Did the Jews of Jesus' day kill our saviour or not?

JackRT said:

Jesus was born, circumcised, raised, lived and died a Jew. He died with the words of Jewish scripture on his lips. He was in every respect thoroughly a Jew.

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Yep. He followed the OC religion of Judaism, but not as the corrupt murderous Jewish rulers did.
Note the covenantle parable of the Rich Man[Jews/Rulers?] and Lazarus[Gentiles/non Jewish Israelites?]:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:19
"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

We begin by scrutinizing the description Yeshua gives us of the rich man. First, he tells us that this man was clothed in purple and fine linen. This type of clothing would not have been out of the ordinary for one of considerable wealth during this time period.
However, this attire also has symbolic meaning. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." (p. 863, "Purple").
In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." (p. 702, "Linen").
So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood.
In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah............

Luke 16:
27 They brought them in and made them stand before the Sanhedrin, where the high priest interrogated them.
28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said.
“Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us responsible for this man’s blood.”
29 But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had killed by hanging Him on a tree.
31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.


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HerbieHeadley said:

One could be an atheist and still be a jew in the time of the Christ.

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Of course. It simply made one a sinner.

HerbieHeadley said:

Could you explain what the "OC religion of Judaism" means to you or what is meant? Or would you?
Herbie

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I would think it means following the Mosaic Laws handed down to Moses from Mt Sinai in conjunction with corrupted laws and hypocritical regulations of the Jewish Priesthood during the time of Jesus.
It is only mentioned by Paul in the NT and is really too much of a complicated subject to discuss here.

Gal 1:13, 14
for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the assembly of God, and wasting it,
and I was advancing in Judaism above many equals in age in mine own race, being more abundantly zealous of my fathers' deliverances,

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

[This article is about the Jewish religion. For consideration of ethnic, historic and cultural aspects of the Jewish identity, see Jews.]

Judaism includes a wide corpus of texts, practices, theological positions, and forms of organization. Within Judaism there are a variety of movements, most of which emerged from Rabbinic Judaism, which holds that God revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah.[6] Historically, this assertion was challenged by various groups such as the Sadducees and Hellenistic Judaism during the Second Temple period; ..................

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century. Jesus is first referred to as a so-called "Jew" in the revised 18th century editions in the English language of the 14th century first translations of the New Testament into English.
The history of the origin of the word "Jew" in the English language leaves no doubt that the 18th century "Jew" is the 18th century contracted and corrupted English word for the 4th century Latin "Iudaeus" found in St. Jerome's Vulgate Edition. Of that there is no longer doubt..................

John 7:1
"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill Him."

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him." The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."

Today most people think of Jews as the people of Israel, but that is not correct. An Israelite was one who had descended from Jacob. In Jesus' time individual Jews may or may not have descended from Jacob, but they all recognized Pharisaism and not the Law of Moses. A Jew is properly a Judean.



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paul becke said: ↑
No. It seems very much the case that Christ's words, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do', would apply very much more today than it did on Golgotha.

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ewq1938 said:

lol, he was talking about the Roman soldiers not the Jews.

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I suppose that is why God allowed to sack Jerusalem in ad70?

John 11:48
If ever we should be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him and shall be coming the Romans
and they shall be taking away of us and the place/topon <5117> and the Nation.
Luke 23:
27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.
28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’
30 Then
“ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’

Reve 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover;
and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah.......................

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal...................

Thus, as our Lord had predicted, did these miserable creatures, in effect, say "to the mountains, 'Fall on us;' and to the rocks, ' Cover us." (Luke xxiii. 20.) The walls of the city being now completely in possession of the Romans, they hoisted their colours upon the towers, and burst forth into the most triumphant acclamations..........................

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished !.......

Reve 18:8
by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine/limoV <3042>; and in fire She shall be being burned,
that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

Reve 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,

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ewq1938 said:

More like the Romans were angry that the Jews rebelled against them so they got revenge.

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According to Josephus, it was those insurrections and tumults by various Jewish factions that weakened Judea and Jerusalem to fall in about 5 months.........

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

From the conquest of their country by Pompey, about sixty years B. C. the Jews had, on several occasions, manifested a refractory spirit; but after Judas the Gaulonite and Sadduc the Pharisee had taught them, that submission to the Roman assessments would pave the way to a state of abject slavery, this temper displayed itself with increasing malignity and violence.
Rebellious tumults and insurrections became fame and more frequent and alarming; and to these the mercenary exactions of Florus, the Roman governor, not a little contributed. At length Eleazer, son of the High Priest, persuaded those who officiated in the temple to reject the sacrifices of foreigners, and no longer to offer up prayers for them.
Thus an insult was thrown upon Caesar, his sacrifice rejected, and the foundation of the Roman war laid................
While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children...........
At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance........

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover;.........

Note the use of the Roman currency "Denarius" in Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat for a denarius and three choinex of barleys for a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".
[John 11:48]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius

In the Roman currency system, the denarius (plural: denarii) was a small silver coin first minted in 211 BC. The word denarius is derived from the Latin dēnī "containing ten", as its value was 10 asses; it may also be the origin of the word dinar (see that page for further discussion).


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ewq1938 said:

There is nothing in my posts to justify such an accusation.

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Even when Jesus forgives them for crucifying him, you would deprive them of His forgivenesss!

LittleLambofJesus said:

A Jew is properly a Judean.

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You first get the word Jew (Yehudi) in books like Esther. The refer to those of the Kingdom of Judah. Who was of the Kingdom of Judah? Mostly the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Benjamin, and the tribe of Levi. But there were also many refugees of the other 10 tribes which had fled from the Northern Kingdom of Israel when it was conquered by Assyria. So basically all 12 tribes plus Levi went into Babylonian captivity. Thus in Babylon, all 12 tribes plus Levi were called Jews.

The Greek word you reference is an adaptation from the Hebrew, and is much vaguer, as it mean Jew, Jewish, and Judea. But since its etymology IS from Yehudi, it is rightly translated Jew, and not Judean, since it includes those Children of Israel who lived i.e. in Galilee or in the Greek cities as well as in the province of Judea.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews (Ioudaia) from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:5

Today, with the exception of the Levi'im, including espcially the Kohanim (the priesthood), the rest the tribes have pretty much intermarried. We are ALL called Jews. Just as we were in Babylon.

• #3064.
• יְהוּדִי
• Yehudi (397c); from 3063; Jewish:—

Jew
Esther 2:5; 3:4; 5:13; 6:10; 8:7; 9:29, 31; 10:3. Jeremiah 34:9.
Jews
2 Kings 16:6; 25:25. Nehemiah 1:2; 2:16; 4:1, 2, 12; 5:1, 8, 17; 6:6; 13:23. Esther 3:6, 13; 4:3, 7, 13, 14,16; 6:13; 8:3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 9, 11, 13, 16, 17, 17; 9:1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24,24, 25, 27, 28, 30; 10:3. Jeremiah 32:12; 38:19; 40:11, 12, 15; 41:3; 44:1; 52:28, 30.
Jews'
Esther 3:10; 8:1.

ewq1938 said:

The insurrections and tumults were against the Romans which like I said, angered them so they got revenge.

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Yes.
This is an interesting prophecy.
Just as God allowed Rome to destroy apostate Jerusalem in 70ad, so also God allowed the Barbarians to conquer Rome in 476. Irony?........

Ezekiel 4:
3 Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the people of Israel.
4 “Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the people of Israel upon yourself.a]">[a] You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side.
5 I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin.
So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the people of Israel.
6 “After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the people of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.

If you add 40 yrs to the yr that Jesus started ministering [age 30] you come up with 70ad.

If you add 390 yrs from 70ad you come up with 460ad, close to the year of the fall of Rome.

http://www.ushistory.org/civ/6f.asp
In 476 C.E. Romulus, the last of the Roman emperors in the west, was overthrown by the Germanic leader Odoacer, who became the first Barbarian to rule in Rome. The order that the Roman Empire had brought to western Europe for 1000 years was no more.


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ewq1938 said:

He forgave the Romans who were crucifying him. The Jews aren't part of that context.

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He forgave those who crucified him. That would be the Romans AND the Jews.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
If you add 40 yrs to the yr that Jesus started ministering [age 30] you come up with 70ad.

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ewq1938 said:

haha....not quite.
Jesus was not alive in ad 30ad

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Really?


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ewq1938 said:

I originally thought that wasn't quite accurate but why start it at 30 and not when he died?

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Good question. I can hang with that. What year did He die?

ewq1938 said:

Nope, just the Roman's in the context of that verse. Acts continues to blame the Jews so they weren't forgiven.

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The context of the verse is that he forgave those who killed him.

Crucifixion of Jesus Christ - Preparation day for Passover 30 AD. ... Day of week: Wednesday, Gregorian calendar: 3 April, 30 AD, Jewish calendar: 14 Nisan 3790