Why did the early church believe that the time of the return was soon?

tickingclocker

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And I find this interesting, for you yourself claimed that "all these things" could not have happened in the 1st century, Citing Matt 24:33 as proof - yet you also claim that "Near" means thousands of years, cancelling out your claim that Matt 24:33 proves they didnt happen then...

You are all over the map, so I guess I can understand your confusion, since you now admit you have no idea what Jesus meant in Matt 24:33...
I never said "thousands of years" means near. You are most likely confused. Maybe if you go back through the discussion, it will help to get a better grasp of what I was trying to get at.

Regardless, "soon" still means what JESUS meant by it, and not anyone else's interpretation. Doesn't it.
 
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Douggg

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Really?
So when God told Noah: "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7)
Those time limits are irrelevant?

There are several things in this passage that should be noted. First, this is a prophecy of judgment. Secondly, God declared when the judgment, i.e., the rain, would start. Thirdly, He stated how long the rain would last. Fourthly, God spoke this to Noah, a man trapped in time. God was very specific as to when the rain would begin and to how long it would last. God told Noah that after seven days it would rain for forty days and nights. Now, our first question regarding this passage is not how we should interpret what God said, but how would Noah interpret what God said. Would he understand that God was outside time? That is to say, the references that God made concerning when the judgment would come were to be measured by how time relates to God? Applying the futurist’s interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-9 to this passage, was God telling Noah that after 7,000 years it would begin to rain and once it started raining, it would continue for 40,000 years? Or should the plain, everyday definitions of the terms be understood? We find our answer in verse’s 10 and 12:

And it came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth. And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

Here, just a few short verses later, we have the fulfillment of that prophecy. This shows us that God meant exactly what He said to Noah. Seven days equaled seven days. Forty days and nights equaled forty days and nights.

Contrary to your opposite assertion, The timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy. Think about that for a moment. What purpose would it serve if God gave a specific prophecy of judgment to a wicked nation, telling them that He would fulfill it within a specific time frame, and warned those people of the coming judgment, if the time passages (and the whole prophecy itself for that matter) were actually for some other generation of people? What purpose would the warnings serve the nation to whom it was originally given? To be quite honest, it wouldn'’t serve any purpose at all. How would that nation interpret the character and nature of God? That is to say, how would those people view God if He swore that He would judge them at a certain time, and then He didn'’t follow through with His judgment? What would they think of God? That He can’t be trusted? That He speaks empty words and threats? That He lied?

Let’s look at a passage that has tremendous relevance to the subject at hand. In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.

In this passage the nation of Israel, like you tatteredsoul, said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant. This is exactly what you are claiming. You say, just like Israel said, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and mis-use 2 Peter 3:8-9 as a formula to interpret prophetic time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God.

If you are correct in your opinion about the irrelevancy of prophetic time limits, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost.

Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.
Yes, time statements are definitely important and critical. Though, I don't think you have properly sorted those out - but that is a separate issue.

I will say this, I make a lot of posts at a Jewish counter (Christian) missionary forum. And the Jews there think Christians are obsessed with the end times. And although they have expectations - they don't put them on a timetable. When the timetable is left out - then there is no framework to understand the end time prophecies - which include the messiah they are expecting in Judaism (someone other than Jesus, of course).

Basically, they look at the future as a list of things the messiah is supposed to do. And not in any particular order; they say they leave that up to the messiah.

But we know better. We have a complete list of time statements in both the old and new testaments.
 
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Douggg

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(1) "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:23)."

(2) "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:28)."

Matthew 10 as a whole is the commissioning of the disciples to (1) go prepare Israel that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Which it was. But when that generation of Jews rejected Jesus, the kingdom it was taken from them, to be given to a future generation of Israel. (2) that after the crucifixion and resurrection, the disciples were to go preach the gospel of salvation to the nations. Although at the time that Jesus spoke the words in Matthew 10, it was not something the disicples would have understood at the time. It was not until after the resurrection, that Jesus opened their understanding of the things he had told them before. Luke 24:44-48.

In Acts 1, some of the disciples saw Jesus ascend to heaven. In Daniel 7 is the heaven side, as Jesus arrived to receive his kingdom.

(3) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory... Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place (Mark 13:28, 30)."

This passage is associated with parable of the fig tree - which is that when Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews 1967,
that generation will not pass away, without Jesus's return to planet earth.


.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And the Jews there think Christians are obsessed with the end times. And although they have expectations - they don't put them on a timetable. When the timetable is left out - then there is no framework to understand the end time prophecies - which include the messiah they are expecting in Judaism (someone other than Jesus, of course).

Basically, they look at the future as a list of things the messiah is supposed to do. And not in any particular order; they say they leave that up to the messiah.

But we know better. We have a complete list of time statements in both the old and new testaments.
I don't think "we know better" is correct.
Even without being 'Christian' I think some if not a lot of Jews understand Scripture BETTER than 'Christians' do. (and born again Jews even more perfectly).
Remember Yhwh ENTRUSTED SCRIPTURE to the Jews.
(That's one BIG reason many Jews have poopahed 'Christianity' for centuries - because 'Christians' have so distorted Scripture as is obvious to those to whom Yhwh Entrusted Scripture ! )

All the so-called timelines, facts, and ideas and discussions about 'end times'
are really non-important when the lives behind the discussions are not living sacrificially as Yeshua did and also not fulfilling God's Plan and Purpose in Yeshua HaMashiach, right?
 
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newlightseven

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We have to remember 1000 years is but a day with the Lord so it has only been 2 days. God is forever, his time is not our time. 2000 years is nothing for an infinite being. You also have to remember that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If we die in faith we are in his presence and our earthly life is short. We never know what day maybe our last day. Many people don't make it out of the womb, some die as kids, some as teenagers, some as young adults
 
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Douggg

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I don't think "we know better" is correct.
Even without being 'Christian' I think some if not a lot of Jews understand Scripture BETTER than 'Christians' do. (and born again Jews even more perfectly).
Remember Yhwh ENTRUSTED SCRIPTURE to the Jews.
(That's one BIG reason many Jews have poopahed 'Christianity' for centuries - because 'Christians' have so distorted Scripture as is obvious to those to whom Yhwh Entrusted Scripture ! )

All the so-called timelines, facts, and ideas and discussions about 'end times'
are really non-important when the lives behind the discussions are not living sacrificially as Yeshua did and also not fulfilling God's Plan and Purpose in Yeshua HaMashiach, right?
God trusted the Jews? Not hardly. As proof, both the northern and southern kingdoms went into captivity. It is not their scriptures, but God's. Although Jews claim it is their scriptures. It is not their scriptures.

Just as we cannot take any credit for our salvation. It is all by God. Not one speck by us. Without God, we are so messed up in our condition of sin, that we are all hopelessly lost, without God reaching down to each of us to pull us out of our state - it would be impossible to have eternal life.

We have walk with our heads low low low in the reality of God, that none of us is worthy. Fear God, reverence His Name. What is man's ethnic pride before God? Jesus said God could turn the rocks in the street into Jews.

I have discussed and argued with Jews for over ten years. And am very familiar with their beliefs and how they interpret the scriptures. And they are basically messed up. Anyone believing that Satan is just doing his job assigned to him by God - and not accepting that Satan is the enemy of their soul, is not in touch with reality.

In short, Jews (Judaism) read the scriptures they hold to be true, as Torah - instructions on how to live.

Christians read the scriptures for eternal life. He who has Christ has life; he who doesn't have Christ doesn't have life. And right now humanity is on the doorstep of eternity; the end time prophecies cannot be understated.

Jews believe that it is a given that everyone has eternal life, except for the very wicked. Which Jesus spent his ministry trying to convince them that apart from him they would die in their sins; and they in fact don't have eternal life by default.

Jews do not understand the scriptures better than Christians
- not even close - because after the resurrection, Jesus appeared to the disciples and opened their understanding of the scriptures. So if a person rejects Jesus, that person cannot understand the scriptures - because apart from Jesus who is the Truth, the Way, the Life - it is not possible. A person cannot be the purveyor of the truth - when they reject the Truth.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
 
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dfw69

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Here's the question: we have numerous statements in the NT that indicate that the early church writers believed that the time of the return would be soon. However, it's obviously been nearly 1900 years, and there's been no return. So why did they believe this? Here's a sampling of a few statements:

"29 And I say this, brothers and sisters: The time is short. So then those who have wives should be as those who have none, 30 those with tears like those not weeping, those who rejoice like those not rejoicing, those who buy like those without possessions, 31 those who use the world as though they were not using it to the full. For the present shape of this world is passing away." 1 Cor. 7:29-31 (NET)

"7 So be patient, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s return. Think of how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the ground and is patient for it until it receives the early and late rains. 8 You also be patient and strengthen your hearts, for the Lord’s return is near. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be judged. See, the judge stands before the gates! Jas. 5:7-9 (NET)

"20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all." Rev. 22:20-21 (NET)

As a matter of fact, some members of the early church apparently believed that the day of the Lord was already here:

"Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here." 2 Thess. 2:1-2 (NET)

"18 They have strayed from the truth by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith." 2 Tim. 2:18 (NET)

So, why did the early church writers believe that the time of the return was something that was going to happen soon?

I believe "soon" was added at some point in time by Christ enemies to make Christ appear a false prophet....adding a little leaven to cause men to fall from the faith or deny it as foolish because of all the inconsistency in scriptures... I believe our original call was always to endure patiently until he returns as promised
 
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Luke17:37

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I believe "soon" was added at some point in time by Christ enemies to make Christ appear a false prophet....adding a little leaven to cause men to fall from the faith or deny it as foolish because of all the inconsistency in scriptures... I believe our original call was always to endure patiently until he returns as promised

Are you sure? That's really dangerous. Jesus Christ said multiple times that He'd come quickly, even in Revelation (yet in other contexts the Lord acknowledged that it wouldn't seem quick to men and that many would reject Him while they wait, e.g., Luke 18:7-8,
2 Peter 3:3-9, Luke 17:22).

Revelation 1:1-4
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:7
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Revelation 22:12-13
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:20
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

If you think His Word has been changed, then it casts doubt on everything He says, especially if it doesn't appeal to you. That puts you in a position to judge His Word, which is foolishness. God did not grant you that authority.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Matthew 24:35
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Matthew 4:4
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When Jesus returns, He is called the Word of God (Revelation 19:13) and figuratively has a double edged sword proceeding from His mouth (Revelation 19:15), with which He uses to kill the armies who gathered to oppose Him (Revelation 19:21). He created with His Word (Genesis 1) and He'll destroy with His Word. All authority is His (Matthew 28:18). Given this, why are you not afraid to attribute part of His written Word to error added by men?
 
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dfw69

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Are you sure?
I'm pretty convinced especially with scriptures that teach a little leaven has leaven the whole lump.. And beware of the leaven of the scribes and Pharisee which is false doctrine .. And the warning of adding and taking away which to me clearly seemed to happened ... Why give such warnings if the scribes will never attempt to change his words?


That's really dangerous. Jesus Christ said multiple times that He'd come quickly, even in Revelation (yet in other contexts the Lord acknowledged that it wouldn't seem quick to men and that many would reject Him while they wait, e.g., Luke 18:7-8,
2 Peter 3:3-9, Luke 17:22).

Thus the need to endure patiently and keep the faith till the promise of eternal life is fulfilled

Revelation 1:1-4
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:7
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Revelation 22:12-13
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:20
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

If you think His Word has been changed, then it casts doubt on everything He says, especially if it doesn't appeal to you. That puts you in a position to judge His Word, which is foolishness. God did not grant you that authority.

I think it's a good thing to judge the words written in the bible.. It's our personal salvation .. My salvation is personal ... Between God and I .... I think all of us question gods words everyday seeking what is the truth ...some find it in Jesus others think it's in keeping the law...we have the authority to seek those things to be true ...seek and you shall find is our authority

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Amen yet leaven has found its way in unfortunately

Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


Matthew 24:35
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Amen heaven and earth will pass away one day,so the fulfillment of all things will take place and come to an end

For me personally it already has come to an end, pertaining to the works of law , for others, not yet

I simply await the remaining gifts already obtained by Jesus perfect obedience to the law who will in turn give me for my faith in him

This is why he was killed and rejected ...because men can't fathom the mercy of God through his beloved son ... That salvation comes from him and not in ourselves keeping the Torah ...

Matthew 4:4
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When Jesus returns, He is called the Word of God (Revelation 19:13) and figuratively has a double edged sword proceeding from His mouth (Revelation 19:15), with which He uses to kill the armies who gathered to oppose Him (Revelation 19:21). He created with His Word (Genesis 1) and He'll destroy with His Word. All authority is His (Matthew 28:18). Given this, why are you not afraid to attribute part of His written Word to error added by men?

I believe Jesus will judge men by the law of sowing and reaping, so we must love all men and judge not and condemn not by the law of Moses

as for the things that we walk in error, most will be simply corrected ... A good example of this was when John worshiped a man while in heaven several times and was simply corrected... Worshiping a man according to the law was death yet John was not judged but corrected by the mercy of God

...John was a sinner in the presence of God in heaven ... If it was possible for him to enter its possible for any of us to enter if we continue to keep the faith
 
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Achilles6129

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I think that Christ's statements to the churches in Revelation are the most interesting because he seemed to be talking to historical churches. If he is, then he's telling these historical churches that his return is going to happen while they're still on the planet. Take a look at what he says:

"5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." Rev. 2:5 (NASB)

"16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth." Rev. 2:16 (NASB)

"25 Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come." Rev. 2:25 (NASB)

"3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." Rev. 3:3 (NASB)

"11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown." Rev. 3:11 (NASB)

What is Christ talking about here?
 
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Straightshot

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My comment

The early assemblies are no different than today's divides of professing Christianity

His message is still the same and has not changed

The exact same conditions exist in the professing "church" as we speak

And once He decides the time, the true believers of His "church" will be made immortal [Revelation 3:10], and then the things "hereafter" will proceed [Revelation 1:19; 4:1] .... the coming tribulation, and beyond

Those who profess only will find themselves in the tribulation [Revelation 3:9-15]

Those with His holy spirit [oil] will go through the open door .... those without will not [Matthew 25:1-13]

He is waiting for a purpose [2 Peter 3:8-9]

And to you it will be "soon" just as it is for any man .... you just do not live that long .... it will be as soon as you die, or maybe earlier if He breaks in before

2000 years or a million is nothing to Him

And .... He is still waiting .... make no doubt about it

If He has already come as Preterism teaches .... you are in trouble

So be glad that He has waited .... otherwise .... no participation for you

If He has come already .... where are you today?

When He does intervene it will be abruptly .... suddenly, and with no prior warning .... and this present age will wrap up quickly .... 2550 days and the tribulation of His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world will consummate

Make certain that you are ready as He requires .... that you are saved by His willingness [grace] and ability to save you for eternity
 
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dfw69

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I think that Christ's statements to the churches in Revelation are the most interesting because he seemed to be talking to historical churches. If he is, then he's telling these historical churches that his return is going to happen while they're still on the planet. Take a look at what he says:

"5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." Rev. 2:5 (NASB)

"16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth." Rev. 2:16 (NASB)

"25 Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come." Rev. 2:25 (NASB)

"3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." Rev. 3:3 (NASB)

"11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown." Rev. 3:11 (NASB)

What is Christ talking about here?

Imo since Christ has not fulfilled the promises to return yet then the historical churches must remain to this day ....who are they? Beats me
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Could he be talking about some other form of return, like a spiritual return?
This is SO exciting.
Remember THIS QUESTION all the rest of this year, Yhwh Willing.
There
is SO MUCH pertinent about THIS QUESTION that CANNOT be discussed here.
That
Yhwh revealed as I read the RSV Bible through and through several times (and still do)
several decades ago.......
All plain and simple and for little children (EXCITING BEYOND IMAGINATION ! ) .... :)

(as is Yeshua's Prayer in John chapter 17 I think)
 
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Straightshot

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My comment

The assemblies then .... and the assemblies today

Who are they today? the same divides of professing Christianity .... there are many with different dogmas and teachings today, just as there were then in the first century

The Lord reviews the positives and the negatives by using the early examples of the 7 assemblies in Asia Minor .... each has particular characteristics

So He uses these assemblies to point out what He likes. and what He doesn't like

These same characteristics can be found among the divides of professing Christianity today .... nothing has changed

For example, He says in Revelation 3:10 that some of the professing "church" has kept the truth and if so He will keep them from His coming judgment upon an unbelieving world at the time .... at the same time He tells that some have not and are lukewarm .... pretenders who are not really true believers

He says that there those who claimed to be "Jews" [Israel] among the early "church" and He expresses His disdain for those who held this dogma .... we have the same today .... those who hold and teach replacement theology and that He is finished with His national people of Israel

You can find these and other offsets among the early assemblies .... and you can find them today

What must be understood is that the dating of His intervention to close His period of grace and to bring His judgment is has not been revealed .... it was not revealed in the early assemblies, and it is still not revealed today
 
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Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later timessome will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales;rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What must be understood is that the dating of His intervention to close His period of grace and to bring His judgment is not revealed .... it was not in the early assemblies, and it is still not today

It seems likely and in line with the rest of Scripture that some of the parallels
are concerning times or seasons in a persons life.
i.e. especially like a person who experiences a joyful wholesome time (a 'first love' with Yhwh in Yeshua) for weeks, months, years, or even decades,
and then
becomes ensnared in the traps (which are placed in our lives every day, even in the house of Yhwh)or snares of the enemy .

Judgment(proper, correct and used rightly) has been in the house of Yhwh for a long long time, and is necessary.
 
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precepts

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Your are wise tattered .... you have figured out that the Lord's time is not our time .... He exists in eternity .... time passing to Him is "now" .... "before Abraham was, I am"
I believe it was mentioned earlier by someone on this thread that God knows how to tell time and knows how to relate human time to human beings? God time not being man's time doesn't mean God doesn't know how to relate time to man.

The key to understanding the fact of unfulfilled prophecy still to come is documented in scripture and few look it .... or many cases it is refuted outright

This is because their taught preconceptions have eliminated the Lord's nation of Israel from any future participation as an ethnic nation .... and replaced the nation with their own religious organizations and movements

These then proceed to make speculation and insert [force fit] historical events to their liking

The Lord has set a time frame with Israel as an ensign to the nations and it is the 70 weeks of years decreed .... this is an absolute time lapse that can be calculated [Isaiah 11; Daniel 9:24-27]

.... and His future intent is clear which includes His nation apart from the Gentiles
Where do you get this stuff from? Nothing you're claiming is true. You cannot prove a single word you're saying beyond the shadow of a doubt, but I can.


The 69 weeks consummated at the Lord's cutting off in the first century ..... and the balance of the 70th week is still pending as we speak .... this time frame will include the period of Jacob's trouble, same as the coming tribulation .... 2520 days .... 7 prophetic years of 360 days each

The scoffers telling that future prophecy has already been fulfilled have been around since the early "church" and are at large today
Please! You know better than that.

You full well know the definition of "remnant," as in "the 'remnant' saved," is your stumbling block, the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that crushes the image.


The Lord has not revealed the dating of the beginning of the 70th week and is waiting to execute the same .... His reason has been given

All of the prophets are silent regarding the variable time lapse between the 69th and the 70th .... there is nothing of events upon the earth for the last 2000 years in any of their visions

Many attempt to put things in this breach, but with no accurate reading

The beginning of the 70th week could happen before this day is over

Israel has returned to the land in sufficient numbers today and surrounded by the nation's virulent enemies just as the prophetic scriptures set the staging, and He is waiting for His decision to execute the coming 70th week and beyond exactly as foretold
I shall do you one better. Where's the verse that says there's a gap between the weeks? :oldthumbsup:
 
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precepts

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Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.
And they're still saying it to this day regardless of the following verse.
 
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Achilles6129

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This is SO exciting.
Remember THIS QUESTION all the rest of this year, Yhwh Willing.
There
is SO MUCH pertinent about THIS QUESTION that CANNOT be discussed here.
That
Yhwh revealed as I read the RSV Bible through and through several times (and still do)
several decades ago.......
All plain and simple and for little children (EXCITING BEYOND IMAGINATION ! ) .... :)

(as is Yeshua's Prayer in John chapter 17 I think)
Why wouldn't we be able to discuss it on this forum?
 
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