Our lives matter.

AirPo said:

Never was.

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Saying "A big FU" to black people isn't racist? What a world we live in

Gadarene said:

You've not made any distinction between the two other than to assert it! My goodness, what an idle argument you have here



It's scarcely a surprise to me that people agitating for equality are going to be completely hypocritical.

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But promise you won't use that as an excuse to forgo efforts to bring about greater equality.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

But promise you won't use that as an excuse to forgo efforts to bring about greater equality.

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Which efforts, specifically? I'm not convinced BLM will bring us equality and I favour a more inclusive approach without a completely whacko ideology tacked on.

But that's racist, apparently.

AirPo said:

Of course you we're not responding to my post.

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The statement applied to both of you

They used to call black people uppity.

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Lol, amateurish - don't you people ever get tired of insinuating racism when you're losing the argument?

I have no problem with wanting equality. What I have a problem with is the constant hypocrisy and goalpost moving. First All Lives Matter is racist, then our lives matter isn't. Make up your minds already

I forgot to add that my other dislike about BLM is when they defend someone who resisted arrest. If it was someone who did not resist arrest, I'd be more inclined to to care more.

Gadarene said:

Which efforts, specifically? I'm not convinced BLM will bring us equality and I favour a more inclusive approach without a completely whacko ideology tacked on.

But that's racist, apparently.

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If someone reflexively resists all efforts to bring about greater equality between the races and holds out for only the one, perfect method without any flaws before doing anything . . . . I will continue to suspect such a person is part of the problem. Such a person is, likely, racist.

The Black Lives Matter movement will not bring us equality all by itself, it is a healthy response to a fundamental problem in our society. Sure, there are bad apples that associate themselves with the movement.

There are also bad apples that some racists will automatically associate with the movement that actually have nothing to do with the movement.

One might as well tar Christianity with the KKK. They claim to be Christians, after all. Is that line of reasoning valid? Of course not. Lets stop using that line of reasoning with BLM.

AirPo said:

I've said nothing about racism.

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No, you just heavily implied it by referring to something I'd said with a classic example of racist description of black people. If you thought it had nothing to do with what I said why bring it up?

Disingenuity on disingenuity.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

If someone reflexively resists all efforts to bring about greater equality between the races and holds out for only the one, perfect method without any flaws before doing anything . . . . I will continue to suspect such a person is part of the problem. Such a person is, likely, racist.

The Black Lives Matter movement will not bring us equality all by itself, it is a healthy response to a fundamental problem in our society. Sure, there are bad apples that associate themselves with the movement.

There are also bad apples that some racists will automatically associate with the movement that actually have nothing to do with the movement.

One might as well tar Christianity with the KKK. They claim to be Christians, after all. Is that line of reasoning valid? Of course not. Lets stop using that line of reasoning with BLM.

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Nice tangent and all but really I'm concerned that we won't actually fix a problem of racialised double standards with more of the same. The constant appeals to "white privilege" or "white fragility" would be examples of this, as would the reluctance to call an attack with an explicitly racist motivation of killing white people "racist".

AirPo said:

Because "agitating for equality" is a heavily implied racist description of black people the way "uppity" used to be.

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Thanks for admitting you were in fact talking about racism.

And pahahaha, no, no it really isn't. I suppose this is the same clairvoyance that allows you to presume "all lives matter" is "a big FU" to black people but you saying "our lives matter" is totally not the same!

Paul of Eugene OR said:

If someone reflexively resists all efforts to bring about greater equality between the races and holds out for only the one, perfect method without any flaws before doing anything . . . . I will continue to suspect such a person is part of the problem. Such a person is, likely, racist.

The Black Lives Matter movement will not bring us equality all by itself, it is a healthy response to a fundamental problem in our society. Sure, there are bad apples that associate themselves with the movement.

There are also bad apples that some racists will automatically associate with the movement that actually have nothing to do with the movement.

One might as well tar Christianity with the KKK. They claim to be Christians, after all. Is that line of reasoning valid? Of course not. Lets stop using that line of reasoning with BLM.

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I edited out of respect for the author of this thread.

i'm posting this instead:

AirPo said:

"All Lives Matter" came across as a big F U <insert fovorite Afriican racial slur here>.

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Interesting, I don't recall that. Do you have a clip of that?

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Gadarene said:

Thanks for admitting you were in fact talking about racism.

And pahahaha, no, no it really isn't. I suppose this is the same clairvoyance that allows you to presume "all lives matter" is "a big FU" to black people but you saying "our lives matter" is totally not the same!

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I think the issue you may be missing is that Air does not consider himself racist. Therefore his Our lives matter cannot be a racist F U to the black folks because he's not racist.

Whereas the All lives matter thing that some folks like are racist because the people that day it are racist.

Air is judging people's motives. Since he knows his motives a good it's not racist. Then he goes on to judge others motives without a clue as to the hearts of the people who believe all live matter. Its the typical "my motives are pure, yours are not" syndrome.

By they way, we all call into this often enough. We all,love to think of ourselves as good people and therefore have the purest of motives. Since I am good and you disagree with me therefore you are bad.

That's why the judgment of the heart should be left to God. We can judge action and point to specific action as being wrong if it violates scripture. But we cannot judge people's motives. We love to try, but it's not our right to do so. That's God's prerogative since he knows the motives.

I applaud Air OP. We do need to,do a better job of walking in in each other's shoes. I need to be more understanding of the complaints,of the black community. And they need to be more understanding of the reasons why we might be concerned if approached by a group of black males. Only then can we begin to break down the barriers.
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Gadarene said:

How? Be specific, don't assert.

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Hard to point to something specific since it doesn't appear to be related to what I said. I cited cases that indicated ALM was a response to BLM. And you started talking about how a handful of ALM proponents did something bad. That's a different/free-speech conversation.

Gadarene said:

You can say that, but you haven't actually demonstrated anything.

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I've demonstrated your lack of basic listening skills.

Gadarene said:

Frankly, I get tired of the rules of discussion of this topic changing by the day. There is no bloody difference between Our Lives Matter and All Lives Matter other than your attempt to tar the latter by association with a few whackos ("the history of it"? Please!) - the same approach that BLM fans whine about when done to them.

If you're serious about this equality thing, drop the dishonesty and the double standards. People might have a bit more support for your point of view that way.

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You're seeing double standards where there are none. Again, you might consider giving a thoughtful hearing to what BLM has to say.

Gadarene said:

And the op was a lot more inclusive than what has previously been permitted.

And only with this sort of nonsensical rhetoric would saying that everyone's life matters be considered racist

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It's about context. Specifically, the fact that this:

Gadarene said:

It's saying that no-one's lives should be harmed and that's worth aiming for.

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...Just ain't true. In almost every context you hear #AllLivesMatter, it's meant as a response to #BlackLivesMatter. And as responses go, it's... Well, a mess. Its closest relatives are probably things like Straight Pride.



The point of #BLM is that black lives should matter (just like all other lives), but don't, and therefore deserve special attention to get them up to the same point as everyone else. #AllLivesMatters ignores that completely, completely ignoring the issue.

Gadarene said:

Ahhhh ok. So because a handful of ALM people did something bad, we can assume ALM is problematic in itself.

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What context have your heard #AllLivesMatter that isn't intended as a dismissive response to #BlackLivesMatter?

Willtor said:

Hard to point to something specific since it doesn't appear to be related to what I said. I cited cases that indicated ALM was a response to BLM. And you started talking about how a handful of ALM proponents did something bad. That's a different/free-speech conversation.

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No, it isn't. It's exactly the flaw in the statement you made. Are the ALM types who went around defacing posters representative? (First I've heard of them). How is that any different to how BLM is (apparently not to be) treated?

I've demonstrated your lack of basic listening skills.

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More like demonstrated your lack of thinking skills.

You're seeing double standards where there are none. Again, you might consider giving a thoughtful hearing to what BLM has to say.

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The end is not the issue. It's the means of getting to that end and often the framing of the problem that is the issue.

The Cadet said:

It's about context. Specifically, the fact that this:

...Just ain't true. In almost every context you hear #AllLivesMatter, it's meant as a response to #BlackLivesMatter. And as responses go, it's... Well, a mess. Its closest relatives are probably things like Straight Pride.

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Given that most identity politics solutions are an even bigger (and divisive mess) something a bit less divisive is not a bad idea.

*daft cartoon*

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The comeback to that is both black and white people suffer the issue of houses being on fire but for some reason people think we'll fix the problem by ignoring one group of victims of the problem and issuing collective guilt to them at the same time.

The point of #BLM is that black lives should matter (just like all other lives), but don't, and therefore deserve special attention to get them up to the same point as everyone else. #AllLivesMatters ignores that completely, completely ignoring the issue.

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Not really. I've heard of similar cases affecting white people. Their names aren't totemic like Tamir Rice, Eric Garner etc. No-one knows who they are. Addressing the problem of police brutality entire rather than singling out how it affects one subset of the population isn't going to solve the problem.

What context have your heard #AllLivesMatter that isn't intended as a dismissive response to #BlackLivesMatter?

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If the aim is something more inclusive and less ideologically dogmatic than BLM then there is no problem with being dismissive of it.