Loss of Salvation Question

Thursday said:

We all agree that we are a saved by grace, but grace enables cooperation with God's will.

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The only cooperation is to accept salvation by faith. No works.

Thei bible does not teach that we are saved by faith alone. Paul tells us that we are not saved by works of the Jewish Law. We all agree with this.

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No, we do not all agree on this. We ARE saved by faith alone. Because Paul taught it.

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2

There is no context to support the notion that Paul was only speaking about the works of the Jewish Law. In fact, the epistle to the Ephesians was to Gentiles, who never followed the Law. The Law wasn't even relevant to them.

You seem to think we can be saved even if we live a life disobeying the teachings of Jesus. That is not what the bible teaches.

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You seem to think that salvation requires works. The Bible does not teach that.

By what right do you ignore these crystal clear words of scripture?

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I would ask you the very same question.

Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
John 5:24 says that those who believe HAVE eternal life and will NOT come into condemnation, but have passed from death to life.
John 10:28 says that those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Your view denies these very crystal clear words of Scripture.

James 2:24
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?...24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

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The whole point of James 2 is to demonstrate your faith to others, so that they can see it. God doesn't need deeds to see one's faith. Man does.

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

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Please keep reading, where Paul then notes this:
3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin
3:10 - as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (so much for "persistence in doing good" and receiving eternal life.

And the verse that directly proves that 2:6-8 is NOT possible for anyone:
3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

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The word "reap" clearly indicates effort or work. iow, hard work reaps benefits. This verse is about eternal rewards, which are earned, unlike salvation.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.

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And we know exactly what Jesus meant by "the Father's will" from what He said in John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Matt 25
4“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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How does one become righteous? Surely NOT by their own works. But by receiving Christ's righteousness through faith in Him.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

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This is about fellowship, obviously, and not about relationship.

Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

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No one goes to heaven because they have forgiven others. What is apparently unknown in your views is the concept of fellowship forgiveness. I trust that 1 John 1 will help you out in that.

Now that I've addressed each and every verse/passage and explained what they really teach, would you return the favor.

Here are 5 passages that I am convinced teach eternal security. Since you don't believe in eternal security, please address each passage and explain exactly what they do teach.

Thanks.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Adam113 said:

Yep i definitely lost my salvation

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This totally ignores post #234. Why ignore the verses? Why not answer my questions?

I asked this:
"If this is a suggestion that one's salvation can be given away, what Scripture led to that view?"

BobRyan said:

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

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Where did Paul mention giving away one's salvation in this passage? Please don't just quote a verse or passage. Explain HOW the verse/passage supports your view.

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

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Where did Jesus mention giving away one's salvation in this passage? Please don't just quote a verse/passage. Explain HOW the verse/passage supports your view.

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

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Where do ANY of these passages mention giving away of one's salvation? Please don't just quote a verse/passage. Explain HOW the verse/passage supports your view.

When it is shown that giving away of one's salvation is mentioned in any of these passages, I will obviously have to believe that it's possible to do that.

Until then, there is no reason to believe that.

bcbsr said:

As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

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according to the doctrine of eternal judgment, every causation/infliction of harm/suffering to/on the neighbor is some detriment to (the) eternal salvation, because it will be recorded and then the record(ing) will be reproduced/played every next/future eternity i.e. with every soul successively in the course of the time's infinity, that's why important is not to frustrate salvation of others, as well as to commit ourselves to the overall salvation in the true Lord God so that we may have a better hope for salvation

Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.",

Matthew 7:1-12 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again..... Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.",

Hebrews 6:1-9 "leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

Blessings

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

FreeGrace2 said:

I asked this:
"If this is a suggestion that one's salvation can be given away, what Scripture led to that view?"

Where did Paul mention giving away one's salvation in this passage? Please don't just quote a verse or passage. Explain HOW the verse/passage supports your view.

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Everyone has free will - you have free will to claim that all the details you are glossing over in the examples above - have nothing at all to do with salvation.

Since you are not actually addressing any of the text - I assume you prefer not to talk about it.

FreeGrace2 said:

Where do ANY of these passages mention giving away of one's salvation? Please don't just quote a verse/passage. Explain HOW the verse/passage supports your view. .

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I think you miss the point. I am more than happy for you to proclaim that in your doctrinal model - you have to look at the texts above and claim they say nothing at all about salvation - and how it is lost or at risk.

I am perfectly happy with that as our point of difference.

FreeGrace2 said:

This totally ignores post #234. Why ignore the verses? Why not answer my questions?

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Are you really so sure you know what those verses (and perhaps some others) say? Do you really want to go there?

bling said:

A 16 year old is given unconditionally a nice sedan with the title signed over to him. It is a free gift he now personally owns and is very happy to have it. Prior to getting his license at 18 he develops new friends that get him into heavy drinking and he does not want to be the designated driver, so since the car is truly his he can sell it or give it away, but no one can take it from him. The fact it has a pure platinum engine worth 200 million dollars under the hood does not affect his decision, since he never looked under the hood.

The Hebrew writer uses the analogy of a birthright which like Esau did can be sold or given away, but no one could take it from him

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Then I would tell that 18 year old he never truly received that car. It was never his. Because if he had of truly received that car then the car would of never lost him.

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37-39‬ ‭ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/jhn.6.37-39.esv



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A person is free to accept or reject the gift of salvation.
I knew this fellow who said that he preferred eternal death to being deprived of the pleasures he derived from adultery and fornication.

Peace be with you.

Let's review a term of the Contract (Covenant) of Salvation (The Word of God) which Jesus Christ is issuing out.

Matthew C4
1 [a]Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2 He fasted for forty days and forty nights

Here, the Word of God is saying that when fighting against the devil and his power, the power of darkness, fasting is necessary. If God has to fast to fight against the devil, so do you.

Failure to fast is a breach of the Contract (Covenant) of Salvation (The Word of God).

God bless you.

I said this:
"This totally ignores post #234. Why ignore the verses? Why not answer my questions?"

DingDing said:

Are you really so sure you know what those verses (and perhaps some others) say? Do you really want to go there?

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Sure. Let's go there.

Radrook said:

A person is free to accept or reject the gift of salvation.

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Of course. But that's not the issue at all. The issue is about those who HAVE received the gift of salvation. Can it be lost, revoked, taken away, lost, forfeited, given away, or any other phraseology to indicate one no longer has it?

The Bible tells us that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God. It's that simple.

And there are no verses anywhere that tell us that God takes away any of His gifts.

I knew this fellow who said that he preferred eternal death to being deprived of the pleasures he derived from adultery and fornication.

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OK. Did the idiot ever believe in Christ for eternal life?

Gabriel Anton said:

Peace be with you.

Let's review a term of the Contract (Covenant) of Salvation (The Word of God) which Jesus Christ is issuing out.

Matthew C3
1 [a]Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2 He fasted for forty days and forty nights

Here, the Word of God is saying that when fighting against the devil and his power, the power of darkness, fasting is necessary. If God has to fast to fight against the devil, so do you.

Failure to fast is a breach of the Contract (Covenant) of Salvation (The Word of God).

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How is quoting Matt C3 (?) a review of the "covenant of salvation"??

So your conclusion is totally off the mark. There is NOTHING in that verse which leads to it. There is NOTHING about the temptation of Jesus by the devil that is related to the "covenant of salvation". Nothing at all.

We know how one is saved and receives salvation/eternal life. The Bible tells us.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These verses are quite clear. We are saved through faith in Christ. That's the covenant.

When one believes, God saves.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Winken said:

The dynamic equivalent embraces the whole of Christian Covenant theology. The central feature is audience / context. Romans 11:22-23 cannot, must not, contradict the infallible Truth of scripture. Interpolation, as a means of clarifying, of merging scriptural Truths as ONE Truth, presents to the reader blessed insights into comprehension of the purpose and intent of the passage, or of passages. 2 Timothy 2:15 embraces the Spiritual Key.

Interpolation
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
1 : to alter (as a text) by inserting new matter
2 : to insert between other things or parts

That's the secular definition. The Spiritual, scriptural definition is as follows:

Interpolation
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
1 : to merge (as a text) by inserting collaboratory insights
2 : to insert between a part or parts

Where or what did they fall from? The Hebrew folk, the Jews, fell away from the Abrahamic Covenant, then thereafter, the effort of God through Moses. Those who did so in the latter instance did not make it beyond the horror of the Sinai. They "fell back," apostatized (renounced, having received Grace in the Abrahamic Covenant, and having become aware of the impossibility of obeying Mosaic Law). They, having been chosen in the Abrahamic Covenant, rejected God's choice! That rejection pointed the way to Jesus, the Hebrew Messiah. They rejected Him.

Salvation by Grace through Faith was then offered to the whole of humankind through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. Were the Hebrew folk cut off forever? No! God has set aside the Jews as a people group, but never with regard to Grace through Faith for each individual person, Jew or Gentile. Romans 9 through 11 are Paul's lament, his heart's cry, for the Hebrew folk who continued in their rejection! He turns to the unsaved Gentiles in Acts 13:44-50 (while acknowledging that the restoration of the Hebrew folk, headquartered in Jerusalem, occupying 2.5 million square miles in the Middle East, is on the horizon). (That's my interpolation).

What happens if they fail to continue in His kindness? What are they cut off from? Who does the cutting? Why? "They" are those non-Christian Gentiles who fail prior to normal, natural death, to confess Jesus as Savior (Romans 10:8-13) and are thus removed from the sap of The Blessing, eventually their entire branch removed, cut off from Grace. Their failure results in God's "cutting," the denial of eternal life. The door totally, utterly closes on the opportunity when Jesus comes again (except for the remnant of the Jews described in The Tribulation).

The mixture of those passages specifically addressed to Christians with those specifically addressed to Jews has torn apart the simple, child-like Faith of those who confess Romans 10:8-13. They flock to Christian forums with questions like "Am I really saved? How do I know?" "But what about where it says _____________?" "I'm questioning my faith." "The Bible is so hard to understand." "I have decided to become a ____________." ......and so many, many more.

Time for evening Bible study, a small glass of orange juice (low acid), evening prayers, and bedtime.

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So, based upon this answer, you agree that one can be cut off, fall away from God's Covenant then? Because that is what your interpolation says: you yourself claim that the Hebrew people, chosen by God (they did not chose themselves) fell away and broke the Covenant of Abraham. This is in fact a correct division of the Word. God did not revoke or remove His promises, but the Hebrew people most certainly did revoke and remove themselves. St. Paul does beg them to return to the Father and come to faith in Christ...as he then also pleads with the Gentiles to come and be welcomed into God's New Covenant; he also then explains to the Gentiles who have already come to accept the gift of faith that they too, risk cutting off if they do not continue in His kindness. And here is where it appears you sway off course: you want the Scripture to mean 'non-Christian Gentiles' here, but it clearly does not; the audience is Gentiles who have already accepted Christ, again because to continue in something means that they are already 'in' as it were. And the warning from St. Paul is equally clear: if they do not continue in His kindness, they too (referring back to the same Hebrew people you rightly claimed had separated themselves from God) will be cut off.

If people could be cut off from God's Covenant with Abraham, and St. Paul tells us that we too can be cut off from the New Covenant, why should any of us try to claim otherwise? If the faith of some had already been shipwrecked, how can anyone claim this shipwrecking of faith is impossible?

God never withdraws His offer, but Scripture demonstrates clearly that we can turn away from the offer...so, those among us who read and heed these warnings from St. Paul and St. Peter understand fully that God always keeps His promises, but that we people don't always do so. We can agree that God does not take the offers of grace through faith and eternal life away, but He does expect that we enter into the New Covenant and keep it.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

Hawkiz said:

God never withdraws His offer, but Scripture demonstrates clearly that we can turn away from the offer...so, those among us who read and heed these warnings from St. Paul and St. Peter understand fully that God always keeps His promises, but that we people don't always do so.

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Why should anyone think that our salvation is based upon our keeping of any promises??

btw, saving faith does not include any promise to God. The promises are all FROM God.

He promises to save. Jn 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "

He promises to keep. John 10:28-29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

We can agree that God does not take the offers of grace through faith and eternal life away, but He does expect that we enter into the New Covenant and keep it.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

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Again, all the promises regarding salvation come FROM God. We made no promises.

Such an idea is foreign to Scripture.

If salvation is based on man keeping some promise to God, then man is saved by himself.

Gabriel Anton said:

Peace be with you.

Let's review a term of the Contract (Covenant) of Salvation (The Word of God) which Jesus Christ is issuing out.

Matthew C3
1 [a]Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2 He fasted for forty days and forty nights

Here, the Word of God is saying that when fighting against the devil and his power, the power of darkness, fasting is necessary. If God has to fast to fight against the devil, so do you.

Failure to fast is a breach of the Contract (Covenant) of Salvation (The Word of God).

God bless you.

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Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God Almighty.
But even if he had been God Almighty, it seems quaint that God almighty would need to fast in order to resist evil.
Also, which scriptures say that Christians are under strict obligation to fast in order to receive the benefits of the New Covenant?

and totally unscriptural.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why should anyone think that our salvation is based upon our keeping of any promises??

btw, saving faith does not include any promise to God. The promises are all FROM God.

He promises to save. Jn 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "



He promises to keep. John 10:28-29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."



Again, all the promises regarding salvation come FROM God. We made no promises.

Such an idea is foreign to Scripture.

If salvation is based on man keeping some promise to God, then man is saved by himself.

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Unfortunately that concept can lead to frenetic activity in order not to lose out on salvation.
I was constantly told that I could never be sure if I was going to survive Armageddon.
The more I preached and tried to please God the less likely my destruction would be.
But assuming 100% certainty in reference to our own salvation was viewed as unscriptural and presumptuous. The following scripture was frequently quoted to support that idea.

Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So from that standpoint the equation was:

No endurance = No salvation.