Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

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Revealing Times

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So if you do not believe the exact Biblical account and instead believe that The creation took millions of years that is fine, but if you believe that God in any way used evolution then you will burn in hell.

The two are not the same. Hebrew Language had/has only 4000 words, the English language 400,000. The word YOM, like many Hebrew words have many, many meanings. Day, 24 hour day, warmth, Era, set period of time, it can mean Evening and Morning (or dawn and dust/beginning and ending)Lifetime, time period in General, a Division of time. It is used 38 times in the bible as Chronicles, 8 times as AGE, 8 times as FULL and 4 times as WHOLE.

Where as (BARA) means absolutely to CREATE or SELECT. So we know that God CREATED the Universe and created the Animals of all kind.

The difference is, we are not denying God created everything, even the 6000 year young earth believers, believe God created everything. They just, imho, are confused, because they see the word DAY, and don't realize it has many meanings. NOWHERE does God say animals EVOLVED by themselves, EVERYWHERE, He says he CREATED these Animals. By us not believing that, we takeaway from His Godhead. By thinking God created the universe in 13.7 billion years or 6 Days, we take away NONE OF GODS CREDIT, we both assume God created all things. That is the difference. By adhering to evolution, and pushing it, would you not say (if its a lie, and it is) that you helped propagate a lie, that is causing many a young person to NOT BELIEVE IN GOD ? I have talked to many a young person, indoctrinated into evolution, and they see no need for God, and all those who prop this up, are they not a party to Satan's work ? (Assuming as I do that Evolution is a lie of course) Do you see the harm, and why God would be angry ? God will always be angry at any and all that call people away or cause people to be confused about whom He is.

Evolution is a lie from Satan, but believing that the universe is 6000 years old or 13.7 billion yeas old, has no bearing on who created all things. Evolution say things evolved, and cause many a youth to not believe in God.

That's my take, we all have opinions, I try to use logic in all things. Not trying to be harsh, I just wish people would get off this evolution trip, there is no proof of it at all.
 
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The two are not the same. Hebrew Language had/has only 4000 words, the English language 400,000. The word YOM, like many Hebrew words have many, many meanings. Day, 24 hour day, warmth, Era, set period of time, it can mean Evening and Morning (or dawn and dust/beginning and ending)Lifetime, time period in General, a Division of time. It is used 38 times in the bible as Chronicles, 8 times as AGE, 8 times as FULL and 4 times as WHOLE.

Where as (BARA) means absolutely to CREATE or SELECT. So we know that God CREATED the Universe and created the Animals of all kind.

The difference is, we are not denying God created everything, even the 6000 year young earth believers, believe God created everything. They just, imho, are confused, because they see the word DAY, and don't realize it has many meanings. NOWHERE does God say animals EVOLVED by themselves, EVERYWHERE, He says he CREATED these Animals. By us not believing that, we takeaway from His Godhead. By thinking God created the universe in 13.7 billion years or 6 Days, we take away NONE OF GODS CREDIT, we both assume God created all things. That is the difference. By adhering to evolution, and pushing it, would you not say (if its a lie, and it is) that you helped propagate a lie, that is causing many a young person to NOT BELIEVE IN GOD ? I have talked to many a young person, indoctrinated into evolution, and they see no need for God, and all those who prop this up, are they not a party to Satan's work ? (Assuming as I do that Evolution is a lie of course) Do you see the harm, and why God would be angry ? God will always be angry at any and all that call people away or cause people to be confused about whom He is.

Evolution is a lie from Satan, but believing that the universe is 6000 years old or 13.7 billion yeas old, has no bearing on who created all things. Evolution say things evolved, and cause many a youth to not believe in God.

That's my take, we all have opinions, I try to use logic in all things. Not trying to be harsh, I just wish people would get off this evolution trip, there is no proof of it at all.

So I'm still waiting for an answer to the question--Is believing the creation story a salvation issue? I would guess that you would say no since you don' believe the story as written.

Oh, and there is plenty of proof for evolution but that isn't the topic of this thread.
 
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Revealing Times

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So I'm still waiting for an answer to the question--Is believing the creation story a salvation issue? I would guess that you would say no since you don' believe the story as written.

Oh, and there is plenty of proof for evolution but that isn't the topic of this thread.

I believe the account of Genesis as written. But it was not written in English, it was written in Hebrew. I can read the Hebrew for myself and adjudge it for myself. You seem to be insisting that the bible was written in English, NEWS FLASH.....It was not.

There is no proof of evolution, and I think that people who advocate for it will be rejected by God. I have already said that once, you must not read the posts fully. That is why I refused to repeat the answer.

Now go find a link, of any animal changing kinds. You cant do it, God stated He formed man out of Dirt, you are saying He fibbed. That's on you.
 
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stephen583

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If believing in a "literal" interpretation of Genesis is central to your salvation, I'm afraid you're in lots of trouble. Diluvial flood science was discredited as pseudo-science back in the 1850's. There is absolutely not one shred of credible scientific evidence all the dry land on earth was ever covered by a biblical flood, especially not within the last several hundred million years.

So unless your God, is a god of MYTHS, there's no way to interpret Genesis literally. It has to be an allegorical narrative. Otherwise, you might as well believe a giant turtle carried the earth on his back to save it from the flood, or the earth was created by some mythical serpent. Either of those myths would be just as credible as a literal Genesis story.
 
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stephen583

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God stated He formed man out of Dirt, you are saying He fibbed. That's on you.

Man being (formed) out of dirt, is no different than saying man was created by environmental adaptation to the earth, which is Darwinism.
 
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To me, it seems like it is.

I can't 100% know for certain though. But needless to say, I'm wary everytime I hear someone say they're Christian but come to find out they believe in evolution. It matters a lot in my opinion, whether or not it's a telltale sign if someone's saved or not I'm not sure.
If believing in a "literal" interpretation of Genesis is central to your salvation, I'm afraid you're in lots of trouble. Diluvial flood science was discredited as pseudo-science back in the 1850's. There is absolutely not one shred of credible scientific evidence all the dry land on earth was ever covered by a biblical flood, especially not within the last several hundred million years.

So unless your God, is a god of MYTHS, there's no way to interpret Genesis literally. It has to be an allegorical narrative. Otherwise, you might as well believe a giant turtle carried the earth on his back to save it from the flood, or the earth was created by some mythical serpent. Either of those myths would be just as credible as a literal Genesis story.
My God is a God of Truth and I worship Him in truth.

Tell me this. If it's not literal, which day Did God bless in the beginning? Genesis 2:3
It's clear what this verse means. God did not bless a 7th million year period or anything like that that non-creationists attempt to stretch it, claiming the original Hebrew says something different. No, He blessed the Seventh DAY. For all time, the 7th day, the day He ceased from working on, is thereon blessed and holy.
 
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stephen583

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Now go find a link, of any animal changing kinds.

Some Dinosaurs were the early predecessors of modern day BIRDS. In fact, Dinosaurs are scientifically divided into one of two major categories, Avian Dinosaurs (those sharing anatomical characteristics with modern birds, bone structure, pre-flight downy feathers, ect.), and Non-Avian Dinosaurs. I think we can agree Dinosaurs were not birds, and modern birds are not Dinosaurs either. So this would be a scientific example of a creature changing kinds.

If you want links on Avian Dinosaurs, there are hundreds of them all over the internet. There is also a ton of scientific literature about them which describes the transition form dinosaurs to modern day flying birds.
 
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stephen583

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Tell me this. If it's not literal, which day Did God bless in the beginning? Genesis 2:3

You have absolutely no way of knowing how time was measured, or reckoned by God when the universe came into existence and was created. I seriously doubt it was measured according to a solar Earth day of 24 hours, which is what you seem to be suggesting. That would be utterly ridiculous.
 
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CodyFaith

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You have absolutely no way of knowing how time was measured, or reckoned by God when the universe came into existence and was created. I seriously doubt it was measured according to a solar Earth day of 24 hours, which is what you seem to be suggesting. That would be ridiculous.
No, it was the length of a Hebrew calendar day. The Sabbath being the same time period it was back then as it is now.

You avoid what I said altogether, either because you don't want to touch it, or because your so disillusioned you can't see what I'm saying. So you believe that the day God blessed thereon was a million year period or some other really long period of time? Absolutely ridiculous.
 
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Speedwell

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It is unclear to me that "rejecting the Bible construct for the Gospel is not at all related to salvation".

Perhaps you can demonstrate/illustrate that for us.

Perhaps it is because "The Bible construct for the Gospel" is a product of your own interpretation of the Bible and not shared by many of the rest of us.
 
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I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice.

Even when posters repeat gibberish and avoid dealing with anyone but their own - world? I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm supposed to be nice.

I'm really trying. "Trying". I guess that works both ways.
 
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BobRyan

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Atheists often don't mind "admitting" to what the Bible says - they simply reject what it says. As in rejecting the virgin birth, the bodily ascension of Christ, the miracles of the bible and in this example they freely admit to what the Bible says - while rejecting it as 'truth'.

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

=======================

That is the opinion of professors not at all inclined to accept the 7 day creation week that we find in Gen 1:2-2:3 yet they can still 'read' and point to the author's intent - whether they agree with the author or not.

==================

T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)

So then (inexplicably) -- ignoring every detail in the discussion so far we get this --

Perhaps it is because "The Bible construct for the Gospel" is a product of your own interpretation of the Bible and not shared by many of the rest of us.

From someone who argues that "the Bible is wrong"???
 
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BobRyan

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But the point of this thread is not "showing how the Bible constructs justice and logic of the Gospel message on the foundation of the Creation account."

The point of this thread is whether belief in that account is a salvation issue. Yes or no?

It is unclear to me that "rejecting the Bible construct for the Gospel is not at all related to salvation".

Perhaps you can demonstrate/illustrate that for us.
 
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Revealing Times

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If believing in a "literal" interpretation of Genesis is central to your salvation, I'm afraid you're in lots of trouble. Diluvial flood science was discredited as pseudo-science back in the 1850's. There is absolutely not one shred of credible scientific evidence all the dry land on earth was ever covered by a biblical flood, especially not within the last several hundred million years.

So unless your God, is a god of MYTHS, there's no way to interpret Genesis literally. It has to be an allegorical narrative. Otherwise, you might as well believe a giant turtle carried the earth on his back to save it from the flood, or the earth was created by some mythical serpent. Either of those myths would be just as credible as a literal Genesis story.
Who disproved this in 1850 ? The same people that said the Universe was eternal ? As per the flood, we have some scientists who say there was a flood in the Black Sea area, some who say there is proof of a flood, some who deny it and one guy from MIT who says that the mountains were only like 5000 feet, and the earths crust was 10 miles, and there was subterranean oceans that were loosed and created major oceans instead of one land mass with shallow oceans.

I tend to follow what Richard Deem says, or lets just say we agree on this matter about the Great Flood like 98 percent. By posting this I will not have to waste my time writing something along these lines. Mr. Deem is always thorough.

The Genesis Flood
Why the Bible Says It Must be Local
by
Rich Deem

Many Christians maintain that the Bible says that the flood account of Genesis requires an interpretation that states that the waters of the flood covered the entire earth. If you read our English Bibles, you will probably come to this conclusion if you don't read the text too closely and if you fail to consider the rest of your Bible. Like most other Genesis stories, the flood account is found in more places than just Genesis. If you read the sidebar, you will discover that Psalm 104 directly eliminates any possibility of the flood being global (see Psalm 104-9 - Does it refer to the Original Creation or the Flood?). In order to accept a global flood, you must reject Psalm 104 and the inerrancy of the Bible. If you like to solve mysteries on your own, you might want to read the flood account first and find the biblical basis for a local flood.

The Bible's other creation passages eliminate the possibility of a global flood
The concept of a global Genesis flood can be easily eliminated from a plain reading of Psalm 104,1 which is known as the "creation psalm." Psalm 104 describes the creation of the earth in the same order as that seen in Genesis 1 (with a few more details added). It begins with an expanding universe model (reminiscent of the Big Bang) (verse 2,1 parallel to Genesis 1:1). It next describes the formation of a stable water cycle (verses 3-5,1 parallel to Genesis 1:6-8). The earth is then described as a planet completely covered with water (verse 6, parallel to Genesis 1:9). God then causes the dry land to appear (verses 7-8,1 parallel to Genesis 1:9-10). The verse that eliminates a global flood follows: "You set a boundary they [the waters] cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth." (Psalm 104:9)1 Obviously, if the waters never again covered the earth, then the flood must have been local. Psalm 104 is just one of several creation passages that indicate that God prevented the seas from covering the entire earth.2 An integration of all flood and creation passages clearly indicates that the Genesis flood was local in geographic extent.

The Bible says water covered the whole earth... Really?
When you read an English translation of the biblical account of the flood, you will undoubtedly notice many words and verses that seem to suggest that the waters covered all of planet earth.3 However, one should note that today we look at everything from a global perspective, whereas the Bible nearly always refers to local geography. You may not be able to determine this fact from our English translations, so we will look at the original Hebrew, which is the word of God. The Hebrew words which are translated as "whole earth" or "all the earth" are kol(Strong's number H3605), which means "all," and erets (Strong's number H776), which means "earth," "land," "country," or "ground."4 We don't need to look very far in Genesis (Genesis 2) before we find the Hebrew words kol erets.

  • The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole [kol] land [erets] of Havilah, where there is gold. (Genesis 2:11)
  • And the name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole [kol] land [erets] of Cush. (Genesis 2:13)
Obviously, the description of kol erets is modified by the name of the land, indicating a local area from the context. In fact, the term kol erets is nearly always used in the Old Testament to describe a local area of land, instead of our entire planet.5

The "whole earth" often refers to the people not geography
ir
However, there are many more examples of where kol erets is used without reference to any specific land, although the context clearly indicates a local area. For example, in Genesis 11 (the Tower of Babel) the text says, "the whole [kol] earth [erets] used the same language."6 We know that this reference is not really to the earth at all (and certainly not to the "whole earth"), but to the people of the earth, who all lived in one geographic location. It wasn't until later that God scattered the people over the face of the earth.7 There are many other examples of where kol erets actually refers to people rather than the geography of the "whole earth":

  • Shall not the Judge of all [kol] the earth [erets] deal justly?" (Genesis 18:25) (God judges the people of the earth, not the earth itself)
  • Now behold, today I am going the way of all [kol] the earth [erets], and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. (Joshua 23:14) (Joshua was going the way of all people in the earth, whose ultimate destiny is death.)
  • And all [kol] the people of the land [erets] entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground. (1 Samuel 14:25) (The words "the people of" are added to the English, since they are not found in the Hebrew. The actual translation would be "all the land entered the forest," obviously referring to the people and not to the land itself moving into the forest.)
  • While all [kol] the country [erets] was weeping with a loud voice, all the people passed over. (2 Samuel 15:23) (Obviously, the earth cannot weep with a loud voice.)
  • "I am going the way of all [kol] the earth [erets]. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man. (1 Kings 2:2) (David was going the way of all people in the earth, whose ultimate destiny is death.)
  • He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all [kol] the earth [erets]. (1 Chronicles 16:14) (Judgments are done against people, not the planet)
  • Sing to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Proclaim good tidings of His salvation from day to day. (1 Chronicles 16:23) (The people sing, not the planet)
  • Tremble before Him, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved. (1 Chronicles 16:30) (This does not refer to earthquakes!)
  • Let all [kol] the earth [erets] fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. (Psalm 33:8) (People, not planets, fear the Lord)
  • For the choir director. A Song. A Psalm.) Shout joyfully to God, all the earth; (Psalm 66:1) (People shout, not the earth)
  • "All the earth will worship Thee, And will sing praises to Thee; They will sing praises to Thy name." Selah. (Psalm 66:4) (People worship, not the earth)
  • Sing to the LORD a new song; Sing to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 96:1) (People sing, not the earth)
  • Worship the LORD in holy attire; Tremble before Him, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 96:9) (People worship, not the earth)
  • Shout joyfully to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]; Break forth and sing for joy and sing praises. (Psalm 98:4) (People shout, not the earth)
  • (A Psalm for Thanksgiving.) Shout joyfully to the LORD, all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 100:1) (People shout, not the earth)
  • He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all [kol] the earth [erets]. (Psalm 105:7) (Judgments are done against people, not the planet)
  • "The whole [kol] earth [erets] is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. (Isaiah 14:7) (People shout, not the earth)
The "whole earth" usually refers to local geography
Examples of where kol erets refers to a local area include the following verses:

  • "Is not the whole [kol] land [erets] before you ? Please separate from me: if to the left, then I will go to the right; or if to the right, then I will go to the left." (Genesis 13:9) (The "whole land" was only the land of Canaan)
  • And the people of all [kol] the earth [erets] came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth. (Genesis 41:57) (The people from the Americas did not go to Egypt)
  • Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant. Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all[kol] the earth [erets], nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you. (Exodus 34:10) (There would be no need to add "nor among any of the nations" if "all the earth" referred to the entire planet.)
  • 'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all [kol]through your land [erets]. (Leviticus 25:9) (The Hebrews were not required to sound a horn throughout the entire earth)
  • 'Thus for every [kol] piece [erets] of your property, you are to provide for the redemption of the land. (Leviticus 25:24) (The law does not apply only to those who own the entire earth)
  • behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all [kol] the ground [erets], then I will know that Thou wilt deliver Israel through me, as Thou hast spoken." (Judges 6:37, see also 6:39-40) (kol erets could not refer to the entire earth, since it would not be possible for Gideon to check the entire earth)
  • And Jonathan smote the garrison of the Philistines that was in Geba, and the Philistines heard of it. Then Saul blew the trumpet throughout[kol] the land [erets], saying, "Let the Hebrews hear." (1 Samuel 13:3) (Obviously, Saul could not have blown a trumpet loud enough to be heard throughout the entire earth)
  • For the battle there was spread over the whole [kol] countryside [erets], and the forest devoured more people that day than the sword devoured. (2 Samuel 18:8) (No, the battle did not take place over the entire earth.)
  • So when they had gone about through the whole [kol] land [erets], they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. (2 Samuel 24:8) (No they didn't go through the entire earth, just the lands of Palestine.)
  • And all [kol] the earth [erets] was seeking the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom which God had put in his heart. (1 Kings 10:24) (It is unlikely that the Native Americans went to see Solomon.)
  • Then the fame of David went out into all [kol] the lands [erets]; and the LORD brought the fear of him on all the nations. (1 Chronicles 14:17) (It is unlikely that the Native Americans knew about David.)
  • And David said, "My son Solomon is young and inexperienced, and the house that is to be built for the LORD shall be exceedingly magnificent, famous and glorious throughout all [kol] lands [erets]. (1 Chronicles 22:5) (The temple was famous to all the lands in the Middle East, but was destroyed before the advent of globalism.)
  • And they were bringing horses for Solomon from Egypt and from all [kol] countries [erets]. (2 Chronicles 9:28) (It is unlikely that the Chinese brought horses to Solomon)
  • Many more examples8
As can be seen above, in the majority of instances kol erets does not refer to the entire planet earth. In fact, of the 205 instance of kol erets in the Old Testament, it might refer to the entire planet just 40 times,9 and even some of those are questionable. About half of those instance occur in the books of Psalms and Isaiah. The Genesis flood narrative also uses the phrase "the face of the earth." This is the exact phrase used by Cain when he was banished by God (Genesis 4:14). Are we to think that Cain was banished to outer space? In addition, the flood narrative says that "the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth" (Genesis 7:17). If "earth" really refers to the planet, this text would imply that the ark somehow levitated above the planet. Obviously, "earth" refers to the local land on which the ark was sitting, and not to planet earth.

How could the text have more clearly indicated a global flood?
I am glad you asked! There is a Hebrew word that always refers to the entire earth or the entire inhabited earth. The word is tebel (Strong's H8398), which is found 37 times in the Old Testament. Curiously, this word is never used to describe the flood, although it is used extensively to describe the creation of the earth and the judgment of the peoples of the earth.

The Local Flood - from the Genesis text
Erets revisited
Let's look at the actual Genesis flood passage to determine if it can be interpreted from a local viewpoint. As we determined above, the word erets, often translated "earth" can also refer to the people of the earth. Is it used this way in the actual Genesis flood passage?

  • Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. (Genesis 6:11)
  • And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. (Genesis 6:12)
  • I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. (Genesis 9:13)
Genesis 6, verses 11 and 12 both tells us that the earth was corrupt, although we understand this verse to refer to the people of the earth. Likewise, in Genesis 9:13, the verse tells us that God made a covenant between Himself and the earth. However, later verses clarify that the covenant is between God and the creatures of the earth.10 The Genesis text clearly establishes (along with the New Testament11) that God's judgment of humans was universal (with the exception of Noah and his family).

Outside Genesis one (through Genesis 2:5), the entire Genesis account through the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11) specifically refers to local geography. All the place names mentioned are in the Mesopotamian flood plain. Therefore, all the instances of the word erets can and should be translated "land," instead of "earth," since it all refers to local geography. There is no reason to think that the flood account is any different from the rest of the Genesis account through chapter 11.

When "all" does not mean "all"
The flood passage uses many universal descriptions, which suggest global proportions. However, the universal text contradicts itself, if it is to be interpreted globally. For example, the Genesis text tells us that all flesh had become corrupted.12 However, the same passage tells us that Noah was a "righteous man, blameless in his time."13 It is clear from the text that "all flesh" did not actually refer to all flesh, since there was at least one exception.

Local perspective of the flood
Does the Genesis text indicate that the flood was local? If you read it carefully, you can determine that the perspective is local. Most English translations are actually interpretations that are intentionally skewed to favor a global flood interpretation. For example, Genesis 7:20 is usually translated as:

The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. (Genesis 7:20)

In reality, the Hebrew word ma‛al, translated "higher" really means "upward." So, in essence, the text is saying that the flood was 15 cubits (20 feet) deep, in total, not 15 cubits above the mountains. In addition, the Hebrew word har really refers most often to hills rather than mountains. Seebelow.

The translators of most English Bibles use the word "earth," which to us means "planet earth." However, their mistranslation can clearly be seen in the following passage:

  • Gen 8:5 And the water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible.
  • Gen 8:6 Then it came about at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made;
  • Gen 8:7 and he sent out a raven, and it flew here and there until the water was dried up from the earth.
  • Gen 8:8 Then he sent out a dove from him, to see if the water was abated from the face of the land;
  • Gen 8:9 but the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, so she returned to him into the ark; for the water was on the surface of all the earth. Then he put out his hand and took her, and brought her into the ark to himself.
We see that in the tenth month, the mountains became visible to Noah (Genesis 8:5). Some 40+ days later (Genesis 8:6), Noah sent a dove out of the ark (Genesis 8:8). However, the dove was unable to land because of all the water (Genesis 8:9). Then, the text tells us that water was "on the surface of all the earth." This is obviously a bad translation of kol erets, since we know that the water had not covered the mountains for at least 40 days. The context makes it clear that kol erets must refer to local geography and should be translated as the "all the land" or "all the ground." In fact, all our major English translations (NASB, NIV, KJV, etc.) make this same error. It is no wonder that people who read the English translation of the Bible "literally" come to the conclusion that the flood must have been global. However, it is apparent that our English "translations" of the Genesis flood text are more than just "translations," but actually interpretations (and probably incorrect ones at that).

There is another indication in the text that the flood did not cover the highest mountains. Again, from Genesis 8:

So he waited yet another seven days; and again he sent out the dove from the ark. And the dove came to him toward evening; and behold, in her beak was a freshly picked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the water was abated from the earth. (Genesis 8:10-11)

If the ark had come to rest on the top of Mount Ararat, this would be at 17,000 foot elevation. Olive trees (and every other tree) do not grow at 17,000 feet. In fact, you will not find olive trees growing much above 5,000 feet. Therefore, we know from the Bible that the ark did not come to rest on or near the top of Mount Ararat, but probably somewhere on the foothills of the mountain.

The method by which the flood ended also tells us that the flood was local. According to Genesis, the water receded and was dried by the wind.14 If the flood were global, there would be no place for the waters to recede to. Likewise, a wind would not significantly affect a global flood, further suggesting that the Genesis flood was local in extent.

Planet Earth became a desert after the flood!
Another problem for the global flood interpretation is what happened to the "earth" after the flood. Read the following verses and see if you can see why the word "earth" does not refer to the entire planet:
  • Then it came about at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made; and he sent out a raven, and it flew here and there until the water was dried up from the earth. (Genesis 8:6-7, NASB)
    After forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. (Genesis 8:6-7, NIV)
  • Now it came about in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. (Genesis 8:13a, NASB)
    By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. (Genesis 8:13a, NIV)
  • and in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry. (Genesis 8:14, NASB)
    By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry. (Genesis 8:14, NIV)
If one were to interpret these verses from a global perspective, one would have to conclude that the entire earth became a desert after the flood. Obviously this interpretation is false, so the translations must be bad. In these verses, the dryness of the earth is obviously referring to the local land area of the flood and not the entire planet earth.

New Testament perspective
What does the New Testament tell us about the flood? As mentioned previously, the New Testament tells us that the flood was universal in its judgment.11 Besides this, there is an interesting passage from 2 Peter that gives some insight into the nature of the flood:

For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the land was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

Peter, instead of just telling us that the entire planet was flooded, qualifies the verse by telling us that the "world at that time" was flooded with water. What was different about the world "at that time" compared to the world of today? At the time of the flood, all humans were in the same geographic location (the people of the world were not scattered over the earth until Genesis 11).7 Therefore, the "world at the time" was confined to the Mesopotamian plain. There would be no reason to qualify the verse if the flood were global in extent.

Early Jewish interpretation
Many Christian believe that a local flood interpretation is a recent invention of those who are trying to reconcile science with the Bible. However, the first century Jewish writer, Josephus wrote about other writers who indicated that the flood was local and that some inhabitants survived by seeking higher ground:

"Now all the writers of barbarian [Greek] histories make mention of this flood and of this ark: among whom is Berosus the Chaldean... Hieronymous the Egyptian.... Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety-sixth book, hath a particular relation about them, where he speaks thus: 'There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris, upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the Deluge were saved; and that one who was carried in an ark came on shore upon top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved. This might be the man about whom Moses, the legislator of the Jews wrote'."15

Josephus does not seek to correct their narrative. So, the idea that the flood was a local event is not just a 20th century phenomenon.

Common objections to a local flood
Why didn't God send Noah on a long trip?
If the Genesis flood were local, why didn't God just sent Noah and his family packing. Once they were out of the Mesopotamian flood plain, God could have judged the unrighteous without making Noah go to all the trouble of building a huge ark. It is true that God could have done this, although there are some good biblical reasons why He chose not to do so. Why did God make the Israelites march around Jericho for seven days prior to the wall falling down? Why did God make the Israelite look upon the bronze serpent to be healed of snake bite in the wilderness? Why did Jesus make the blind man go to the Pool of Siloam to heal his blindness? Were any of these things actually required for God to do His work? No! God could have just wiped out all the evil people in the world, as He did later to the all the Egyptians' first-born. Maybe God had good reasons for Noah to build the ark? God has a purpose for each person of faith to join Him in preaching His message. God's plan will be accomplished regardless of our participation in it. However, God gives obedient humans the privilege of participating in God's plans. Likewise, God had a plan for Noah, part of which was for him and his sons to demonstrate their commitment and perseverance to the Lord.

One will notice in the judgments that God renders, He almost always gives a warning to those who are being judged. For example, God sent angels to Sodom before it was to be destroyed,15 sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them of the judgment to come,16 and will send two prophets to warn the people of the earth of the final judgment.17 The building of the ark was a great testimony of the coming judgment, since it was preached for 100 years during the building of the ark. The New Testament states this idea directly, since it says that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness":

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Peter 2:4-5)

If God had told Noah to just migrate away from the flood area, the people would not have been warned of the impending judgment. Ultimately, they were without excuse in their rebellion against God, since the impending judgment was proclaimed to them for 100 years before it happened. Likewise, God will send two preachers for 1260 days prior to the ultimate judgment of God.17 Those who get on God's ark (Jesus Christ) will be saved from the judgment and pass from death to eternal life.

God promised no more floods like the Genesis flood
What about the Genesis 9:11 and 9:15. If the flood was local, did God lie, since floods have destroyed local areas since the Genesis flood.

"And I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." (Genesis 9:11)
and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15)

The first part of the verse is a promise not to exercise universal judgment by means of a flood, "all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood." The flood, although local in extent, was global in judgment, since all humanity lived in the same locale. It wasn't until God confused the languages (Genesis 11) that people began to spread over the earth. So, God promised to never again execute universal judgment of humans by means of a flood. The second part, "never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth" can be explained by other verses found in the Genesis flood account.

Gen 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12 And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

The passage in this instance refers to the people of the earth, since planet earth itself was not corrupt. Likewise, Genesis 9:11 is referring to the people of the earth rather than the planet itself. Ultimately, even if the flood were global, it did not "destroy the earth," but just the people on the earth. As stated above, "people" is often understood from the Hebrew word erets.

Why were birds on the ark?
If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? They could simply have flown to a nearby mountain range. Most birds (other than a few migratory birds) have a very localized territory. They would have been killed in the local flood, since they are not designed to fly long distances. Certainly archaeopteryx was not a strong flyer. Hummingbirds would drop dead in 20 minutes or less. One thing that you will notice when there is a strong rain is that birds do not fly. Flying in heavy rain is not easy. They would have sat on their perches until the water drowned them.

Why did God required Noah to take animals if the flood was local?
Some animals are indigenous only to the Mesopotamian area. More importantly, it would have taken hundreds of years longer to replace the fauna if everything had been wiped out and had to migrate back in. In addition, Noah would have had a huge problem replacing his herds.

How could the flood waters rise 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains in a local flood (Genesis 7:20)?
Didn't the flood cover the highest mountains? The Hebrew word "har," translated "mountains," occurs 649 times in the Old Testament. In 212 instances, the word is translated "hill" or "hills" or "hill country". In Genesis, it is translated "hill" in 10 out of 19 occurrences. Of course, 4 out of 9 times that it is translated as "mountain" is in the flood passage (the translators were wearing their global glasses when they did that translation!). In every instance in Genesis, the text could be translated "hill". Since no specific mountain range is mentioned in this verse, it is likely that the word refers to the hills that Noah could see.

Conclusion
This paper has shown that the Bible declares the Genesis flood to be local in extent, though universal in its judgment of humans (with the exception of Noah and his family). The evidence presented here is purely biblical, although a strong case could also be given for extra-biblical reasons. A global interpretation of the Genesis flood requires that certain non-flood-related verses of the Bible contradict each other. In addition, a global interpretation of the Genesis flood would require the Genesis text to contradict itself. The lack of global references in the book of Genesis through chapter 11 (with the exception of Genesis 1), reveals that all the early events of Genesis occurred in a small geographic area. In addition, an examination of the original Hebrew text of the Genesis flood passage demonstrates that the global wording of our English translations misrepresents the original intent of the account. Your assignment at this point is to re-read the Genesis flood textwith the words "land" or "people" (depending upon the context) substituted where for the word "earth." When you are finished, you will discover a remarkably different flood account than what you have read before.

SO, IS IT LITERAL ? YES....Our reading of the text is found wanting.
 
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Revealing Times

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Some Dinosaurs were the early predecessors of modern day BIRDS. In fact, Dinosaurs are scientifically divided into one of two major categories, Avian Dinosaurs (those sharing anatomical characteristics with modern birds, bone structure, pre-flight downy feathers, ect.), and Non-Avian Dinosaurs. I think we can agree Dinosaurs were not birds, and modern birds are not Dinosaurs either. So this would be a scientific example of a creature changing kinds.

If you want links on Avian Dinosaurs, there are hundreds of them all over the internet. There is also a ton of scientific literature about them which describes the transition form dinosaurs to modern day flying birds.
Sure thing.....That is why nobody can provide that which they can prove is an actual link, what we have is people like you saying, well this looks like a link. There are no links showing that any animal has ever changed Kinds, and here is the sad part. If evolution were true, these links would be readily apparent, it would match up like steps going to a door, but anthropologist professor Gail Kennedy of UCLA says it takes "IMAGINATION TO SEE EVOLUTION" that is a direct quote .

“The problem with those who are unable to see evolution, I think, is they don’t have imaginations,”

What you speak of is some bone some goofball professor digs out, calls it a link, only to find out its a jaw-bone to a pig later. Or they place Lucy in a St. Louis exhibition, and even though they found no hands or feet, they create a drawing and show what looks like human hands and feet. LOL, its called deception.

If you knew, really knew about this stuff, you would understand, if we had common ancestors, it would be an easy find. We wouldn't have to see people faking stuff. Its really funny.
 
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stephen583

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If you knew, really knew about this stuff, you would understand, if we had common ancestors, it would be an easy find. We wouldn't have to see people faking stuff. Its really funny.
What you speak of is some bone some goofball professor digs out, calls it a link, only to find out its a jaw-bone to a pig later.

From your ridiculous statements, it's apparent you are one of those religious fundamentalists who don't believe dinosaurs ever existed. I knew a guy like you, who wouldn't even allow the topic of dinosaurs to be discussed under his roof, because no creature that lived 100 million years ago fit into his imaginary world that was only six thousand years old. He said exactly the same thing over and over again.. all dinosaur bones are fabrications and fakes.

Unfortunately, your kids are taught science in school, they read books, they watch the Discovery Channel on television, they surf the internet and talk to friends who do not share your mythical pseudo-science view of reality.

That's why 70% of kids leave fundamentalist religions when they move out and leave home. They aren't stupid, and they know when someone is blowing smoke at them. That's what happened when this friend's kids left home for college. They quite attending the Church of the Nazarene.

There is an option to losing your children's respect, but it will take some courage and honesty... just call them up sometime and admit you were wrong.
 
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stephen583

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Who disproved this in 1850 ?

You just wasted 30 minutes of your time preaching to the choir. I already know the Genesis flood was a local regional event, (that probably took place in and around the Black Sea around 6,000, or 7,000 years ago). The whole idea of a global worldwide flood taking place during that time frame is pure FANTASY. It NEVER happened. The natural world says it didn't happen.

If every creature that survived the flood by riding it out in the ark, exited the ark in the same place and replenished the Earth from there, then there would be kangaroos in Asia and Europe, polar bears and penguins in the Mediterranean Sea, Grizzly Bears in New Zealand, and African lions in the Americas. Even African elephants and camels, are different from Asian elephants and camels... Why ? Because they evolved separately in different parts of the world, that's why.

Personally, I knew the flood story in Genesis was a local event when Noah sent out a dove, and it returned with an olive branch plucked off a tree in its' beak. Olive trees don't live under hundreds of feet of salt water. I'm sure Noah himself came to the same conclusion, which sort of explains why after the flood, he planted a vineyard and became a notorious drunk.

As for all of humanity being wiped out in the flood, except Noah's family.. I sort of doubt that happened either. Based on what science knows about genetics and genetic diseases, it's impossible for a group of people that small to have procreated and replenished the earth. Within a few generations, Noah would have been burying his last great grandson.

In fact, when God created man in his own image (Genesis 1:26), he commanded them to be fruitful and REPLENISH the earth, (Genesis 1:28). To my knowledge, the word "replenish" means to "fill up again something that was previously full and has been diminished". For me, this is the "smoking gun" statement that proves there were "other" humans before Adamic man, (homo sapien, sapiens). Creatures modern science calls "homo sapiens", "early hominids", such as Neanderthals and CroMagnon man, which were diminished and had to be REPLENISHED.

Since the Biblical flood was only a local event, the descendants of these creatures would have survived the flood as well.
 
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Speedwell

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From someone who argues that "the Bible is wrong"???
I am not someone who argues that "the Bible is wrong." It is you who thinks that "the Bible is wrong" if Genesis is something other than accurate literal history.
 
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I was going to respond to several posts, but instead am putting my OP hat on and asking that were return to the topic at hand. This thread is specifically discussing whether belief in the creation story (or stories) in Genesis is a salvation issue.

Please restrict all comments to that question.
 
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Revealing Times

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From your ridiculous statements, it's apparent you are one of those religious fundamentalists who don't believe dinosaurs ever existed. I knew a guy like you, who wouldn't even allow the topic of dinosaurs to be discussed under his roof, because no creature that lived 100 million years ago fit into his imaginary world that was only six thousand years old. He said exactly the same thing over and over again.. all dinosaur bones are fabrications and fakes.

Unfortunately, your kids are taught science in school, they read books, they watch the Discovery Channel on television, they surf the internet and talk to friends who do not share your mythical pseudo-science view of reality.

That's why 70% of kids leave fundamentalist religions when they move out and leave home. They aren't stupid, and they know when someone is blowing smoke at them. That's what happened when this friend's kids left home for college. They quite attending the Church of the Nazarene.

There is an option to losing your children's respect, but it will take some courage and honesty... just call them up sometime and admit you were wrong.
I should call you a a fibber for pretending I don't think Dinos ever existed, the guy that says the first day is 9.2 Billion years in length. You just made that up out of whole cloth, and you type does this to try and smear other people as backwards and dumb, but it don't work here bud. You little Alinsky type tactics have no effect on me, it only shows what you are about.

See, you knew a guy like me, who wouldn't discuss anything 100 Million years old.NOW...Let me quote from one of my other posts above, that you no doubt did not read or you wouldn't be making yourself look so bad. FROM POST # 55

" YOM no doubt means a set period of time, an ERA, an Evening and a Morning or beginning and ending.
1.) First Day = 9.2 Billion years, MY REASONING IS, the Second day began with the Heavens above the Earth and the Earth having water. (God divided the Waters) So 13.7 Billion years until 4.5 Billion years is an ERA (YOM/DAY) of 9.2 Billion years. BUT....Does it fit ? Is it logical ? The answer is yes, when you look at NASA's WMAP map (see post #26 to see the WMAP map), it shows EXACTLY what the Bible says, a period of Darkness for 400 million years ( Darkness was on the face of the Deep, then Light came next !! ). Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. The Earth was not formed yet, CLEAR AS DAY, and the DARKNESS came first CLEAR AS DAY, then the Light came next, CLEAR AS DAY, the Stars started forming after 400 Million years of Darkness, God, as always, is 100 percent correct."


So you should apologize for misrepresenting the facts, but your type rarely does.

correct." What you really mean is the kids are getting indoctrinated into lies and half truths. There are no links and never will be, and you will find this out on Judgment day, you will be scratching your head, I will not. Evolution is preposterous on its face, no one has proven it and never will be able to prove it, because it is a lie from the pits, via Satan. The biggest problem I see is prideful men, who in no wise can ever admit they were duped.

Again with the insults, we are stupid because we believe God and do not believe a lie. LOL. Our children are getting brainwashed into Socialism too, that may be to your liking also, but it really doesn't matter in the end, what you think is not going to change how God thinks or what the truth is. So I really don't take anything you have to say too seriously.
 
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