Iraq

Don't know about the whole Garden of Eden thing, but...

there is definitely plenty of signifigance to the fertile crescent, Babylon, Baghdad, etc.

The U.S. has a short memory, they've already forgotten the lessons of going into Lebanon.

Good morning!

God had promised the land to Abraham and his descendants.  Remember God telling Abraham to go outside and attempt to count the stars?  That's how many descendants he'll have?  Iraq, i.e., Babylon, was part of the real estate package that God promised Abraham and his descendants, along with what is now Iran, Saudi Arabia (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), Egypt and one other one I'll have to research and find. 

 

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Click to expand...

Even though the Jews had occupied these lands at one time, they've never fully controlled or have ruled them.  The time is coming when they will, according to God's covenant, which He never breaks.

I hope this vague answer helped?

Note though that this land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, and not specifically to the children of Israel.

Then keep in mind that Arabs are also children of Abraham. 

So even without the Jews, the Lord is still fulfilling his promise to Abraham. His promises never fail.

Descendants of Abraham can also be taken as those who believe in the Messiah, from the line of Judah, Jews and Gentiles alike.

You have to admit ~ with Jews and Gentiles alike, that's a whole lot of stars to be counting .

I don't buy the Arab theory, if they don't believe that Christ is the Messiah. If they believe he's just a nice prophet guy who performed some pretty neat miracles, that isn't enough to get to the "inheritance".

Sorry...I'm digressing. The subject was Iraq and the promised land, right?

*ugh*......me bad.

The Lord established a covenant with a conditional blessing upon the descendants of Israel.

He also made a promise to Abraham and a blessing upon his son Ishmael.

Genesis 15:2 already dealt with the issue of adopted children, this is how Abraham expected the promise to be fulfilled because they were childless. Verses 3 and 4 assure us that those who fulfill his promise shall be his genetic descendants.

Now the covenant with Israel must be fulfilled through Israel. The Lord doesn't accept any replacements. For the gentiles there is a new covenant, not a replacement of the old one.

If the Lord gave the land to an adopted slave child then he would be violating his word in Genesis 14:2-4. Israel also can not always possess the land because the covenant dictates blessings and curses. When they are cursed they can be driven from the land. So how to fulfill the promise to Abraham when Israel is not upholding the covenant with the Lord? Simple, he had 23 other children at least and one of them was especially blessed (His grandchild Edom was also special).

The Lord keeps his promises. Amen.

Interesting Talmid. Very interesting.. I wondered about Ishmael's role and his descendants.. I would be interested in you elaborating even more on this if you feel up to it.

Bless you,
Missy

Well, I shouldn't spend much time on the forums right now... but I'm an addict. 

Ishmael is definitely set up to be the Lord's comparison people and why it isn't enough to simply be blessed by the Lord. The genealogies for instance are quite interesting, because its a parallel of Edom's and Israel's. 12 tribes of Ishmael, especially blessed by the Lord.

The only real difference is the covenant, and this is what is important! Even though the covenant comes with both blessings and curses (for keeping or disobeying) and you would think a people that are only blessed would be better off. Because what is really important is the relationship the covenant establishes with the people of Israel.

Anyways I'll go into this in more detail probably in another week or so after I've moved. I hope this is enough to get you started though!

How can Ishmael's descendants be blessed by God when they're the "fathers" of Islam? That makes no sense to me, unless I'm reading you wrong Talmid.

Well it depends what the blessing was. I don't know what other blessings he may have gotten but this is what I remember:

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

So that isn't a blessing in the sense of "in God's favor" I'd say, but rather is a blessing in the sense of being given a positive promise.

I can't help keep thinking that Islam, while the dominant religion among Arabs, really hasn't been around long. It is widespread today due to political conquest. Before that, the Middle East had many religions, not insignificant among which was (and is) Christianity. Therefore I prefer to say that Isaac was the child of the Covenant, the promise and the inheritor of Abraham's "walk" with God, and Ishmael merely went the way of the world (though God has kept him in mind). 

The verses that Ruhama quoted, Genesis 16, and Genesis 25:12-18 all apply to Ishmael. Note that the Lord established the twelve tribes of Ishmael before he was even born. Coincidence? - coincidences aren't worth mentioning in the bible.

If Ishmael's children can't be blessed because some of them created Islam, how can any other pagan people be blessed?

The Lord is establishing to the people's in Genesis how to make a "Great Name". First we have the people of Babel who try to do it on their own, they fail miserably and to this day we have people failing at doing it on their own. So the Lord picks a member from the people of the "Name" (Semites - from the Hebrew word Shem: Name).

Ishmael is also another counterexample, is a blessing or gift from the Lord sufficient? No, only the covenantal relationship with the Lord is sufficient for his great work, to establish a great name for a people, and for salvation and deliverance.

The Ishmaelites shows the orphan nations (gentiles) that it isn't enough to be a "Prodigal Son" who receives an inheritance from the Lord (an impersonal, gift-giving G-d; which is coincidentally how Islam portrays G-d) and goes on with "their" destiny seeking their own way.

The covenant, even though it comes with blessings and curses is superior to just being blessed by the Lord because it means you go on as a part of "his" destiny.

As also pointed out, the Arabs give the Lord a way of fulfilling his promise to Abraham even when he must fulfill his curses to the Jews of the Covenant. A warning to all those in covenant with the Lord (New and/or Old) he will still uphold his end of the covenant and fulfill the promises with you.

My reply of the night, because I just can't keep away from this thread.

No. The Qur'an says that Jewish and Christian scriptures are corrupted, and that Jesus is not the Son of God. Along with a number of other things, the God portrayed in the Qur'an is more hostile, unforgiving and controlling than the God of the Bible. Definitely not the same God (although yes, Muslims believe it is).

No. This is what I used to think, but it isn't really true. I mean, that is if you are speaking in a strictly spiritual sense.

Mormons, Baha'is, Jehovah's Witnesses, plenty of people all think they worship the same God. But the important thing is the spirit behind it. Is it the true God, or is he merely given the same name?

Yes, and I'll add to what Ruhama said in that all those that Ruhama listed and Islam came out of the error of replacement theology.

Out of the sin which cut off the congregations of the Jews has come only a host of evils and deceits from the true church.

In my personal opinion one does not have to believe that Jesus is the son of God in order to worship the God of Abraham. I mean Abraham himself believed in God and didn't even know Jesus was the Messiah..why ? because Abraham was before Jesus' earthly time.

So to say Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham is not exactly accurate. Muslims just don't worship him in the way Christians and Jews feel is proper. That's different than not looking to the same God as the one true God..

I for one most definitely believe that Ishmael/Issac conflict is because Issac is the descendant from the Jewish line which God originally had planned but Abraham slept with the Egyptian hand maid woman named Hagar producing Ishmael. Ishmael was not the seed that the Jewish people were to be lineaged through, Issac was, but Ishmael was not forgotten and still promised a covenant with God. And that conflict comes about because Ishmael's people are Arabs.

If you take a look Genesis 16. You will see that the angel of the Lord spoke to Hagar and told her this:

9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Ishmael means "God Hears" and was intended to remind Hagar of God's intervention on her behalf. Ishmael is to become a wild man and shall dwell in the presence of all his brethern. The Hebrew actually means "in defiance/disreguard of" as shown in Genesis 25:18 and Deut. 21:16. The contexts shows a hostility on the part of Ishmael (and his descendants) toward his brethern (Issac and his descendants) and even among Ishmael's own people ( CLUE CLUE.. ERRRRR SOUND FAMILAR ???) . All this began the Jewish and Arab conflict, due to an act of the flesh of Abraham.

In today's society, many people do not wish to accept this because they cannot see past some of the ways Arabs live and most definitley Christians and Jews because of the hostility that lies way back to the days of Issac and Ishmael. They cannot accept that God would make a promise to an Arab. Well the fact is Arabs are indeed descendants of Abraham and all you have to do is read the bible to find that out. Reguardless of how one views the Arabs, they too are children of a covenant with God..and YES that's right the God of Abrabham. We all look at the Arabs and think of terriorism and so forth and think, "Oh no, God doesn't have anything to do with them..not OUR God". Well God does have something to do with them indeed since he made the covenant to their mother Hagar.

I mean hasn't anyone noticed how Arabs look ? Abraham was a Jew and the handmaid Hagar was Egyptian. Now think to what a Jew and a Egyptian look like (and I mean a Jew from Israel and a Egyptian from Africa, not what we see in America today, I mean people from the actual land)..

Now think, what kind of child would they produce ? What would they look like.. And darn if they don't look like ARABS! Ever notice the features of an Arab ? if you look closely you can see why they have their olive skin tone (Egyptian genes) and you if you look REALLY closely you can see the Jewish genes in them as well especially in the facial features.

Take a look at these pictures:

These are 2 Arabs:





These are Jews in a synaguoge in Israel:
 

They almost look like the same sort of people..funny..

It's easier for most to put God in a box to try to rationalize our small understanding of him, and disreguard facts that are starring us in the face.. Why ? Because we cannot accept something outside of the box we have put God in. But God cannot be put into a small convient box to make one's conscience feel better. He is a mystery to many and will remain to be so until he does otherwise.

So instead of reacting poorly to Arabs (because of what you see in the news media) perhaps it may be more wise to understand that they too have a covenant with God through Ishmael..perhaps we don't understand why but that covenant does exist.. and not all Arabs are these terroristic animals that the media makes them out to be..

 Note: This is not directed at any one person. It is to show another view point of a subject to anyone willing to look at it, if you aren't then simply disreguard it. If anyone takes offense take it up with God please because he made the covenant with them, I didn't. I simply pointed it out.  



Missy