Is the power of Testimony evidence of God?

God for reasons known to Him, has chosen not to compel people to believe either that He exists, or that Jesus Christ is His beloved Son in this present age. He has so ordered providence that there will always be the possibility for people to deny His existence and His work in this world in this present age.

So while it is possible for the radical change in people's live to serve as a sort of sign post pointing to Him, this will never serve as some sort of undeniable proof of His existence. It is always possible to chalk it up to something else i.e. and exercise of the will to change etc. etc.

However remember this, that when this age comes to an end, and Christ returns in triumphant procession to judge the quick and the dead, then shall come the time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. At that time, it will be impossible to deny the existence of God or the divinity of the Son.

anonymous person said:

God for reasons known to Him, has chosen not to compel people to believe either that He exists, or that Jesus Christ is His beloved Son in this present age. He has so ordered providence that there will always be the possibility for people to deny His existence and His work in this world in this present age.

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Why would that be a form of compelling? Does the sun compel you into forming a belief that it exist? Simply because existence something is conclusive and indisputable, doesn't mean that it's a form of compulsion. Hence your rationalization doesn't really seem to work.

anonymous person said:

However remember this, that when this age comes to an end, and Christ returns in triumphant procession to judge the quick and the dead, then shall come the time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. At that time, it will be impossible to deny the existence of God or the divinity of the Son

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So, why can't we believe then, when better evidence is presented? Why structure the entire belief system to the likeness of some of the best scams we know?

devolved said:

Why would that be a form of compelling? Does the sun compel you into forming a belief that it exist? Simply because existence something is conclusive and indisputable, doesn't mean that it's a form of compulsion. Hence your rationalization doesn't really seem to work.

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I'm having trouble understanding you. Maybe you could rephrase what you are trying to say.

devolved said:

So, why can't we believe then, when better evidence is presented? Why structure the entire belief system to the likeness of some of the best scams we know?

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You are using the term "believe" in the sense of "trusting and hoping in someone or something" which obviously will not apply when you see Christ as conquering King, for who hopes or trusts in that which he sees or for that which there is incontrovertible and undeniable evidence? That is why you will not be able to believe on Christ for the remission of your sins on the day of judgment. It will be too late then, for God is not interested in you giving some mere intellectual assent to His existence, but that you come to desire to enter into a saving relationship with Him and this can only be done on this side of things.

As Ravi Zacharias once said, "God has put enough into this world to make faith in Him a most reasonable thing, but has left enough out to make it impossible to live by sheer reason alone."

Each day we are choosing where we will spend eternity by how we choose to relate to Jesus Christ and His commandments.

You want to talk about evidence? The Pharisees saw Jesus raise people from the dead and perform all sorts of miracles and yet still refused to believe in Him and put their hope and trust in Him and follow Him and live for Him. They had been given evidence but were evil and jealous of Jesus and so attributed the things He did not to the power of God, but to demons. They were not willing to believe.

And think about it devolved. Would you really want to spend an eternity with Jesus? Would not heaven be miserable for you? Would not heaven be hell for you? Jesus would never ask that you spend eternity with Him or compel you to do so against your will. God hides Himself from them that hate Him and reveals Himself to them that love Him and want to be with Him.

anonymous person said:

God for reasons known to Him, has chosen not to compel people to believe either that He exists, or that Jesus Christ is His beloved Son in this present age.

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Mind control. Does that not make your theology morally bankrupt, if one is to be held accountable for what one believes?

He has so ordered providence that there will always be the possibility for people to deny His existence and His work in this world in this present age.

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I do not deny it, I am simply not convinced.

So while it is possible for the radical change in people's live to serve as a sort of sign post pointing to Him, this will never serve as some sort of undeniable proof of His existence. It is always possible to chalk it up to something else i.e. and exercise of the will to change etc. etc.

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Self-deception is sufficient to explain every religious belief that I have been presented with.

However remember this, that when this age comes to an end,

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and Christ returns in triumphant procession to judge the quick and the dead,

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Maybe he will give it two thumbs up.

then shall come the time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

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With that mind control power of his, that should be easy.

At that time, it will be impossible to deny the existence of God or the divinity of the Son.

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But right now, you can't show that your 'god' is more than a character in a book, correct?

gradyll said:

this book may be a good read:

https://vyrso.com/product/25291/the...st-explores-the-evidence-of-transformed-lives

investigative journalist lee strobel, examines testimonies of changed lives as to the power of religion in the world...as a good thing.

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The power of religion is not disputed. However, as they (the religious) cannot all be right (and they may all be wrong), this really speaks of the power of religion to deceive.

anonymous person said:

I'm having trouble understanding you. Maybe you could rephrase what you are trying to say.

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You were insisting that God is hiding because He doesn't want to compel anyone into belief.

I'm asking as to why you would be thinking that it would be a terrible thing when it comes to our personal judgement (apparently Satan still could rebel fine even when he didn't have option of not believing)?

anonymous person said:

You are using the term "believe" in the sense of "trusting and hoping in someone or something" which obviously will not apply when you see Christ as conquering King, for who hopes or trusts in that which he sees or for that which there is incontrovertible and undeniable evidence?

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No, I was actually using it in an existential plausibility and likelihood sense. Let's say that someone said that you are an alien child of Uhzarm the Great of the planet of Erdom 100 billion lightyears away. Why would it be too late for you to trust that claim when the plausibility of it materializes with the full force of the evidence?

How can we trust the claims like the above when the plausibility hasn't been demonstrated?

anonymous person said:

That is why you will not be able to believe on Christ for the remission of your sins on the day of judgment. It will be too late then, for God is not interested in you giving some mere intellectual assent to His existence, but that you come to desire to enter into a saving relationship with Him and this can only be done on this side of things.

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You can't trust something until you give it an intellectual assent of existence. Hence your above assertion makes zero sense.

anonymous person said:

As Ravi Zacharias once said, "God has put enough into this world to make faith in Him a most reasonable thing, but has left enough out to make it impossible to live by sheer reason alone."

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I'd say that's debatable. And I'm either a lunatic, a liar, or I'm correct . Or perhaps I am simply ignorant of this evidence or interpret it through the filters of my own upbringing, in which case it would actually create further problems for Ravi's assertion and drive my point even further, and make your God's expectations even more unreasonable, which would further put in question whether such God is plausible.

anonymous person said:

You want to talk about evidence? The Pharisees saw Jesus raise people from the dead and perform all sorts of miracles and yet still refused to believe in Him and put their hope and trust in Him and follow Him and live for Him. They had been given evidence but were evil and jealous of Jesus and so attributed the things He did not to the power of God, but to demons. They were not willing to believe.

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How do you know that Jesus did any of that, and what Pharisees did or didn't do? So, let me see your logical pattern here:

1) You are asked to present better evidence that God exists
2) You say that the Bible says that such evidence wouldn't matter because...
3) The Bible says that many people saw that evidence and still didn't believe

It's sort of like me saying... hey I can jump over a house. And when asked to demonstrate it, I'd say... "hey, I've done it before and people still didn't believe me, so why would you believe me? Either believe me or not based on what I'm saying to you. I'm testing your trust levels here."

But, the trustworthiness is build on a framework of plausibility. That's how reliable methods work as far as what and who we do find trustworthy and what and who we don't.