Do facts actualy point to a Creator?

SkyWriting said:

Why do we wonder what the causes are?
Becasue we know reality is cause and effect based.

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David Hume disagrees, but all we know is that some aspects or elements of reality have explanations. We don't know that they all do.

Knowing that to be correct, we must create theories on every effect that we see.

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That's just it. Not everything we see is necessarily an "effect". Is physical reality itself an effect? Not necessarily.

We can show that all results have causes.

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This is not shown. This is by definition. We wouldn't call something a "result" (or an "effect") unless we knew or assumed that it had a cause.

So there must have been a "First Cause" for all that we see.

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Or first causes. And that's assuming that the past isn't infinite and it is causes all the way down. And even if the past is finite, it may only be some of what we see, or some aspects of what we see, that have causal explanations.

Becasue of this dilemma, the "First cause" must be outside
of our current reality.

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No, it doesn't have to be. It can be the initial reality that caused its own change.

Science confirmed this with two observations:
1. Reality before the big bang cannot be known.

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Science has not confirmed this.

2. Our current reality started and will end.

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Science has not confirmed this.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

David Hume disagrees, but all we know is that some aspects or elements of reality have explanations. We don't know that they all do.



That's just it. Not everything we see is necessarily an "effect". Is physical reality itself an effect? Not necessarily.



This is not shown. This is by definition. We wouldn't call something a "result" (or an "effect") unless we knew or assumed that it had a cause.



Or first causes. And that's assuming that the past isn't infinite, and it is causes all the way down. And even if the past is finite, it may only be some of what we see, or some aspects of what we see, that have causal explanations.



No, it doesn't have to be. It can be the initial reality that caused its own change.



Science has not confirmed this.



Science has not confirmed this.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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Very true. We are inexorably tethered by our senses and our senses are very fallible as has been repeatedly demonstrated by mirages and hallucinations. One illustration of just how fragile our grasp on reality really is involves the Brains in a vat scenario where the brains are thoroughly convinced that their virtual realities constitute the real thing when they are illusions generated via minute electrics stimulation or a tampering with the their cerebral neurotransmitters.

countless intelligent creatures in the universe might all believe that their particular realities are the authentic ones while dismissing those that differ as aberrations or misperceptions..

SkyWriting said:

Most researchers have embraced the idea that all effects have causes.

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Whatever.

How did you establish that "There must be an eternal first cause"?

Davian said:

Whatever.

How did you establish that "There must be an eternal first cause"?

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I cannot comprehend the idea that we were not created by a creator. Its just hard to imagine that some lifeless creation just came to life by itself. Its also hard to comprehend that whatever was the very first thing to exist in all creation, lacked intelligence or life. Its harder to not believe in God I think.

Radrook said:

Very true. We are inexorably tethered by our senses and our senses are very fallible as has been repeatedly demonstrated by mirages and hallucinations. One illustration of just how fragile our grasp on reality really is involves the Brains in a vat scenario where the brains are thoroughly convinced that their virtual realities constitute the real thing when they are illusions generated via minute electrics stimulation or a tampering with the their cerebral neurotransmitters.

countless intelligent creatures in the universe might all believe that their particular realities are the authentic ones while dismissing those that differ as aberrations or misperceptions..

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Interesting observation.. Could you imagine if we could sense radio waves and such, and if we could sense the very atomic structure (if that's the proper term) of our bodies and all other things surrounding us? Its amazing that we see only a shadow of reality

W2L said:

Interesting observation.. Could you imagine if we could sense radio waves and such, and if we could sense the very atomic structure (if that's the proper term) of our bodies and all other things surrounding us? Its amazing that we see only a shadow of reality

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There is a short Sci Fi story written during the time when writers assumed that intelligent life might exist on Mars. The author described Martians as blind to our spectrum of light perception but sensitive to all others. Both species viewed each other as virtually blind.

During a heated conversation concerning the controversial issue, the Martian showed the Earthman exactly how Martians were perceiving the universe by having the Earthman briefly experience it himself. The Earthman emerged from the display so distraught and feeling so perceptually-deprived that he committed suicide.

Weird story but it has its point.

Radrook said:

There is a short Sci Fi story written during the time when writers assumed that intelligent life might exist on Mars. The author described Martians as blind to our spectrum of light perception but sensitive to all others. Both species viewed each other as virtually blind.

During a heated conversation concerning the controversial issue, the Martian showed the Earthman exactly how Martians were perceiving the universe by having the Earthman briefly experience it himself. The Earthman emerged from the display so distraught and feeling so deprived that he committed suicide.

Weird story but it has its point.

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Yes, interesting story. When I read your post I was struck with some kind of revelation if you will. It was strangely delightful. I just cannot believe this creation we live in. Its awesome I guess. Not just the environment but ourselves as well. I am alive. I wasn't but now I am, and I even ponder my own existence. Its awesome, I just cannot describe it. Its Life! Wow.

W2L said:

I cannot comprehend the idea that we were not created by a creator. Its just hard to imagine that some lifeless creation just came to life by itself. Its also hard to comprehend that whatever was the very first thing to exist in all creation, lacked intelligence or life. Its harder to not believe in God I think.

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The vast majority of people feel as you do.
Another large group, agnostics, cannot deny the possibility of a Creator so they say they just don't know. Most minds recoil from the thought of an uncreated universe because our senses indicate that such an idea is extremely counter-intuitive.

W2L said:

Yes, interesting story. When I read your post I was struck with some kind of revelation if you will. It was strangely delightful. I just cannot believe this creation we live in. Its awesome I guess. Not just the environment but ourselves as well. I am alive. I wasn't but now I am, and I even ponder my own existence. Its awesome, I just cannot describe it. Its Life! Wow.

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That sounds similar to how I suddenly felt when I first beheld the bundle in a blue blanket which the nurse said was my son. Seemingly out of nowhere, or from the vast darkness of non-existence this creature who had never been before suddenly was. I was overcome with an irresistible feeling that I was observing a miracle wrought by a superior intellect who had meticulously planned it all and I was never the same again.

Psalm 139:13-14New International Version (NIV)
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

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Radrook said:

The vast majority of people feel as you do.
Another large group, agnostics, cannot deny the possibility of a Creator so they say they just don't know. Most minds recoil from the thought of an uncreated universe because our senses indicate that such an idea is extremely counter-intuitive.

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I have a view that goes even beyond that. I cannot comprehend how God, or anything else for that matter, can have no beginning. Its like this, go back in your mind, and go to the very first thing that ever existed, now ask yourself this- how can it not have a beginning? How was it just always here? Some people might think that in the beginning was nothing but how does something come from nothing? Creation itself seems impossible to me, therefore I believe in God because only God can make sense of this puzzle.

I may not comprehend it, but I am so grateful that I exist. God would surely have a great thing in store for us. THis world is like a cage, and we are birds wanting to be set free

Radrook said:

That sounds similar to how I suddenly felt when I first beheld the bundle in a blue blanket which the nurse said was my son. Seemingly out of nowhere, or from the vast darkness of non-existence this creature who had never been before suddenly was. I was overcome with an irresistible feeling that I was observing a miracle wrought by a superior intellect who had meticulously planned it all and I was never the same again.

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I have no children and cannot know what that's like, but we do seem to share something regardless. All creation declares Gods glory. Psalms 19

W2L said:

I have a view that goes even beyond that. I cannot comprehend how God, or anything else for that matter, can have no beginning. Its like this, go back in your mind, and go to the very first thing that ever existed, now ask yourself this- how can it not have a beginning? How was it just always here? Some people might think that in the beginning was nothing but how does something come from nothing? Creation itself seems impossible to me, therefore I believe in God because only God can make sense of this puzzle.

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True, we cannot fathom it but accept it because to us it is the only way that these complex living machines could have appeared. Appeals to blind chance depending on millions of statistically improbable happy accidents just don't make sense to us because essentially they simply don't make any sense.

Our experiences tell us that what appears designed for a purpose has a designer who designed it for that specific purpose and that deny such an obvious thing would require that we place our reasoning abilities on permanent hold and adopt a dishonest and inconceivable blindess.

We are told that a water pump demands a designer because it is obviously designed
to pump water. Yet we are told that a much more complex pump-the human heart needed no designer.

Marvelous Design of the Human Heart
http://www.warrenapologeticscenter..../the-marvelous-design-of-the-human-heart.html

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We are told that a relatively simple camera requires a designer.
Yet the much more complex and wonderfully designed human eye, as well as all other types of animal eyes did not.

Wonderfully Design Eye
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=1412

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We are told that it is obvious that a computer needs a designer but are laughed at by atheists when we believe that the most complex computer we know of-the human brain as well as all other animal brains required a designer.

The Brain

The brain is the centre of a complex computer system more wonderful than the greatest one ever built by man. The body’s computer system computes and sends throughout the body billions of bits of information, information that controls every action, right down to the flicker of an eyelid. In most computer systems, the information is carried by wires and electronic parts. In the body, nerves are the wires that carry the information back and forth from the central nervous system. And in just one human brain there is probably more wiring, more electrical circuitry, than in all the computer systems of the world put together.1 Yes, it is a wonderful thing—this brain of ours.

https://answersingenesis.org/kids/anatomy/the-human-body/

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Evidence of Designe by God
http://www.leaderu.com/science/bishop.html

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W2L said:

I cannot comprehend the idea that we were not created by a creator. Its just hard to imagine that some lifeless creation just came to life by itself. Its also hard to comprehend that whatever was the very first thing to exist in all creation, lacked intelligence or life. Its harder to not believe in God I think.

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I can comprehend those things, so it is not harder for me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Radrook said:

There is a short Sci Fi story written during the time when writers assumed that intelligent life might exist on Mars. The author described Martians as blind to our spectrum of light perception but sensitive to all others. Both species viewed each other as virtually blind.

During a heated conversation concerning the controversial issue, the Martian showed the Earthman exactly how Martians were perceiving the universe by having the Earthman briefly experience it himself. The Earthman emerged from the display so distraught and feeling so perceptually-deprived that he committed suicide.

Weird story but it has its point.

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Sounds almost like something written by H.P. Lovecraft.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

Sounds almost like something written by H.P. Lovecraft.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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I read it many years ago in a short-story anthology and cannot recall the name of the author nor the title. But I found it very thought provoking. The idea resurfaced in one of the episodes of the most recent version of Battle Star Galactica starring James Olmos as the ship's captain. It portrayed one of the hostile machines, a Cylon which had been made to resemble humans, complaining about how now it could no longer perceive the universe in all its diverse manifestations.

W2L said:

I cannot comprehend the idea that we were not created by a creator.

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Okay. Other than people (humans) that create, I do not know what you mean by "creator".

Its just hard to imagine that some lifeless creation just came to life by itself.

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I don't imagine that myself.

Its also hard to comprehend that whatever was the very first thing to exist in all creation, lacked intelligence or life.

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I don't imagine that either. Why need it be intelligent?

Its harder to not believe in God I think.

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By "God", do you mean the character in the bible, that [allegedly] walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with using a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing, and simultaneously requires a belief that modern scientific knowledge is wildly inaccurate? Believing that to be wrong takes no effort on my part.

Back to my previous post; do you have any idea how he established that "There must be an eternal first cause"?

Radrook said:

The vast majority of people feel as you do.
Another large group, agnostics, cannot deny the possibility of a Creator so they say they just don't know. Most minds recoil from the thought of an uncreated universe because our senses indicate that such an idea is extremely counter-intuitive.

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Counter-intuitive is just another word for human bias.

W2L said:

I cannot comprehend the idea that we were not created by a creator. Its just hard to imagine that some lifeless creation just came to life by itself. Its also hard to comprehend that whatever was the very first thing to exist in all creation, lacked intelligence or life. Its harder to not believe in God I think.

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Yeah, understanding reality is hard.

So you can choose what to do... live upto the challenge and try to actually understand (and/or acknowledge ignorance for what it is).

Or you can go "easy mode" and just say "god dun it" and (pretend to) be done with it.

However, history has taught us that that isn't a good idea.

Newton also bumped into a hard problem when describing the orbital paths of the solar system. Some aspects of it, he could not express in his equations. It was too hard. So he gave up and said that god did it. Until some time later, someone else came up and fixed his equations, solving the problem.

Surprise, gods didn't have anything to do with it... Just like it turned out that gods also have nothing to do with the tides, thunder, lightning, sunrise, the variation among species, mountains, trees, stars, planets, volcano's, hurricanes, etc etc etc.......etc...

Radrook said:

That sounds similar to how I suddenly felt when I first beheld the bundle in a blue blanket which the nurse said was my son. Seemingly out of nowhere, or from the vast darkness of non-existence this creature who had never been before suddenly was. I was overcome with an irresistible feeling that I was observing a miracle wrought by a superior intellect who had meticulously planned it all and I was never the same again.

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I don't know if you were down at the "business end" when your son was born. I was when my son was born and I can tell you I wasn't thinking miracle. Seems to me a miracle would have been less... colorful...

Biology was a good enough explanation for me.