Loss of Salvation Question

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I never denied that Jesus is God, I affirmed it in my last post.

That is not the impression I got from what you said before. So you believe the Living Word (Jesus) is uncreated and He has always existed? Are you now saying the Living Word (Jesus) is the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity?


...
 
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Gabriel Anton

Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18
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Peace be with you.

Next lesson today.

So the Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Mark state Covenant as shown previously.

The Gospel of Luke also states Covenant.

Luke C22
20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

covenant
ˈkʌv(ə)nənt/
noun
plural noun: covenants
  1. 1.
    an agreement.
    "there was a covenant between them that her name was never to be mentioned"
    synonyms: contract,compact, treaty,pact,accord, deal,bargain,settlement,concordat,protocol,entente,agreement,arrangement,understanding, pledge,promise,bond,indenture,guarantee,warrant; More
    undertaking,commitment
    "there is a landlord's covenant to repair the property"
God bless you.
 
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Gabriel Anton

Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18
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Peace be with you.

From Wiki:

Breach of contract
is a legal cause of action in which a binding agreement or bargained-for exchange is not honored by one or more of the parties to the contract by non-performance or interference with the other party's performance. If the party does not fulfill his contractual promise, or has given information to the other party that he will not perform his duty as mentioned in the contract or if by his action and conduct he seems to be unable to perform the contract, he is said to breach the contract.[1]

God bless you.
 
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Thursday

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One is free to come to their own opinion.

But it is rather weird to equate eternal reward with merit badges or cookies. Apparently you're not very impressed with what God has promised for His faithful children.

Paul is quite clear that he is speaking of eternal life. You want to deflect from this because it destroys your dogma.
 
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Thursday

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Which is WAY different than being revoked.

But since you bring it up, where in Scripture is the teaching that man can "destroy" any of God's gifts?

1 Tim 1:19
Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

2 Chron 15:2
If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you abandon Him, He will abandon you.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful....
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Paul is quite clear that he is speaking of eternal life. You want to deflect from this because it destroys your dogma.
Nonsense. Paul did teach extensively on eternal life.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 Tim 1:16 - Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Therefore, those who believe in Him HAVE eternal life, which is irrevocable.

Jesus taught the exact same thing:

John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I find it totally amazing that anyone who claims to be a believer in Jesus Christ can read these verses and not see the guarantee of eternal life.
 
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Thursday

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Nonsense. Paul did teach extensively on eternal life.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God's gifts are irrevocable, but that doesn't mean we can't reject his gifts.

What part of this is confusing to you?

2 Chron 15:2
If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you abandon Him, He will abandon you.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I asked this:
"But since you bring it up, where in Scripture is the teaching that man can "destroy" any of God's gifts?"
1 Tim 1:19
Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

2 Chron 15:2
If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you abandon Him, He will abandon you.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful....
9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
I'll still waiting for an answer to my request. None of these verses teach that one can destroy any of God's gifts.

And since you quoted 2 Chron 15:2, I suppose you're quite comfortable with accepting that Scripture is internally contradicted, huh.

Heb 13:5 - Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,”

Or has Heb 13:5 been cut out of your Bible, so as to avoid any appearance of contradiction?
 
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Hawkiz

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In Matthew 18 Jesus is teaching the Apostles, who were to spread the message that He is the Promised Messiah. He is not addressing loss of eternal security for those who confess Him as Savior, as clearly stated in the writings of the Apostle Paul.

In the Exodus, the Jews were obligated to continue under the Law of Moses. They did not. The redemption of the Hebrew folk depended upon THEIR obedience. Those who confess Jesus as Savior (Romans 10:8-13) are not saved based upon obedience as a people group; each comes to eternal security in response to the offer of salvation by Grace through Faith, the GIFT of God, not of works (obedience).

The response of the Hebrew folk to God's plan in accordance with Law is exactly the opposite of Grace through Faith in Jesus.

Romans 11:22. '22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.'

What happened to those who fell and faced the severity of God? Where did they fall from? Even if one wishes to argue that this verse somehow refers solely to the Hebrew people, and not to Christians, they still fell from something...they fell from His kindness.

And what is His kindness? It is forgiveness; being redeemed from our transgressions; being offered grace where no grace is deserved.

And what of those who are in His kindness? St. Paul calls them to continue in His kindness, which clearly denotes action on their part. What happens to them if they are 'cut off'? Who cuts them off? Why could they be cut off?

What are they 'cut off' from?

And how is obedience not part of faith? Can one truly be faithful and be disobedient?

Just a few of the questions that came to mind while reading your post...

Peace in Christ
 
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FreeGrace2

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I asked this:
"But since you bring it up, where in Scripture is the teaching that man can "destroy" any of God's gifts?"
Do you believe that faith is a gift of God?
Please answer my question before asking more questions. It's rude to ignore questions and then expect an answer from those whose questions you ignore.
 
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Thursday

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I asked this:
"But since you bring it up, where in Scripture is the teaching that man can "destroy" any of God's gifts?"

Please answer my question before asking more questions. It's rude to ignore questions and then expect an answer from those whose questions you ignore.


I did answer your question. The bible tells us that sin can destroy our faith.

Is faith a gift from God?
 
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Winken

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Romans 11:22. '22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.'

What happened to those who fell and faced the severity of God? Where did they fall from? Even if one wishes to argue that this verse somehow refers solely to the Hebrew people, and not to Christians, they still fell from something...they fell from His kindness.

And what is His kindness? It is forgiveness; being redeemed from our transgressions; being offered grace where no grace is deserved.

And what of those who are in His kindness? St. Paul calls them to continue in His kindness, which clearly denotes action on their part. What happens to them if they are 'cut off'? Who cuts them off? Why could they be cut off?

What are they 'cut off' from?

And how is obedience not part of faith? Can one truly be faithful and be disobedient?

Just a few of the questions that came to mind while reading your post...

Peace in Christ

The Holy Spirit points us to 2 Timothy 2:15, KJV and HCSB, critical to the Spiritual insight of Timothy, instructing him (and us) to "rightly divide the Word of Truth." Far too many passages in our Bible have been misinterpreted and therefore erroneously applied for the last 2,000 years. Readers of documents outside the Bible, produced by early Christian and other writers, have been led into that confusion.

Romans 11:22-23 is just one example among far too many. Here is the dynamic equivalent insight:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: for the Hebrew folk, who fell away, severity; but toward you, non-Christian Gentiles, the offer of Grace, if you respond to His offer*; otherwise, non-Christian Gentiles also shall lose the opportunity. Then the Jews, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be restored by and through Jesus, the Christ."

*Romans 10:8-13

 
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FreeGrace2

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I did answer your question. The bible tells us that sin can destroy our faith.
What verse actually says that?

Is faith a gift from God?
Not done with my question. Please provide a clear verse that supports your claim.

btw, your answer doesn't answer my question. The issue is salvation, not our faith.

The word "faith" used in that sense is a noun. It's the body of what we believe that is found in the Bible. Salvation includes a number of things that come with salvation.
 
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Hawkiz

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The Holy Spirit points us to 2 Timothy 2:15, KJV and HCSB, critical to the Spiritual insight of Timothy, instructing him (and us) to "rightly divide the Word of Truth." Far too many passages in our Bible have been misinterpreted and therefore erroneously applied for the last 2,000 years. Readers of documents outside the Bible, produced by early Christian and other writers, have been led into that confusion.

Romans 11:22-23 is just one example among far too many. Here is the dynamic equivalent insight:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: for the Hebrew folk, who fell away, severity; but toward you, non-Christian Gentiles, the offer of Grace, if you respond to His offer*; otherwise, non-Christian Gentiles also shall lose the opportunity. Then the Jews, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be restored by and through Jesus, the Christ."

*Romans 10:8-13

Except that the Scripture doesn't say what you want it to say here...adding in the phrases/words 'Hebrew folk', 'non-Christian Gentiles', 'the offer of Grace, if you respond to His offer', 'non-Christian Gentiles also shall lose the opportunity', and 'then the Jews, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be restored by and through Jesus, the Christ' are not found in the text.

But let's pretend for a moment that this is exactly the correct division of the Word: it still demonstrates that one can fall away; what else is falling away if not loss of salvation? Even in your 'dynamic equivalent insight', those who were in covenant with God fell away; and faced the severity of God. Not to mention that the simple context of the verses indicate that the audience St. Paul is addressing are already Christians, else the 'continue in His kindness' makes zero sense, so the speculation that this is to 'non-Christian Gentiles' is a plainly false one. Gentiles? Maybe so. Non-Christians? Clearly not. One can not continue in something that they are not yet a part of...

Your insight still fails to answer the list of questions posed to you above.

Where or what did they fall from?
What happens if they fail to continue in His kindness? What are they cut off from? Who does the cutting? Why?

Peace in Christ
 
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Winken

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Except that the Scripture doesn't say what you want it to say here...adding in the phrases/words 'Hebrew folk', 'non-Christian Gentiles', 'the offer of Grace, if you respond to His offer', 'non-Christian Gentiles also shall lose the opportunity', and 'then the Jews, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be restored by and through Jesus, the Christ' are not found in the text.

But let's pretend for a moment that this is exactly the correct division of the Word: it still demonstrates that one can fall away; what else is falling away if not loss of salvation? Even in your 'dynamic equivalent insight', those who were in covenant with God fell away; and faced the severity of God. Not to mention that the simple context of the verses indicate that the audience St. Paul is addressing are already Christians, else the 'continue in His kindness' makes zero sense, so the speculation that this is to 'non-Christian Gentiles' is a plainly false one. Gentiles? Maybe so. Non-Christians? Clearly not. One can not continue in something that they are not yet a part of...

Your insight still fails to answer the list of questions posed to you above.

Where or what did they fall from?
What happens if they fail to continue in His kindness? What are they cut off from? Who does the cutting? Why?

Peace in Christ

The dynamic equivalent embraces the whole of Christian Covenant theology. The central feature is audience / context. Romans 11:22-23 cannot, must not, contradict the infallible Truth of scripture. Interpolation, as a means of clarifying, of merging scriptural Truths as ONE Truth, presents to the reader blessed insights into comprehension of the purpose and intent of the passage, or of passages. 2 Timothy 2:15 embraces the Spiritual Key.

Interpolation
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
1
: to alter (as a text) by inserting new matter
2 : to insert between other things or parts

That's the secular definition. The Spiritual, scriptural definition is as follows:

Interpolation
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
1
: to merge (as a text) by inserting collaboratory insights
2 : to insert between a part or parts

Where or what did they fall from? The Hebrew folk, the Jews, fell away from the Abrahamic Covenant, then thereafter, the effort of God through Moses. Those who did so in the latter instance did not make it beyond the horror of the Sinai. They "fell back," apostatized (renounced, having received Grace in the Abrahamic Covenant, and having become aware of the impossibility of obeying Mosaic Law). They, having been chosen in the Abrahamic Covenant, rejected God's choice! That rejection pointed the way to Jesus, the Hebrew Messiah. They rejected Him.

Salvation by Grace through Faith was then offered to the whole of humankind through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. Were the Hebrew folk cut off forever? No! God has set aside the Jews as a people group, but never with regard to Grace through Faith for each individual person, Jew or Gentile. Romans 9 through 11 are Paul's lament, his heart's cry, for the Hebrew folk who continued in their rejection! He turns to the unsaved Gentiles in Acts 13:44-50 (while acknowledging that the restoration of the Hebrew folk, headquartered in Jerusalem, occupying 2.5 million square miles in the Middle East, is on the horizon). (That's my interpolation).

What happens if they fail to continue in His kindness? What are they cut off from? Who does the cutting? Why? "They" are those non-Christian Gentiles who fail prior to normal, natural death, to confess Jesus as Savior (Romans 10:8-13) and are thus removed from the sap of The Blessing, eventually their entire branch removed, cut off from Grace. Their failure results in God's "cutting," the denial of eternal life. The door totally, utterly closes on the opportunity when Jesus comes again (except for the remnant of the Jews described in The Tribulation).

The mixture of those passages specifically addressed to Christians with those specifically addressed to Jews has torn apart the simple, child-like Faith of those who confess Romans 10:8-13. They flock to Christian forums with questions like "Am I really saved? How do I know?" "But what about where it says _____________?" "I'm questioning my faith." "The Bible is so hard to understand." "I have decided to become a ____________." ......and so many, many more.

:idea: Time for evening Bible study, a small glass of orange juice (low acid), evening prayers, and bedtime.

:clap: :hug: :prayer: :wave:
 
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Thursday

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What verse actually says that?


Not done with my question. Please provide a clear verse that supports your claim.

btw, your answer doesn't answer my question. The issue is salvation, not our faith.

The word "faith" used in that sense is a noun. It's the body of what we believe that is found in the Bible. Salvation includes a number of things that come with salvation.


You are being very disingenuous.

The bible clearly tells us that we can reject our faith. Is faith a gift of God?

1 Tim 1:9
18Timothy, my child, I entrust you with this command in keeping with the previous prophecies about you, so that by them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience,which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
 
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Gabriel Anton

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Peace be with you.

Next lesson today.

So I showed in my previous posts that Salvation through Jesus Christ is by Covenant.

Now in the Book of John, it shows that the Covenant was ratified by Jesus Christ Himself in His Own Blood.

John C19
34 [o]but one soldier thrust his lance into His Side, and immediately Blood and Water flowed out.

So in order for anybody to obtain Salvation, one must enter into a Covenant of Salvation with Jesus Christ.

But for the Covenant between Him and you to be Legally Binding, you must agree to His Terms of Salvation. His Terms of Salvation is in the Word of God which is Himself.

Now all you need to worry about is how many breaches of the Word of God, Jesus Christ will permit you to commit before He enacts the Exclusion Clauses in the Word of God to terminate the Covenant of Salvation between Him and you. This is the Most Mysterious part to ascertain. You get this part wrong, you pay with your life and get condemned and damned to eternal death.

God bless you.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Except that the Scripture doesn't say what you want it to say here...adding in the phrases/words 'Hebrew folk', 'non-Christian Gentiles', 'the offer of Grace, if you respond to His offer', 'non-Christian Gentiles also shall lose the opportunity', and 'then the Jews, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be restored by and through Jesus, the Christ' are not found in the text.

But let's pretend for a moment that this is exactly the correct division of the Word: it still demonstrates that one can fall away; what else is falling away if not loss of salvation?
This is just an assumption. Why should it mean loss of salvation? Jesus was clear about what the phrase means in Luke 8:13, where "falling away" refers to "believing for a while".

And since there are no verses that teach that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation, that is only a wrong assumption.

The Bible teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). And the Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23). Those dots are 1 micron apart from each other. Not too difficult to connect those dots.
 
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