Time line of Yeshua's ministry

daq

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6) Daq wrote,
John 2:13 ~ Abib Passover Unleavened Bread
John 5:1-9 ~ Seventh Day Unleavened Bread, Chag-Feast, (Exodus 13:6)
John 6:4 ~ Iyyar Pesach Sheni, (one month later).
John 7:14 ~ Midst of Sukkot, (five months or 150 days later).
John 11:55 ~ Abib Passover Unleavened Bread

John 2:13 <> John 11:55 = 1 Year
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This seems to imply that from John 2:13-5:9 was only seven days. If it is referring to two different Unleavened Breads, then that is one year right there. Then, to John 11:55 would be another year making at least a two year ministry. If Daq truly believes it is only seven days between 2:13-5:9, then that is also false since that would require Yeshua to travel from Judaea to Galilee including a two day stop in Samaria.

It seems to me that this doctrine of a one year ministry is riddled with assumptions and false information.

It has been a while since this was posted and I do not often post around here anymore. However in the past you and I have had some discourse and it is clear that we are of two completely different mindsets. The things which show the above to be correct from my perspective have all been posted throughout different threads in this forum, though not recently, but around that time and even much before this post you have quoted. It is indeed seven days but one must first believe the other information that is taught by the Testimony of Yeshua. The author speaks also from the Torah as the feast mentioned in John 5:1 is the seventh day of Unleavened Bread, (which is also called a feast in Exodus 13:6). Additionally "going up to Yerushalaim" is not always what it appears to be in the surface text. The "days" also concern the daily Shabbat hour, (which is the seventh hour of every day), as expounded in John 4 with the woman at the well, (at the close of the sixth hour of the day), and the nobleman's son having been healed, (in the seventh hour). But as already suggested; such things cannot be explained to another with a completely different mindset because none of it will make any sense.
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pat34lee

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Another assumption. YHWH gave the Sabbath and, by extension, the Feasts to Israel as their possession. Therefore, it is not wrong to refer to "a Sabbath of Israel" or "a Feast of the Jews". John was writing so all his readers would understand a Feast belonging to the Jews was coming soon.

Now you're adding without a valid reason. You will not find
'feast of the Jews' in the OT anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken,
in no other book of the NT either.

Leviticus 23
2 The feasts of the Lord, these are My feasts
3 Sabbath of the Lord
4 These are the feasts of the Lord
6 the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord
 
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gadar perets

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It has been a while since this was posted and I do not often post around here anymore. However in the past you and I have had some discourse and it is clear that we are of two completely different mindsets. The things which show the above to be correct from my perspective have all been posted throughout different threads in this forum, though not recently, but around that time and even much before this post you have quoted. It is indeed seven days but one must first believe the other information that is taught by the Testimony of Yeshua. The author speaks also from the Torah as the feast mentioned in John 5:1 is the seventh day of Unleavened Bread, (which is also called a feast in Exodus 13:6). Additionally "going up to Yerushalaim" is not always what it appears to be in the surface text. The "days" also concern the daily Shabbat hour, (which is the seventh hour of every day), as expounded in John 4 with the woman at the well, (at the close of the sixth hour of the day), and the nobleman's son having been healed, (in the seventh hour). But as already suggested; such things cannot be explained to another with a completely different mindset because none of it will make any sense.
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I don't accept your "different mindset" view. All you need to do is explain how John 2:13-5:9 can be stretched out to last seven days. I explain why it can't and then you can correct me if I'm wrong.

John 2:23 covers at least one or more days in Jerusalem during the FOUB.
John 3:22 suggests another day or more in that he "tarried" there.
John 4:2-3,40 requires another three days or more.
John 4:43 requires at least another 2-3 days from Samaria to Galilee.
John 4:45 "Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast." When Yeshua gets to Galilee, he meets others who also attended the Feast and had returned. This suggests the Feast was long ended by the time Yeshua arrived.​

Seven days in between John 2:13 & 5:9 is impossible if we accept the text as written in the KJV. Perhaps another version results in a different conclusion?
 
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gadar perets

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Now you're adding without a valid reason. You will not find
'feast of the Jews' in the OT anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken,
in no other book of the NT either.

Leviticus 23
2 The feasts of the Lord, these are My feasts
3 Sabbath of the Lord
4 These are the feasts of the Lord
6 the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord
I'm "adding" nothing. I am simply giving my interpretation. We don't need to find the words "feast of the Jews" in the OT. As for the NT, it is in John 5:1 & 6:4. In John 2:13 & 11:55 we read about the "Jews' Passover". Should we delete that phrase as well since the OT calls it "YHWH's Passover"? In John 7:2 we read about the "Jews' Feast of Tabernacles". John is simply conveying the idea to possible non-Jewish readers that the Feast belonged to the Jews rather than some other nation/people.
 
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daq

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I don't accept your "different mindset" view. All you need to do is explain how John 2:13-5:9 can be stretched out to last seven days. I explain why it can't and then you can correct me if I'm wrong.

John 2:23 covers at least one or more days in Jerusalem during the FOUB.
John 3:22 suggests another day or more in that he "tarried" there.
John 4:2-3,40 requires another three days or more.
John 4:43 requires at least another 2-3 days from Samaria to Galilee.
John 4:45 "Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast." When Yeshua gets to Galilee, he meets others who also attended the Feast and had returned. This suggests the Feast was long ended by the time Yeshua arrived.​

Seven days in between John 2:13 & 5:9 is impossible if we accept the text as written in the KJV. Perhaps another version results in a different conclusion?

Why should I care what you do not accept when I already know from other conversations with you that you already do not accept what I believe? It has everything to do with overall mindset and even goes all the way back to creation. In six yamim HaShem made the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and all that is in them; and the seventh yom He ceased or rested from all His works. If you therefore say that the six yamim of creation are twenty-four hour days then you have already violated the scripture in my view because you imagine a twenty-four hour day consisting of twelve hours of darkness or night and twelve hours of daytime or light. And if you believe such a thing then you are mistakenly also promoting a cessation of rest during a twelve hour period of NIGHT between each of the yamim of creation when, in fact, Elohim did not cease or rest until the seventh yom. Thus the six yamim of creation are not twenty-four hour "days" with a day of work and a night of cessation, but rather, they are six yamim-hours of spoken Word without any pause or any darkness in between them; for Elohim at the very beginning divided the light from the darkness and the darkness He called night. Therefore the seventh hour of every day is the Shabbat of Creation; if therefore one works the seventh hour of the day then the same already violates the Shabbat of Creation in my view of what is written in the Torah. Shall I then start from the beginning and explain the entire body of what is written to you in the next post just so you can decide whether you will accept or reject my exposition of the entire volume of holy writ when I already know you will reject it? Sorry, not going to happen here, and besides, it would take at least a whole thread if not multiple threads to explain such things and would surely not be possible to explain in one or two posts in a thread such as this resurrected from so long ago. But if you are sincere then you already have my screen name and forum profile page with a pile of freely searchable posts which have already explained most all of these things.
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gadar perets

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Why should I care what you do not accept when I already know from other conversations with you that you already do not accept what I believe? It has everything to do with overall mindset and even goes all the way back to creation. In six yamim HaShem made the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and all that is in them; and the seventh yom He ceased or rested from all His works. If you therefore say that the six yamim of creation are twenty-four hour days then you have already violated the scripture in my view because you imagine a twenty-four hour day consisting of twelve hours of darkness or night and twelve hours of daytime or light. And if you believe such a thing then you are mistakenly also promoting a cessation of rest during a twelve hour period of NIGHT between each of the yamim of creation when, in fact, Elohim did not cease or rest until the seventh yom. Thus the six yamim of creation are not twenty-four hour "days" with a day of work and a night of cessation, but rather, they are six yamim-hours of spoken Word without any pause or any darkness in between them; for Elohim at the very beginning divided the light from the darkness and the darkness He called night. Therefore the seventh hour of every day is the Shabbat of Creation; if therefore one works the seventh hour of the day then the same already violates the Shabbat of Creation in my view of what is written in the Torah. Shall I then start from the beginning and explain the entire body of what is written to you in the next post just so you can decide whether you will accept or reject my exposition of the entire volume of holy writ when I already know you will reject it? Sorry, not going to happen here, and besides, it would take at least a whole thread if not multiple threads to explain such things and would surely not be possible to explain in one or two posts in a thread such as this resurrected from so long ago. But if you are sincere then you already have my screen name and forum profile page with a pile of freely searchable posts which have already explained most all of these things.
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No need to expound upon creation. All I am asking is that you expound upon the time element between John 2:13 and John 5:9. Is that too difficult to explain? Very simple. How do you get seven days in between those verses?
 
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daq

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No need to expound upon creation. All I am asking is that you expound upon the time element between John 2:13 and John 5:9. Is that too difficult to explain? Very simple. How do you get seven days in between those verses?

John 4 does not speak of two literal twenty-four hour days that Yeshua tarried there with those of the city of Shachar but rather it was two hours because that is what the context is expounding, (the woman came to draw water toward the end of the sixth hour of the day, John 4:6, and the daily Shabbat hour commences as they speak, John 4:23). But even if it does speak of two twenty-four hour days it is still not a problem in my view. Nikodemus also came to Yeshua by night somewhere around the beginning of Unleavened Bread, (the Passover of John 2). My reading of everything else is therefore not a problem because Yeshua was already at Yerushalaim, (of below), for the Passover of John 2:13-25 and that is when Nikodemus came to him by night in John 3:1-2. When Messiah therefore goes up to Yerushalaim in John 5:1 it is into Yerushalaim of above which is clear from the context which implies either a vision or something of a like supernal meaning:

John 5:1-4
1 After this there was a feast of the Yhudim; and Yeshua went up into Yerushalaim.
2 Moreover there is in the Yerushalaimim (plural, τοις ιεροσολυμοις) at the sheep-gate a washing pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Beth-Zatha, having five colonnade-piazza-porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of the feeble, blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water:
4 For an angel at an appointed time descended into the pool and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever malady he had.

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gadar perets

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John 4 does not speak of two literal twenty-four hour days that Yeshua tarried there with those of the city of Shachar but rather it was two hours because that is what the context is expounding, (the woman came to draw water toward the end of the sixth hour of the day, John 4:6, and the daily Shabbat hour commences as they speak, John 4:23). But even if it does speak of two twenty-four hour days it is still not a problem in my view. Nikodemus also came to Yeshua by night somewhere around the beginning of Unleavened Bread, (the Passover of John 2). My reading of everything else is therefore not a problem because Yeshua was already at Yerushalaim, (of below), for the Passover of John 2:13-25 and that is when Nikodemus came to him by night in John 3:1-2. When Messiah therefore goes up to Yerushalaim in John 5:1 it is into Yerushalaim of above which is clear from the context which implies either a vision or something of a like supernal meaning:

John 5:1-4
1 After this there was a feast of the Yhudim; and Yeshua went up into Yerushalaim.
2 Moreover there is in the Yerushalaimim (plural, τοις ιεροσολυμοις) at the sheep-gate a washing pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Beth-Zatha, having five colonnade-piazza-porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of the feeble, blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water:
4 For an angel at an appointed time descended into the pool and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever malady he had.

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Are you saying "days" throughout the NT are really "hours" or just in John 4?

As for John 5:1, it says "Yeshua went up into Jerusalem" because Jerusalem's elevation is much higher than where Yeshua was coming from (Galilee).

What do you do with John 4:40? How did he meet people in Galilee that saw him work miracles during Passover in Jerusalem? How many literal days do you think it took him to reach Galilee?
 
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pat34lee

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I'm "adding" nothing. I am simply giving my interpretation. We don't need to find the words "feast of the Jews" in the OT. As for the NT, it is in John 5:1 & 6:4. In John 2:13 & 11:55 we read about the "Jews' Passover". Should we delete that phrase as well since the OT calls it "YHWH's Passover"? In John 7:2 we read about the "Jews' Feast of Tabernacles".

As I said, it's in no other books. And John is wrong about the feasts.
If John is wrong, then it has been changed, or the whole book is bogus.
I don't think it's the whole book, just that someone went through it and
added and changed times to fit their 3 1/2 year theology.
 
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gadar perets

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As I said, it's in no other books. And John is wrong about the feasts.
If John is wrong, then it has been changed, or the whole book is bogus.
I don't think it's the whole book, just that someone went through it and
added and changed times to fit their 3 1/2 year theology.
The account of the wise men in Matthew 2:1-18 is only found in that book. I am not aware of any prophecies pointing to that visit nor of any parallel accounts in the other evangels. Does that mean the account is bogus and should be cut out of our Bibles?

What about the account of the two blind men that is only found in Matthew 9:27-31? This is not the same account as in Mt 20:29-34; Mark 10:46-52; or Luke 18:35-43. Should we consider this an "alleged" account and trash it?

In Matthew 13:44-50, Yeshua gave three parables that are only found in Matthew's evangel; The Buried Treasure, The Pearl of Great Price, and The Parable of the Net. More fuel for the fire?

In Matthew 17:24-27, Yeshua tells Peter to go find some money in the mouth of a fish to pay his tribute (taxes). Again, there is only one witness to this account.

Yeshua gave the Parable of the Laborers in Matthew 20:1-16 and the Parable of Two Sons in Matthew 21:28-32. Only one witness, Matthew.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins is the last example I will give. Again, only Matthew gives this parable. Yet, who would reject all these passages claiming they were added because they are not found in other books? Only those who lack understanding would consider these to be bogus or added words of Yeshua and call for their removal from the Bible.

I have only superficially scanned Matthew's evangel to glean these examples. I was looking for examples where only Matthew is a witness. I'm sure many other examples can be found in other books.

If you do not have manuscript evidence that supports your claim that the passages in John were added, then it seems to me that it is you who are deleting from the Word in order to fit your 1 1/3 year view. Do you have such evidence?
 
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pat34lee

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If you do not have manuscript evidence that supports your claim that the passages in John were added, then it seems to me that it is you who are deleting from the Word in order to fit your 1 1/3 year view. Do you have such evidence?

I gave you the evidence that the verses in John are wrong.
Believe it or don't.
 
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gadar perets

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I gave you the evidence that the verses in John are wrong.
Believe it or don't.
If you are referring to Rood's video you directed me to, he said nothing about manuscript evidence. Nor can I find any evidence in this thread except for visionaries post #13 in which she showed the oldest text that has John 6:4. Please direct me to the post where you gave that evidence.
 
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pat34lee

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If you are referring to Rood's video you directed me to, he said nothing about manuscript evidence. Nor can I find any evidence in this thread except for visionaries post #13 in which she showed the oldest text that has John 6:4. Please direct me to the post where you gave that evidence.

First, it never says Yeshua attended the 'Passover' of 6:4.
He did attend the feast of 5:1.

As to why 70 weeks,

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your set-apart city, to put an end to the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover crookedness, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up a vision and prophet, and to anoint the Most Set-apart”.

http://www.creationtoeternity.com/page12.html
http://4gospels.info/

And per your previous post, it isn't about singular mentions
of anything, but items that go against scripture, like 'feast
of the Jews' is not a scriptural term, nor is it correct.
 
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gadar perets

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First, it never says Yeshua attended the 'Passover' of 6:4.
He did attend the feast of 5:1.
That is not the issue. I am asking you for textual evidence showing "feast of the Jews" in John 5:1 & 6:4 is not found in the Greek texts.

As to why 70 weeks,

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your set-apart city, to put an end to the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover crookedness, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up a vision and prophet, and to anoint the Most Set-apart”.

http://www.creationtoeternity.com/page12.html
http://4gospels.info/
http://4gospels.info/
This article is totally bogus. He entitled it "The Seventy Weeks Ministry of Yahusha the Messiah 70 Weeks Are Determined" and ends it with "70 weeks are determined, 490 days exactly!", but in between, he clearly shows the 70 "weeks" refers to 490 years, not 490 "days". He desperately wants to believe that the 70th week was really 7 days so that Yeshua would die on a Wednesday in the middle of a 7 day week, but then he turns the entire prophecy into days as well so that Yeshua's ministry would only last 70 weeks or 490 days. It is impossible to get 490 days from "from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince is seven weeks and sixty two weeks". Since the first 69 weeks are years (as even he shows in this article), the last week is a year as well. This article is not good scholarship, but wishful thinking.

Then, he blames the translators for getting John 6:4 wrong by using using "Passover" rather than "Trumpets". The Greek texts use " πασχα" (Passover), not "σαλπιγγων" (Trumpets). He provides no textual evidence to show "Passover" is incorrect. That's his way of getting rid of one Passover. Your way of getting rid of one Passover is to say John 6:4 doesn't even belong in our Bibles. Yet, you do not provide textual evidence either.

I admonish you to re-examine the supposed "facts" concerning a 70 week ministry of Messiah.
 
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pat34lee

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That is not the issue. I am asking you for textual evidence showing "feast of the Jews" in John 5:1 & 6:4 is not found in the Greek texts.
I admonish you to re-examine the supposed "facts" concerning a 70 week ministry of Messiah.

We don't have the oldest (Hebrew) manuscripts of the NT.
I am settled in my mind that the 70 week ministry of Yeshua
is correct. 3.5 years just doesn't fit the scripture. Plus, the
actions of the disciples at the crucifixion and after are more
in line with a year of training, not over 3 years of living and
travelling with Yeshua.
 
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gadar perets

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We don't have the oldest (Hebrew) manuscripts of the NT.
I am settled in my mind that the 70 week ministry of Yeshua
is correct. 3.5 years just doesn't fit the scripture. Plus, the
actions of the disciples at the crucifixion and after are more
in line with a year of training, not over 3 years of living and
travelling with Yeshua.
You can believe whatever you want, but you have no right to accuse John's Gospel of being changed without textual evidence. All that does is undermine people's faith in the accuracy of the book. Since there is no textual evidence of alteration concerning the Passover passages of John, then three Passovers would yield at least a two year ministry. You can also believe Yeshua had a seventy week ministry, but you cannot use Daniel's prophecy to support that since it deals with 490 years, not 490 days.
 
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visionary

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If you've taken any foreign language, you know that any word can be translated 10 ways, and the absolute permutation of having 10x10x10x10x10x10x10 meanings to a 7-word sentence means that there is just too much risk to say we have some authority in our translation.
 
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Every Greek New Testament you could find in the textbook section of a theology university had footnotes for the various manuscripts, which often had considerable sections that weren't in our English Bible.
I did not say John's Gospel does not have alterations. If the extant texts differ from our English Bibles, then we should rightfully call attention to it. If they don't differ, then we have no right to make such accusations against the veracity of what is written.
 
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visionary

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I did not say John's Gospel does not have alterations. If the extant texts differ from our English Bibles, then we should rightfully call attention to it. If they don't differ, then we have no right to make such accusations against the veracity of what is written.
And then we are back to Hebrew mindset was not involved in the translations of Hebrew to Greek. All the Greek texts are from after the apostles were dead. The Greek texts do not come from Israel but from Turkey and beyond.
 
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