing" is described [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]
You need to read scripture more carefully .... and I would also suggest that you drop your fetish related to the idea that your religious organization and Israel are one and the same
When you use this erroneous precept it keeps your from rendering prophetic scripture with accuracy as you seem to be doing
You are misapplying a warning given to Israel in the tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble
And if you are not one of Israel, but a Gentile, you are not going off and running anywhere .... do you currently live in Israel in the Middle East? .... and are you an Israelite?
Matthew 24 is written specifically to Israel for the nation's experience in the coming tribulation at the time of the end .... and this passage of scripture has absolutely nothing to do with today's "church"
The Lord is speaking to members of the nation of Israel .... His nation
The location is given and the "fleeing" is described [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]
You need to read scripture more carefully .... and I would also suggest that you drop your fetish related to the idea that your religious organization and Israel are one and the same
When you use this erroneous precept it keeps your from rendering prophetic scripture with accuracy as you seem to be doing
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"I'd suggest the war is more between fear and faith"
Of course you would
I am just going to make one comment to your post with your above statement
Your salvation does no come by your works .... but by faith in the One who has already paid the price
You cannot save yourself by your desire and experience of being persecuted
Whether you are persecuted or not makes no difference .... some are .... and some are not
You have been sold a persecution complex mentality and this is not a good thing for you
This teaching is binding upon you to the extent that you must keep certain hand picked laws required by your religion affiliation ... and you are told that you must suffer persecution for your own purification
The Lord's sacrifice has set a man free to believe in Him for the man's salvation .... it appears to me that you are in some sort of bondage
So I see you desiring to enter the tribulation of His wrath and judgment that is coming when He has promised to keep you from the same .... and that you must prove your salvation by doing so
Is there something wrong with this picture?
And by the way, I am in no way a "complacent" Christian .... far from it .... do I sound like one?
You call the Lord's promise to keep a saved man from His unprecedented wrath and judgment that is coming upon a world of unbelief a .... "golden ticket" ....... are you mocking Him?
Of course you would
I am just going to make one comment to your post with your above statement
Your salvation does no come by your works .... but by faith in the One who has already paid the price
You cannot save yourself by your desire and experience of being persecuted
Whether you are persecuted or not makes no difference .... some are .... and some are not
You have been sold a persecution complex mentality and this is not a good thing for you
This teaching is binding upon you to the extent that you must keep certain hand picked laws required by your religion affiliation ... and you are told that you must suffer persecution for your own purification
The Lord's sacrifice has set a man free to believe in Him for the man's salvation .... it appears to me that you are in some sort of bondage
So I see you desiring to enter the tribulation of His wrath and judgment that is coming when He has promised to keep you from the same .... and that you must prove your salvation by doing so
Is there something wrong with this picture?
And by the way, I am in no way a "complacent" Christian .... far from it .... do I sound like one?
You call the Lord's promise to keep a saved man from His unprecedented wrath and judgment that is coming upon a world of unbelief a .... "golden ticket" ....... are you mocking Him?
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