Talmid HaYarok

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Well according to the Bible a covenant is exactly what they don't have. Ishmael got the blessing, Isaac got covenant.

When Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain, the Lord established the covenant through Isaac (even though its implied that Ishmael was there).

Second, the Eqyptians of today primarily are Arabs, so of course they look like them.  ;)  The original Egyptian people were already largely gone by Yeshua's time. Egypt went through long periods of rule by Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and the original Egyptian people were eventually no longer distinguishable.

Later on Muslim warriors swept into Egypt and made it predominatly Arab (though there were already some there).
 
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I offer another perspective about Islam..

I took Comparative Religions in college and kept the book..like I keep ALL my books because I am a BOOK HOG! But seriously..check this out:
The book is called The Religious World: Communities of Faith

It says this: Islam was founded by Muhammad born around 570 C.E. Muhammad most profound moments came through the acts of solidarity meditaion and self-contemplation on Mount Hira. Out of these experiences emerged the prophetic call that was to alter daramatically Arab and world history in times to come.

During such one evening in a cave, Muhammad heard a voice. The words he heard heralded a series of revelations that were to come to him for the rest of his life. They are recorded in the Quran, which is for Muslims as faithful recording of the entire revelation of God through Muhammad, his chosen Prophet to humankind.

The basic themes of the early message were the majesty of the One, unique God: the futility of idol worship, the threat of judgment; and the neccesity of faith, compassion, and morality in human affairs. All these themes represented an attack on the materialism and idolatry prevalant to Mecca and among the Bedouins.

Muhammad drew comfort from the knowledge revealed to him about other prophets such as Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, each of whom had been persecuted, tested, and challenged by seemingly invincible forces.


I offer this to show a little of how Islam actually started... by the way, the book says the revelations started to Muhammad around 610 C.E.

Missy


 
 
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Today at 08:29 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #22

Well according to the Bible a covenant is exactly what they don't have. Ishmael got the blessing, Isaac got covenant.

When Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain, the Lord established the covenant through Isaac (even though its implied that Ishmael was there).

Second, the Eqyptians of today primarily are Arabs, so of course they look like them.  ;)  The original Egyptian people were already largely gone by Yeshua's time. Egypt went through long periods of rule by Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and the original Egyptian people were eventually no longer distinguishable.

Later on Muslim warriors swept into Egypt and made it predominatly Arab (though there were already some there).

Talmid, A covenant is defined simply in reguards to religion as this in the American heritage dictionary: God's promise to the human race. And from Easton's Bible dictionary:


2.) The word is used with reference to God's
revelation of himself in the way of promise or of favour to men. Thus God's promise to Noah after the Flood is called a covenant (Gen. 9; Jer. 33:20, "my covenant"). We have an account of God's covernant with Abraham (Gen. 17, comp. Lev. 26:42), of the covenant of the priesthood (Num. 25:12, 13; Deut. 33:9;
Neh. 13:29), and of the covenant of Sinai (Ex. 34:27, 28; Lev. 26:15), which was afterwards renewed at different times in the history of Israel (Deut. 29;Josh. 1:24; 2 Chr. 15; 23; 29; 34; Ezra 10; Neh. 9). In conformity with human custom, God's covenant is said to be confirmed with an oath (Deut. 4:31; Ps.89:3), and to be accompanied by a sign (Gen. 9; 17). Hence the covenant is
called God's "counsel," "oath," "promise" (Ps. 89:3, 4; 105:8-11; Heb. 6:13-20;Luke 1:68-75). God's covenant consists wholly in the bestowal of blessing (Isa.59:21; Jer. 31:33, 34). The term covenant is also used to designate the regular succession of day and night (Jer. 33:20), the Sabbath (Ex. 31:16), circumcision
(Gen. 17:9, 10), and in general any ordinance of God (Jer. 34:13, 14). A "covenant of salt" signifies an everlasting covenant, in the sealing or ratifying of which salt, as an emblem of perpetuity, is used (Num. 18:19; Lev. 2:13; 2 Chr. 13:5). COVENANT OF WORKS, the constitution under which Adam was placed at his creation. In this covenant, <I>(1.)</I> The contracting parties were (a)
God the moral Governor, and (b) Adam, a free moral agent, and representative of all his natural posterity (Rom. 5:12-19).

So I was not incorrect in my description of a covenant entered into God with Hagar. A covenant with God is a promise that he makes with man, sometimes these are conditional other times they are not.

And I most definitley beg to differ on what Egyptians look like.. many actually believe Cleopatra was an Egyptian woman..but she was not..so that's a misconception that doesn't fall far from the "I know what someone is based on how they look" tree.

Lastly, Yeshua was not in earth as a human at the time of Abraham, Hagar, Sarah, Ishmael and Issac..so you saying that the people didn't look like the original people during Yeshua's times is rather moot considering I was talking about WAY BEFORE his time..

And Egyptians sure had to look a little different than a Jew otherwise there would be no designation on who is what.. It's rather uneducated yes to look at someone and assume you know what they are.. but people of same ethnicities do have similar features in some respect and that is a fact.. That's how people tell what someone is in yes, and rather uneducated or lowly educated way..when I look at a Black person, I don't mistake them for white, reguardless of whether that black person is as light as Mariah Carey or as dark as Flip Wilson...

&nbsp;

Missy




&nbsp;
 
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Oh I had a question for anyone willing to answer it or give an opinion..

As I pointed out Islam was started by Muhammad..which of course he wasn't around at Ishmael's time.. So that means Ishmael's people weren't actually Muslim at least in his day.. so how do you think they worship God ? Do you think they worshipped him as the Jews did or were Ishmael's descendants pagans ?

Yeah, I know I could probably read and find out..but I would like to hear someone else's view points..

Missy
 
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Today at 08:29 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #22

Well according to the Bible a covenant is exactly what they don't have. Ishmael got the blessing, Isaac got covenant.

When Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain, the Lord established the covenant through Isaac (even though its implied that Ishmael was there).

Second, the Eqyptians of today primarily are Arabs, so of course they look like them.&nbsp; ;)&nbsp; The original Egyptian people were already largely gone by Yeshua's time. Egypt went through long periods of rule by Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and the original Egyptian people were eventually no longer distinguishable.

Later on Muslim warriors swept into Egypt and made it predominatly Arab (though there were already some there).

Un oh.. Talmid, I think I owe you and apology. I just talked to my husband about what you posted here and he (my husband) is a Old Testament buff.. And he says that it depends on how one looks at the word covenant.. He says that you are more correct than myself in the term covenant because God did indeed make a covenant with Issac but it was more of a promise/blessing that he made with Ishmael's mother..

So I am TOTALLY sorry..you are correct in that respect and I was wrong.. I asked my husband because after I thought about it, I was like, "Uh oh..Talmid does sort of make sense there..let me ask the Old Testament genius (my husband)."

So sorry..my mouth wrote a check my tail couldn't cash..YIKES!&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;:( :eek: :sigh:

Missy


&nbsp;
 
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Exactly..that's what I am trying to figure out Pant.. because if Mahammad discovered Islam they certainly weren't Muslim and as we already know the Muslim worship only on God, which is Allah..

Does anyone know biblically how Ishmael's descendants worshipped ?

Ok.. bible scholars now is your chance! HELP!

Missy
 
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Talmid HaYarok

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The Bible doesn't talk about who or what the Arabs worshipped though so you can't go into it.

According to many Arab muslims I've talked to, their people were mainly polytheists before Islam came along. The shrine in Mecca was once a place where the many idols the arab tribes worshipped were set. I'm not sure this is any different from any of the other mesopotamian peoples though, including the Jews who often strayed into Idolatry.

Its also known that there were many Christian communities in Arabia back in the day. Besides the obvious Egyptian, Persian and Assyrian churches there are a few Christian communities on the Arabian peninsula known historically.

If you go to pre-Christian times, then I have no idea myself.
 
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Ruhama

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Well there's basically no historical evidence for how the Arabs in Arabia were worshiping aside from the Muslim writings which say that (a) there were Jews and Christians (mentioned in the Qur'an), and (b) polytheism was rampant (mentioned in tradition and implied in the Qur'an). However, there really isn't proof outside the literary sources to corroborate that.

As to before Christian times, I'd have to fall back to the same answer as Talmid, although I venture a guess that they were doing the same things the pagan nations were. I mean, how many nations are mentioned in the Bible? Edom, Moab, Assyria, Persia, Egypt... they all had various practices going on that were more or less similar to one another (i.e. similar cult practices, priesthoods and pantheons, and household gods of one sort or another. Even Israel did it.&nbsp;

Though, you know something, I wonder. Was Muhammad even a descendant of Ishmael? I mean I know the Arabs hold themselves to be, but really, did Ishmael go down to Arabia and live there only? Seems to me that the Ishmaelites probably spread everywhere, not just Arabia (because back then the Middle East wasn't Arab.&nbsp; Only Arabia was).

Maybe the people from whom Islam came weren't even descendants of Abraham.
 
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Talmid HaYarok

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The Ishmaelites were all over the middle-east even before Islam. Remember the twelve great tribes of Ishmael? Heh, I'm quite sure there were more tribes of Ishmael than that (just like the Israelites too :p )

Arabs were already in Palestina, Syria, and Egypt at the time. The Arabs of Syria were giving the Romans a tought time of it just a few centuries before.
 
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