Divine Challenge: Why the scriptures include puzzles, hyperbole, and intentional difficultues

Hoshiyya

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"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."
Matthew 7:18

This statement, as it appears in English, is puzzling to say the least.

Not only is this a classical example of Yeshua using hyperbole, but it just goes so far into the realm of hyperbole as to contradict nature and thus the comparison becomes literally untrue.

1a.

I will first demonstrate why the statement spoken in Matthew 7:18 cannot be accepted as literal truth as it appears to us in English. I will then correlate this to a larger scriptural phenomenon.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit

A good tree CAN bear bad fruit. It happens VERY frequently.

As a natural truth, good trees bear bad fruit every single year. As a statement on people, it also cannot be literally true, as good trees (saints) can bear bad fruit (sins).

In fact, another verse of scripture says "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:10).

Jewish tradition lists about four people who were sinless, but there is a quesion of whether that is even meant literally. Four is in any case not a very high number, so it would stand to reason these four are not the ones being singled out as "good trees".

a bad tree cannot bear good fruit

This part of the statement is or at least appears to be closer to natural truth than the foregoing part of the statement.

However, the implication that a sinner is not capable of even one good deed is simply wrong. A statement like "even a broken clock is right twice a day" would be far more realistic and meaningful.

1b.

Having established that Matthew 7:18 cannot be taken literally without contradicting other parts of the Bible and the verifiable natural truths, the question becomes:

What is Yeshua really doing?
What is he teaching us, through this extreme statement?
Is he being careless?

I think it will be instructive to compare another puzzle. By comparing the already mentioned problem with another problem, we will actually solve both. In other words, we will procede to see how two wrongs will make a right.

The new problem we will consider is the apparent contradiction between the following statements:

-- "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matthew 12:30)

-- "Whoever is not against us is for us" (Luke 9:50; Mark 9:40).

So, if someone is not "for" Yeshua, are they against him?

According to Matthew, they are against him. According to Luke and Mark that is not enough; you have to be consciously against him in order to be against him.

2a.

The solution is pretty simple. Yeshua reserved the right to "contradict" himself, particularly through the use of extreme hyperbole. And that is how we speak.
That is how we have always spoken.

When scripture relays the antagonistic proverb "nothing good comes out of Nazareth", scripture does NOT reactionally dissect the statement or challenge it as being hyperbole and therefore by definition inaccurate. Rather, scripture completely accepts hyperbole as a valid tool.

Without hyperbole and the right to be inaccurate, there really is no communication.
Try speaking 100% accurately for one day, or even just one hour. I bet you can't do it.

Speaking of the sun, I already failed myself, since I used a non-literal phrase. I mean, I didn't literally place a bet. Nor did I speak of the sun.

2b.

Yeshua was much older than Abraham. He had seen the world turn, he knew how people spoke. His mastery of language was such that he created some of the most quotable phrases and proverbs in history. But he also challenged us.

I will go so far as to say I believe Yeshua purposefully issued challenges in the form of making statements that, if taken literally, would be contradictions. He is challenging us to figure it out, to harmonize it. By the same token, we have four gospels with some apparent contradictions. This is not a mistake. This is not a mistake on God's part, nor a human mistake.

God does this all the time. He intentionally confounds people:

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
Proverbs 25:2

Explaining his own rhetoric by referencing Isa. 6:9, Yeshua says:

And the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled in them, which says, 'Hearing you will hear, and you will not understand, and seeing you will see and you will not know.
Matthew 13:14

Those who find a contradiction and (I) consider the Bible's validity broken or (II) deny that it even is a contradiction, and thus preventing the contradiction from receiving its intended solution, are both taking the wrong route. These are by extension the people Yeshua is referring to here.

For example, when scripture tells us that David slew Goliath and later tells us that Goliath was slain by Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19), there are three possible responses.

I) Take it as proof that scripture is man-made and/or corrupted.

II) Deny the contradiction. This basically means coming up with a false solution, one that denies us the lesson that God is trying to teach us. Most Bible translations have done this relative to 2 Samuel 21:19, by inserting the word "brother" into the text, and by dividing another word into two words, thus changing the text into a story about a guy who kills Goliath's brother.

III) Accepting the contradiction as intentional, as a challenge, and hence not a "true" contradiction; and therefore resolving or trying to resolve it using Biblical logic. The actual explanation is, very simply, that Elhanan is just another name for David. No need to insert the word "brother" into the text.

[In fact, this particular example is a sad one. The answer is so plain, yet the Bible translators all miss it. Elhanan is even specifically described as the son of a Bethlehemite. Well guess what? Jesse, father of David, is specifically called a Bethelehemite multiple times in scripture, eg. 1 Samuel 16:1.]

2c.

In conclusion, both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament contain rhetoric that is non-literal (without being symbolic). Scriptures can often be hyperbolic, which is a fundamental part of human communication, but furthermore, the scriptures are intentionally challenging.

Yeshua goes out of his way to create these challenges, and those who recorded his words apparently picked up on this. The writers of the gospels could have harmonized things and removed contradictions (whether it be internal contradictions or contradiction between gospels) but apparently they realized what God was doing...

...UNLIKE our translators, which prefer to add to the text rather than interpret what God has presented to us; and UNLIKE the skeptics, which dismiss every divine challenge as a mistake on God's part.
 
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Lulav

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Long post, but I'll attempt to answer to what comes to mind in the first part at least.

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."
Matthew 7:18

This statement, as it appears in English, is puzzling to say the least.
I don't think I've ever been puzzled when reading that. It makes perfect sense to me, especially when you use the foundation of the first mention of trees in Genesis.

Not only is this a classical example of Yeshua using hyperbole, but it just goes so far into the realm of hyperbole as to contradict nature and thus the comparison becomes literally untrue.
I don't see how Yeshua, being part of the creation would teach against it.

1a.

I will first demonstrate why the statement spoken in Matthew 7:18 cannot be accepted as literal truth as it appears to us in English. I will then correlate this to a larger scriptural phenomenon.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit

A good tree CAN bear bad fruit. It happens VERY frequently.

No, I can't agree with that. I tree that G-d created was proclaimed 'good' in the beginning. Now of course many things can come into play to make the fruit bad. Basics like, No rain, poor soil, pest infestation, things of that sort. However the fundamental parts, like it's DNA still remain 'good'. The fruit was corrupted in some manner but the tree remains good if it comes after it's own kind. ;)

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
As a natural truth, good trees bear bad fruit every single year. As a statement on people, it also cannot be literally true, as good trees (saints) can bear bad fruit (sins).
As I said above, a 'bad' fruit has to have outside influence for the fruit to become 'bad', but inherently if it is from what G-d created it is good.
Let me draw your attention to the context.

The Pharisees saw his healing power and gave credit to HaSatan for it. He was speaking to them in this context. Where he says:

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
It was about the calling to repentance and to the kingdom, of gathering the Children to the father, of cleansing them as they were attacked by the evil one knowing that his time was short. To anyone who tried to prevent this, it was as Yeshua said to Peter, 'get thee behind me Satan', for it was the enemy preventing what needed to happen. So those who didn't try to bring in the sheep, but instead to scatter them was working against the kingdom. The Holy Spirit calls and anyone trying to stop that will not be forgiven.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Now he tells the Pharisees, the teachers of the people:

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.​
So how do you make the tree good? You need to return it to it's original state. That is what Yeshua came to do, the healings, the cleansings, he was making them 'whole' or 'good trees'. This is the promised Kingdom of G-d to return mankind back to the clean, 'good trees' in his garden.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Men who try to stop the kingdom or the return to the garden will need to give an account of why they fought against G-d. Against the Holy Spirit to do this. This is the true enemy of the kingdom to not allow people to be made whole.

Remember: Suffer the little children to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven? I think he was speaking in this frame of understanding.

In fact, another verse of scripture says "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:10).
Now here I have to say I've read that and found the reference to be different.

It was taken from Psalm 14 which reads:

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

There are none of these 'fools' who have done good because they don't believe in G-d and have sinned against him.

Jewish tradition lists about four people who were sinless, but there is a quesion of whether that is even meant literally. Four is in any case not a very high number, so it would stand to reason these four are not the ones being singled out as "good trees".

Good trees are those that are born above. This being born from above is a regeneration from the fall.

a bad tree cannot bear good fruit
This part of the statement is or at least appears to be closer to natural truth than the foregoing part of the statement.

However, the implication that a sinner is not capable of even one good deed is simply wrong. A statement like "even a broken clock is right twice a day" would be far more realistic and meaningful.
A bad tree would have to be, following the Genesis foundation, one which has been corrupted. Now the first time a tree was corrupted was when Eve and then Adam ate of the forbidden tree. Whatever that was, changed them and G-d has been trying to redeem them ever since. (ongoing not saying that Yeshua isn't the redemption). So what Yeshua came to do was to bring us that were originally good, back to that state. Now there are those who are 'bad seeds' meaning that the seed that created them was not 'good'.

Now if we look at the parable of the wheat and tares we may see what he was speaking about more thoroughly. The study of the dna of both would show more what he was talking about but suffice it to say what looks the same on the outside does not mean it is the same on the inside.

1b.

Having established that Matthew 7:18 cannot be taken literally without contradicting other parts of the Bible and the verifiable natural truths, the question becomes:

What is Yeshua really doing?
What is he teaching us, through this extreme statement?
Is he being careless?

I think it will be instructive to compare another puzzle. By comparing the already mentioned problem with another problem, we will actually solve both. In other words, we will procede to see how two wrongs will make a right.

I don't see it as extreme, he was talking to a specific group and concentrating on their deeds. I do not think this is a general teaching to the people.

The new problem we will consider is the apparent contradiction between the following statements:

-- "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matthew 12:30)

-- "Whoever is not against us is for us" (Luke 9:50; Mark 9:40).

So, if someone is not "for" Yeshua, are they against him?

According to Matthew, they are against him. According to Luke and Mark that is not enough; you have to be consciously against him in order to be against him.

It depends on if you are a good seed or bad seed. Back to Genesis, it all began there and everything should be viewed within the light of that.
2a.

The solution is pretty simple. Yeshua reserved the right to "contradict" himself, particularly through the use of extreme hyperbole. And that is how we speak.
That is how we have always spoken.

When scripture relays the antagonistic proverb "nothing good comes out of Nazareth", scripture does NOT reactionally dissect the statement or challenge it as being hyperbole and therefore by definition inaccurate. Rather, scripture completely accepts hyperbole as a valid tool.
A proverb and a truth I see as two different things. Nathaniel replied that way because there was nothing in the Scriptures about the Messiah coming from the Galilee and Nazareth was there. They didn't know he was born in Bethlehem. So the 'good' was specifically speaking of the Messiah, 'the one Moses wrote about', it was not speaking of everyone who lived there not being a good person.
 
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visionary

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I believe God sent His Words in code because we are in the middle of the battle field and in the midst of the battle of our lives. He is sending His message of the battle plan of redemption, salvation, victory, for us to read and understand, but not for the enemy. That is also why it takes His Holy Spirit to decipher it for us.

Good generals don't reveal everything to their soldiers, just what they need to win the battle. Good generals do not allow the battle strategies get into the enemies hands, so it is often guarded, coded, and "for your eyes only" kept secret.
 
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gadar perets

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II) Deny the contradiction. This basically means coming up with a false solution, one that denies us the lesson that God is trying to teach us. Most Bible translations have done this relative to 2 Samuel 21:19, by inserting the word "brother" into the text, and by dividing another word into two words, thus changing the text into a story about a guy who kills Goliath's brother.

III) Accepting the contradiction as intentional, as a challenge, and hence not a "true" contradiction; and therefore resolving or trying to resolve it using Biblical logic. The actual explanation is, very simply, that Elhanan is just another name for David. No need to insert the word "brother" into the text.

[In fact, this particular example is a sad one. The answer is so plain, yet the Bible translators all miss it. Elhanan is even specifically described as the son of a Bethlehemite. Well guess what? Jesse, father of David, is specifically called a Bethelehemite multiple times in scripture, eg. 1 Samuel 16:1.]
The word "brother" was added in most translations because the word is found in the Hebrew and Greek texts of 1 Chronicles 20:5:

And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam.​
 
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chunkofcoal

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Hoshiyya, I want to tell you a little story. The other night I was writing in my journal; I've been having some struggles and questions, and I wrote: "I think I believed God was with me. I thought He and I used to "play puzzles" but I think as I've struggled with understanding my place - and not wanting to overstep my bounds - I questioned my experiences."

Then I came here this morning and saw the title of this thread! -what you are talking about in this thread was what I called "playing puzzles." :clap: Some things just can't possibly be a 'coincidence'!
God knows what we write in our journals!
He can use people to work His purposes, to help people, to make people understand a question.
And how awesome, and how humbling it is, that it matters to Him -that we would matter to Him. :bow:
Anyway, I just wanted to pass that on to you...! :hug:
 
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Hoshiyya

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Long post, but I'll attempt to answer to what comes to mind in the first part at least.

I don't think I've ever been puzzled when reading that. It makes perfect sense to me, especially when you use the foundation of the first mention of trees in Genesis.

I don't see how Yeshua, being part of the creation would teach against it.



No, I can't agree with that. I tree that G-d created was proclaimed 'good' in the beginning. Now of course many things can come into play to make the fruit bad. Basics like, No rain, poor soil, pest infestation, things of that sort. However the fundamental parts, like it's DNA still remain 'good'. The fruit was corrupted in some manner but the tree remains good if it comes after it's own kind. ;)


You seem to think good trees and bad trees are literal trees, and you actually take the time to talk about their DNA.

First of all, as regards literal trees, the statement is not true. Good trees DO bear bad fruit, I have seen it happen. It happens every single year. Facts are facts.

But, let's face it, the trees represent people. They are not literal trees. And that is where the issue becomes interesting.

However the verse about the trees is only one of the verses I discuss. It is really only an example.
Maybe I should have OPENED by quoting Proverbs 25:2 and my point would perhaps be clearer.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Hoshiyya, I want to tell you a little story. The other night I was writing in my journal; I've been having some struggles and questions, and I wrote: "I think I believed God was with me. I thought He and I used to "play puzzles" but I think as I've struggled with understanding my place - and not wanting to overstep my bounds - I questioned my experiences."

Then I came here this morning and saw the title of this thread! -what you are talking about in this thread was what I called "playing puzzles." :clap: Some things just can't possibly be a 'coincidence'!
God knows what we write in our journals!
He can use people to work His purposes, to help people, to make people understand a question.
And how awesome, and how humbling it is, that it matters to Him -that we would matter to Him. :bow:
Anyway, I just wanted to pass that on to you...! :hug:

God is great indeed. He is always doing amazing things and interacting with us.

And really, the meaning of our existence (namely to rejoice in Him) is something that is possible/achievable every minute of every day.
 
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Hoshiyya

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The word "brother" was added in most translations because the word is found in the Hebrew and Greek texts of 1 Chronicles 20:5:

And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam.​

Hey that may be the case. Even so it is curious the word is missing from the text, and that the name of the father is different. But I wonder if you understood the point made in Proverbs, Isaiah and the Gospels.

God issues intentional challenges. The challenges are not mistakes. The challenges are supposed to be resolved correctly, whatever the correct answer might be. There is a right and a wrong way of harmonizing verses.

My focus is on showing that the challenges are intentional, and not mistakes.

Maybe the solution you propose turns out to be the right one, that is kind of besides the point. That verse was an example. Examples are used to make points.
 
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gadar perets

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Hey that may be the case. Even so it is curious the word is missing from the text, and that the name of the father is different. But I wonder if you understood the point made in Proverbs, Isaiah and the Gospels.

God issues intentional challenges. The challenges are not mistakes. The challenges are supposed to be resolved correctly, whatever the correct answer might be. There is a right and a wrong way of harmonizing verses.

My focus is on showing that the challenges are intentional, and not mistakes.

Maybe the solution you propose turns out to be the right one, that is kind of besides the point. That verse was an example. Examples are used to make points.
Yes, I understand your points and I agree that the Almighty challenges us to search out His Word to come to the truth. Some things are indeed very puzzling and the answer can be hidden or concealed from anyone unless Yahweh gives them understanding through His Spirit. Some things that seem like puzzles are really not intentional, but have been made perplexing by man through added words, faulty translations, spurious texts, etc.
 
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visionary

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God's Word are multi-dimensional. He writes big, like using the stars to tell the story of His redemption plan. He writes small, so that we can see how He operates in studying the ways of the ant.

He has people coming to believe in Him, because they found His Word can be mathematically fascinating in the stories that come forth from studying where they lead. The study of the Words as every seventh letter, or some other combination and history comes forth in the bible codes revealings, which leads another type of people fascinated with it to believe the hand of God is in this.

IT is not just the plan reading of His Word that brings people to see Him and His Ways, it is His Holy Spirit speaking in that still small voice, opening up His Word in ways that a little here, and a little there makes sense like never before and answers the questions of the heart. Many a testimony has come from those who were once blind but now can see because of the Word spoken, the Word written, or the Word lived in another and seen.

I love it, it is alive and everywhere. We can see God is very actively involved in our lives and in the lives of those around us. Touching us, where we are at, with what we need to help us along the Way. Thank God for His puzzles, codes, parables, and stories, it keeps our curiosity peeked.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Some things that seem like puzzles are really not intentional, but have been made perplexing by man through added words, faulty translations, spurious texts, etc.

Yes, but some are His own doing, and that was a big revelation to me years ago that I still am excited about.

Christians of the "soul winning" kind would probably have a hard time accepting this truth though, as their system is all about saving many people (as many as they can) in the one window of opportunity they got, and so any intentional obfuscation of truth would make no sense to them.

For me, the concept of a narrow path and intentional covering of truth (so that only the "kings" that walk on the narrow path will dis-cover it) all have far-reaching implications about the plan of Hashem.
 
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gadar perets

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Ever wonder who the "elders" of revelation are and how they got the position?
I believe they were from among the saints of old resurrected shortly after Yeshua resurrected (Mt 27). Only Yahweh knows why they were chosen.
 
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visionary

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I believe they were from among the saints of old resurrected shortly after Yeshua resurrected (Mt 27). Only Yahweh knows why they were chosen.
I have heard it suggested that it is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Noah, Adam, Daniel, John, Peter, Paul.
 
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chunkofcoal

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"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."
Matthew 7:18

This statement, as it appears in English, is puzzling to say the least.

Not only is this a classical example of Yeshua using hyperbole, but it just goes so far into the realm of hyperbole as to contradict nature and thus the comparison becomes literally untrue.

1a.

I will first demonstrate why the statement spoken in Matthew 7:18 cannot be accepted as literal truth as it appears to us in English.

I understand that you are using these examples to make your point about 'puzzles, hyperbole and intentional difficulties' but I think Matthew 7:15-20 is a chiasm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiastic_structure

The subject is false prophets, Yeshua is comparing "grapes" and "figs" with "thorns" and "thistles".
So verse 18 means that a good tree - grapes/figs - cannot bear bad fruit - thorns/thistles; and a bad tree - thorns/thistles cannot bear good fruit - grapes/figs.

So the verse is 'literal truth'.
 
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So the contradictions are intentional to test people? Like the three accounts of Paul's conversion?
Acts 9:3-8 Paul's men were still standing and heard a voice but saw nothing.
Acts 22:6-11 Paul's men saw the light but heard nothing.
Acts 26:13-19 Paul's men fell to the ground, and Jesus tells him his mission upfront instead of sending him to learn of it in the city like in the other two accounts.
 
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